HAL no longer requires formal dress

[LMaxwell]

Thanks L Maxwell. Is there a source that will provide information on the percentage/number of cruise line staff to passengers? Do you think the number of HAL crew has declined? POA was responding to Lisa's statement that "HAL has the least amount of crew of any cruise line". Not sure if this is based on her personal opinion and experience and/or data/information available to her.

 

My current understanding is that PSR gives one an idea of how crowded a given ship will be rather than the gross tonnage. PSR space ratio is the gross tonnage divided by the passenger capacity. The higher the number, the more space per passenger. How crowded you will feel also depends upon passenger flow - - the movement and distribution of the passengers throughout the ship.

Its impossible for me to answer if I think crew has declined. A ship can only hold a finite number of crew. If more crew are needed in engineering, perhaps some crew from deck maintenance would be removed. The overall number may be constant, but the job function shifts.

 

I think the closest way to figure out an accurate number would be to find the ships capacity, or even better, actual number of guests on a sailing, and then look for a fact sheet that may break down crew by areas; XXX wait staff, XXX housekeeping, XXX kitchen, etc. Add up guest facing or hotel services. The industry like to quote the pax to crew number using overall crew because it makes the number look better. Surely there is not only 2.5 guests per crew member if you take into account only guest facing services. My guess would be somewhere closer to 5 - 6 guests per crew member in that circumstance off the top of my head.

 

You are right, PSR does give a rough metric to compare ships, but stateroom size comes in to play too. For instance Carnival has very large standard cabins AND low PSR. This means that public space are disproportionately small to compensate for the large rooms. Royal Caribbean standard cabins are small, and their PSR's not drastically better than Carnivals, but their public spaces are much larger to make up for the small cabins. Just another way PSR doesn't tell the whole story. It's important to see how that space is being used. A tall enclosed atrium really pumps up a PSR number; but if it is just enclosed "air" and can't be utilized it's a waste.

 

very interesting stuff. Sorry to divert off topic. If anyone wishes to discuss these items more feel free to start a fresh topic and I'll post there.

[dakrewser]

I still think the majority of HAL cruisers appreciate the traditional approach. A vocal minority is still a minority. They shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us.

 

And what do you base this on? What are your marketing/survey credentials??

 

HAL employs a number of people whose job it is to fill their ships by defining features and other elements that will appeal to a large enough group of people so that they can sell out and still make a profit.

 

If you have data which shows that relaxing the dress code will lower their profit, then I'm sure they'd be happy to listen to you.

[qsuzi]

Its impossible for me to answer if I think crew has declined. A ship can only hold a finite number of crew. If more crew are needed in engineering, perhaps some crew from deck maintenance would be removed. The overall number may be constant, but the job function shifts.

 

I think the closest way to figure out an accurate number would be to find the ships capacity, or even better, actual number of guests on a sailing, and then look for a fact sheet that may break down crew by areas; XXX wait staff, XXX housekeeping, XXX kitchen, etc. Add up guest facing or hotel services. The industry like to quote the pax to crew number using overall crew because it makes the number look better. Surely there is not only 2.5 guests per crew member if you take into account only guest facing services. My guess would be somewhere closer to 5 - 6 guests per crew member in that circumstance off the top of my head.

 

You are right, PSR does give a rough metric to compare ships, but stateroom size comes in to play too. For instance Carnival has very large standard cabins AND low PSR. This means that public space are disproportionately small to compensate for the large rooms. Royal Caribbean standard cabins are small, and their PSR's not drastically better than Carnivals, but their public spaces are much larger to make up for the small cabins. Just another way PSR doesn't tell the whole story. It's important to see how that space is being used. A tall enclosed atrium really pumps up a PSR number; but if it is just enclosed "air" and can't be utilized it's a waste.

 

very interesting stuff. Sorry to divert off topic. If anyone wishes to discuss these items more feel free to start a fresh topic and I'll post there.

 

I found your comments very interesting and helpful. Thank YOU!

[RedneckBob]

OK bob - let me explain it to you.

 

You can take any old ship to the isle of wherever. But how you get there and the experience on board differentiates one cruise line from another.

 

For many of us, one of the important aspects of the cruise experience is the evening dinner. Some even choose the cruise line based on the food and the dining experience. And many of us feel that the ambiance of a restaurant is an important part of the meal. Ambiance is created in many ways. For example, drinking wine from a wine glass is different from drinking wine from a solo cup. Roast pig served on china is different from eating it off of paper plates. And yes, being seated in a room with people dressed in finery is a different experience than being seated with in a room with people in shorts and tank tops.

 

 

For a long time, HAL has advertised itself as having a certain ambiance. Then, while it still advertised as such, it allowed that situation to change. Now, apparently, HAL is changing how it is defining itself. And some of us are disappointed in that.

 

Now I am guessing that you might not be a person who cares that much about ambiance. That food is food. And a ship is just a way to get from port A to port B. That's OK. That is you.

 

But for many others, that is what the fuss is about.

 

Thanks; That make's sense, I think

[RedneckBob]

I think it all comes down to people needing something to gripe about. Either they think so highly of themselves that they are better than the rest of us or more likely, they think that dressing up gives them an appearance of class and an added festivity. Frankly, I could care less. Let them do what they want. We will do the same. The ports are what I want to see and a cruise is the easiest way to do that and cover as much territory as possible in a short amount of time. OH, and don't bring up smoking as that one will get your head cut off sooner than you can blink. There are rabid topics out there that people are passionate about. Dress Code, Smoking, Wine or Beverage Cards and of course Politics and Religion. If we stay away from those, we might just be able to go on our cruise without a problem.

 

You aren't the only one that pays more attention to the itinerary than some others. Having never cruised on HAL before, I can't provide you with an opinion of the food or entertainment but in most cases, you'll always find something you can eat. I'm usually too tired after touring all day to bother with the entertainment (:-). I wish you a wonderful cruise and I have to tell you I find your posts refreshing!

Karen

 

Now that sounds right.

 

I guess people having nothing to complain when it comes to erotic ports of call except maybe me.

 

On our last Caribbean cruise someone ask me which island I did not like. I said St Maarten. Someone told me to go to Orient Beach and once I got there for the next two hours my eyes kept popping out of my sockets :D !

[Hlitner]

It is predictable that many long time HAL fans will not like the dress code changes nor will many of them like the future smoking bans (which will eventually happen). But HAL can no longer depend on these ole folks to fill all their ships. And even some of the other more expensive cruise lines (such as Oceania) do not even have formal nights and they seem to do quite fine. DW and I love to dress-up on HAL and probably would continue to do so as long as its a viable option. But we have met an awful lot of classy folks who just do not want to dress-up when on vacation. And our culture (in the US) has changed to more informal dress...especially in places like CA, FL and TX.

 

The last time we were on HAL (Oosterdam) we dined with a bank executive who, like moi, was dressed in a Tux on the formal night. He told the table that he still dressed-up because his DW insisted (which got a laugh) but would prefer to never wear a jacket and tie while on vacation. His point was that he had to dress in a suit ever word day, and just wanted to be more relaxed on vacation. Another professional at our table said that he only owned a single suit, because in Southern CA nobody dresses-up for work or play. Times have changed and HAL needs to change with the times if they want to survive.

 

Hank

[qsuzi]

It is predictable that many long time HAL fans will not like the dress code changes nor will many of them like the future smoking bans (which will eventually happen). But HAL can no longer depend on these ole folks to fill all their ships. And even some of the other more expensive cruise lines (such as Oceania) do not even have formal nights and they seem to do quite fine. DW and I love to dress-up on HAL and probably would continue to do so as long as its a viable option. But we have met an awful lot of classy folks who just do not want to dress-up when on vacation. And our culture (in the US) has changed to more informal dress...especially in places like CA, FL and TX.

 

The last time we were on HAL (Oosterdam) we dined with a bank executive who, like moi, was dressed in a Tux on the formal night. He told the table that he still dressed-up because his DW insisted (which got a laugh) but would prefer to never wear a jacket and tie while on vacation. His point was that he had to dress in a suit ever word day, and just wanted to be more relaxed on vacation. Another professional at our table said that he only owned a single suit, because in Southern CA nobody dresses-up for work or play. Times have changed and HAL needs to change with the times if they want to survive.

 

Hank

 

Well said.

[taxmantoo]

There are other options within the Carnival family ...

 

Princess still has a formal night with recommended dress:

Formal

When formal nights are held, please observe the dress code in the Traditional Dining and Anytime Dining venues for the enjoyment of all our guests.

•Evening gowns and cocktail dresses for women

•Tuxedos, dinner jackets or dark suits with a tie for men

 

Maybe they will eventually change, but they are holding the line for now. We have been on Princess a few times (3) and can vouch for them enforcing the dress codes in the MDR on formal nights.

[iancal]

I can relate to that. Wore a suit most days at work. Vacation and wearing suits did not belong in the same sentence.

 

Only difference,,,it was DW who first suggested we give up the pretend nights and do our own thing. We are both so glad that we did.

 

Anyone who thinks that HAL made this decision because of a vocal minority of customers is simply misreading the tea leaves. Get a new crystal ball!

 

HAL is a business and I have no doubt that this change is a solid reflection of their surveys and of industry trends.

[cruz chic]

I'm not opposed to the so called change in dress code. What I'm opposed to is that Hal does not go one way or another. They need to stop being wishy washy and end formal dress altogether. Al this is doing is making the water muddy and making it more difficult to pack. If these surveys are telling them the "most" people prefer casual why not commit to that 100%?

Edited August 11, 2015 by cruz chic

[3rdGenCunarder]

It is predictable that many long time HAL fans will not like the dress code changes nor will many of them like the future smoking bans (which will eventually happen). But HAL can no longer depend on these ole folks to fill all their ships. And even some of the other more expensive cruise lines (such as Oceania) do not even have formal nights and they seem to do quite fine. DW and I love to dress-up on HAL and probably would continue to do so as long as its a viable option. But we have met an awful lot of classy folks who just do not want to dress-up when on vacation. And our culture (in the US) has changed to more informal dress...especially in places like CA, FL and TX.

 

The last time we were on HAL (Oosterdam) we dined with a bank executive who, like moi, was dressed in a Tux on the formal night. He told the table that he still dressed-up because his DW insisted (which got a laugh) but would prefer to never wear a jacket and tie while on vacation. His point was that he had to dress in a suit ever word day, and just wanted to be more relaxed on vacation. Another professional at our table said that he only owned a single suit, because in Southern CA nobody dresses-up for work or play. Times have changed and HAL needs to change with the times if they want to survive.

 

Hank

 

Yes, many places are more informal than they used to be. And I can see why HAL would want to join that trend and try to appeal to a wider range of passengers.

 

So they changed the dress code in a more informal direction and at the same time changed "formal" nights to "gala" nights where people "dress to impress." I do not mean to insult the people who want to go with the more casual dress, but, really, is anyone impressed by Dockers and a golf shirt? Does anyone think that's gala attire?

 

My complaint is not about what people wear. It's about HAL's marketing people sending ludicrous mixed messages.

Edited August 11, 2015 by 3rdGenCunarder

[POA1]

Good morning POA. Did you really mean HAL has higher passenger to crew ratios (PSR) as I've read on the HAL board and website? I've read so much on this board from HAL regulars about how service has declined and that there are fewer staff. Are HAL PSR's lower than in past years?

 

PSR on the last 3 ships we most recently sailed is: Veendam 35, Crown Princess 31, and RCI Jewel OTS 36. We had much better service in the Lido on the Crown than on the Veendam and Jewel and overall comparable service in the MDR. Overall, service between cruise lines was comparable and our room steward on the Jewel was the best/among the best we ever had.

 

I meant what I said. There are quite a few cruise lines with higher passenger to crew ratios. Here are the numbers. The first number is the pax/crew at double/standard occupancy. The second number is the ratio at maximum occupancy. For some cruise lines, the second number would be more indicative of reality. I'm talking about lines like Disney with lots of children in cabins, or Carnival and Royal Caribbean, which often have occupancy rates that average higher than two people in a cabin.

 

LINE - Pax/Crew Ratio Std Occupancy - Pax/Crew Ratio Max Occupancy

 

AIDA - 3.86 - 4.45

 

AZAMARA - 1.82 - 1.96

 

CARNIVAL - 2.46 - 3.07

 

CELEBRITY - 2.19 - 2.54

 

COSTA - 2.60 - 3.28

 

CRYSTAL - 1.75 - 1.95

 

CUNARD - 2.05 - 1.95

 

DISNEY - 1.77 - 2.67

 

HOLLAND AMERICA - 2.29 - 2.79

 

MSC - 2.53 - 3.09

 

NORWEGIAN - 2.52 - 3.17

 

OCEANIA - 1.67 - 2.05

 

P&O (UK) - 2.41 - 2.76

 

P&O (AUS) - 2.18 - 2.62

 

PRINCESS - 2.4 - 2.47

 

REGENT - 1.55 - 1.68

 

ROYAL CARIBBEAN - 2.44 - 2.95

 

SEABOURN - 1.34 - 1.39

 

SEADREAM - 1.16 - 1.16

 

SILVERSEA - 1.36 - 1.52

 

Since I'm pretty sure that someone's going to want to argue with these numbers, I figured it would be best to show my work. There's a PDF at the link below which shows you everyone's ships, the numbers used in the calculations, and - as an added bonus for you, the loyal reader - there's also the space ratio for the ships as well.

 

http://www.instituteofcheer.com/img/Cruise-Ship-Data-2015-08-11.pdf

 

For what it's worth, HAL's ratio was 2.2 when we first started sailing with them 20+ years ago.

Edited August 11, 2015 by POA1

[iancal]

Who cares about official passenger ratios? They are misleading and do NOT tell the whole story.

 

We care about the service that we get. Period. If the service is good, we are happy. HAL may have great passenger ratios (I really do not know) but their MDR service, their bar service, and their pool service certainly do not reflect this.

 

Even if this ratio was adjusted to show customer facing ratio instead of total onboard employees it still would not tell the real story.

 

It is not only about passenger ratios. It is also about on board management, staff deployment, customer service training, staff morale. This is where the rubber hits the road.

Edited August 11, 2015 by iancal

[Wakepatrol]

Yes, many places are more informal than they used to be. And I can see why HAL would want to join that trend and try to appeal to a wider range of passengers.

 

So they changed the dress code in a more informal direction and at the same time changed "formal" nights to "gala" nights where people "dress to impress." I do not mean to insult the people who want to go with the more casual dress, but, really, is anyone impressed by Dockers and a golf shirt? Does anyone think that's gala attire?

 

My complaint is not about what people wear. It's about HAL's marketing people sending ludicrous mixed messages.

 

 

 

Yes yes yes. That's the whole problem in a nutshell

[cruz chic]

Good info POA and thx for showing your work ;).

[cruisemom42]

How do you know it's the preference of the greater number of HAL's clientele! If there was a survey on this by HAL (or you), we didn't receive one! In fact, seven cruises in the past year and five of those on HAL, we didn't see or hear anyone moaning about Formal Nights. Actually, everyone seemed to enjoy themselves wearing their Suits and Cocktail Dresses dancing in the Ocean Bar, BB King, the Black and White Ball, etc. In addition, the majority also dressed very nice on Cruise Casual nights (not as dressy as Formal Nights but very nice)!

 

Most changes happen because of a minority being vocal and not the other way around!

 

How do we know that people haven't been making comments about this for some time on their end-of-cruise surveys?

 

There are many people -- myself included -- who will always comply with the dress code but who might not be unhappy if it were relaxed somewhat.

 

Looking at it logically, I can't imagine HAL having any motivation for making such a change absent clear passenger preference for it. It has always been maintained on these boards that cruise lines keep formal nights around because they are a money maker (more people have photos done, more people order wine and other drinks, more visits to the salon for hair and nails, etc.....).

 

Are you suggesting that booking a cruise for my own personal pleasure is wrong?

 

It's not a to hell with anybody else mentality, it's a 'I do me, you do you' mentality.

 

......

 

And please spare me the strawman garbage about people coming to MDR in bathrobes or sweaty workout clothes. Never saw it on any line, any ship, in 25+ years.

 

 

Actually, I find it a bit sad that more and more we seem to be a 'collection of individuals' rather than a 'society' (in the good sense, not like "high society"). People seem intent on finding small differences that divide them rather than larger ones -- like love of travel or of cruising -- that could unite them.

 

For the record, my parents sat next to someone in overalls on formal night on a HAL cruise once.... :eek:

[qsuzi]

I meant what I said. There are quite a few cruise lines with higher passenger to crew ratios. Here are the numbers. The first number is the pax/crew at double/standard occupancy. The second number is the ratio at maximum occupancy. For some cruise lines, the second number would be more indicative of reality. I'm talking about lines like Disney with lots of children in cabins, or Carnival and Royal Caribbean, which often have occupancy rates that average higher than two people in a cabin.

 

LINE - Pax/Crew Ratio Std Occupancy - Pax/Crew Ratio Max Occupancy

 

AIDA - 3.86 - 4.45

 

AZAMARA - 1.82 - 1.96

 

CARNIVAL - 2.46 - 3.07

 

CELEBRITY - 2.19 - 2.54

 

COSTA - 2.60 - 3.28

 

CRYSTAL - 1.75 - 1.95

 

CUNARD - 2.05 - 1.95

 

DISNEY - 1.77 - 2.67

 

HOLLAND AMERICA - 2.29 - 2.79

 

MSC - 2.53 - 3.09

 

NORWEGIAN - 2.52 - 3.17

 

OCEANIA - 1.67 - 2.05

 

P&O (UK) - 2.41 - 2.76

 

P&O (AUS) - 2.18 - 2.62

 

PRINCESS - 2.4 - 2.47

 

REGENT - 1.55 - 1.68

 

ROYAL CARIBBEAN - 2.44 - 2.95

 

SEABOURN - 1.34 - 1.39

 

SEADREAM - 1.16 - 1.16

 

SILVERSEA - 1.36 - 1.52

 

Since I'm pretty sure that someone's going to want to argue with these numbers, I figured it would be best to show my work. There's a PDF at the link below which shows you everyone's ships, the numbers used in the calculations, and - as an added bonus for you, the loyal reader - there's also the space ratio for the ships as well.

 

http://www.instituteofcheer.com/img/Cruise-Ship-Data-2015-08-11.pdf

 

For what it's worth, HAL's ratio was 2.2 when we first started sailing with them 20+ years ago.

Love the bonus and appreciate the research, data, and chart! Thanks POA.

Edited August 11, 2015 by qsuzi

[POA1]

Love the bonus and appreciate the research, data, and chart! Thanks POA.

Thanks.

Good info POA and thx for showing your work ;).

You're welcome. Who knew that the main objection was going to be "It's misleading." "The numbers don't matter." Although iancal didn’t show his work.... ;)

 

Where's Hank Litner on this? Celebrity looks really good in the data. :D

Edited August 11, 2015 by POA1

[wander]

POA! and inacal,

 

POA1 Thank you for the work you put into the calculations. I for one appreciate the work and the information. (For part of my career I was a statistics (University level) and math (high school level) teacher.)

 

inacal, I disagree with your seemingly outright dismissal (as it seemed to me) of POA1's work and its value. OF COURSE is does NOT tell the whole story - but it IS meaningful. You might disagree with the work of the crew as you experienced it, but not all of us have such sour experiences on board.

 

I do agree that the onboard management and staff deployment are also CRITICAL factors. However, first the crew numbers have to be there. If there are not the crew numbers - NO ONE will get the positive experiences many of us have had.

 

I am so sorry you have apparently had such dismal experiences with HAL and I am very appreciative of the fact that my experiences have been so different. (Pool - no experience looking for service there.) One thing I have learned - with most people, including cruise staff, a little bit of "honey" goes a long ways in improving service. (And I am NOT talking about money.)

Edited August 11, 2015 by wander

[3rdGenCunarder]

Good info POA and thx for showing your work ;).

 

I want to add my thanks. Very interesting. AIDA has both a high crew-to-passenger ratio and a low space ratio. Gee, and I thought the ugly face painting was the only reason I wasn't sailing with them...

[dakrewser]

I'm not opposed to the so called change in dress code. What I'm opposed to is that Hal does not go one way or another. They need to stop being wishy washy and end formal dress altogether. Al this is doing is making the water muddy and making it more difficult to pack. If these surveys are telling them the "most" people prefer casual why not commit to that 100%?

 

Because - and its the major reason I love HAL - they're trying to accommodate ALL of their clientele.

[POA1]

I want to add my thanks. Very interesting. AIDA has both a high crew-to-passenger ratio and a low space ratio. Gee, and I thought the ugly face painting was the only reason I wasn't sailing with them...

Cunard is one of the lines we really want to try. We had the QV booked a few years ago, but our sailing got canceled for a dry dock. It was a very appealing round trip from Fort Lauderdale. Or at least it was appealing to us.

[3rdGenCunarder]

Cunard is one of the lines we really want to try. We had the QV booked a few years ago, but our sailing got canceled for a dry dock. It was a very appealing round trip from Fort Lauderdale. Or at least it was appealing to us.

 

Go for it! I haven't been on the "Vista sistas" yet, but I love QM2. I wish they would give us more opportunities to sail their ships without the flight to Europe.

 

Cunard is so much more than formal nights. They offer an amazing array of speakers on sea days. When they have authors onboard, they arrange signings. They have excellent libraries and bookshops. There's lots of entertainment, both in the theater (production shows and "guest" performers) and plenty more around the ship. On our last crossing there were 3 piano players who rotated through various bars, a jazz trio, a classical quartet, and a real live orchestra for dancing (in a ballroom with a large dance floor). They still have the traditional Captain's cocktail party on one of the--dare I say it--formal nights. Also parties for "World Club" members on other formal nights.

 

HAL's offerings don't come close to this. One of my problems with HAL's formal nights is that I feel "all dressed up but nowhere to go." Cunard gives us "gala" things to do.

 

To be fair, HAL is considerably less expensive than Cunard, and I don't expect to have all those extras. Different lines for different reasons. We sail Cunard for the complete experience. We sail HAL for itinerary, and other than port time, just vegging out.

[sppunk]

What everyone keeps leaving out is

 

There are many clueless people who haven't the foggiest notion of what Country Club or Smart Casual is. Therefore you end up eating dinner with a guy in a football jersey and a trucker cap. Yes it happens.

 

This keeps being thrown around but I'd love to see photo evidence of this on gala/elegant/formal nights on other lines.

 

It's way to throw things against a wall but they don't always jive with reality.

[Cruizer Bill]

I agree that this change is a result of HAL's recognition of changes in society. One of the changes is the trend toward more casual attire. I get it. But another is the trend against rules: rules don't apply to me; If i don't like a rule, ignore it. The first is a fact of life. The second is regrettable.

 

+1 here