Gratuities on HAL

[Ky Colonel]

I doubt cruise lines pay commission on tips ...

 

See Post # 37 above.

[Randyk47]

I doubt cruise lines pay commission on tips or why would lines now be encouraging guests to pre-pay their tips.

 

I think we're agreeing but pre-paying tips and including tips in the basic fare are two different things. Pre-paying tips, at least in my way of thinking, would involve a separate line item charge and like booking a tour or indulgence package would be a non-commissionable charge. Including the tips in the basic fare could or would be transparent to the customer though not necessarily so to the cruise line and agent. Certainly the cruise lines don't pay commission on taxes and port fees so accounting procedures already exist to isolate certain costs. As it is there already are two different confirmation receipts issued by the cruise, the passenger version and the TA version. Anyhow, my real reason to include tips or gratuities in the fare is get over the remove/leave in place debate.

[doublebzz]

I think we're agreeing but pre-paying tips and including tips in the basic fare are two different things. Pre-paying tips, at least in my way of thinking, would involve a separate line item charge and like booking a tour or indulgence package would be a non-commissionable charge. Including the tips in the basic fare could or would be transparent to the customer though not necessarily so to the cruise line and agent. Certainly the cruise lines don't pay commission on taxes and port fees so accounting procedures already exist to isolate certain costs. As it is there already are two different confirmation receipts issued by the cruise, the passenger version and the TA version. Anyhow, my real reason to include tips or gratuities in the fare is get over the remove/leave in place debate.

 

I'm not sure including tips in basic fare would be transparent; its not on lines that include tips like Seabourn. However, I do prefer that the tips be included in the fare as you suggest. For my part, I already consider tips as part of the fare when I budget for cruises.

[Randyk47]

I'm not sure including tips in basic fare would be transparent; its not on lines that include tips like Seabourn. However, I do prefer that the tips be included in the fare as you suggest. For my part, I already consider tips as part of the fare when I budget for cruises.

 

I don't know how Seabourn handles the accounting or what they show or don't show the passenger but Silversea is a "no tipping required or expected" line and goes on to say gratuities are included transparently in the fare. There's a bit of debate exactly how or if Silversea actually calculates the included gratuities or if they're saying their wages, according to their brochures, are already above the industry average which means they factor in what gratuities might be if they were a typical tipping expected line. Of course the truth is that some passengers still tip additional even on Silversea, some directly to individuals and some to the ship's crew welfare and entertainment fund. While not quite as lively that discussion and debate raises its head over in that section of CC from time to time.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Randyk47

[janmcn]

PLEASE...understand the rules Holland implements with the crew:

 

IF you remove the 'hotel service charge" at the front desk, AND you end up "tipping" various employees separately (indiscreetly as you say), they MUST report it and turn the money into the general pool of funds. THEY DO NOT KEEP IT! If they are found doing so, they are off the ship.

 

I'm sorry that HAL and others still call this separate charge a "Hotel Service Charge" and do not build it in, but that is the way it is. It is NOT A TIP.

 

These folks work SO hard for such long hours to make us happy. The laundry staff on this last cruise was fantastic...do you see them and tip them? No, they get it out of the "pool." How about the line cooks in the Lido? Same thing...

 

Please understand the cruise line rules...we all are unable to change them, no matter how we feel. If we sail with them, we abide by their rules.

[cruz chic]

PLEASE...understand the rules Holland implements with the crew:

 

IF you remove the 'hotel service charge" at the front desk, AND you end up "tipping" various employees separately (indiscreetly as you say), they MUST report it and turn the money into the general pool of funds. THEY DO NOT KEEP IT! If they are found doing so, they are off the ship.

 

I'm sorry that HAL and others still call this separate charge a "Hotel Service Charge" and do not build it in, but that is the way it is. It is NOT A TIP.

 

These folks work SO hard for such long hours to make us happy. The laundry staff on this last cruise was fantastic...do you see them and tip them? No, they get it out of the "pool." How about the line cooks in the Lido? Same thing...

 

Please understand the cruise line rules...we all are unable to change them, no matter how we feel. If we sail with them, we abide by their rules.

 

I'm not sure how you'd ever see the laundry people. I learned something from a poster on cc. I simply put some money in an envelope with my laundry and address it to the laundry staff.

[Ky Colonel]

It is wrong.

The Filipinos and Indonesians on the ships belong to seafarer unions.

 

Don't believe everything you read just because you 'found it on the web.'

 

 

Your information is wrong. The Indonesian and Filipino staff on board each belong to a union in their home countries. Additionally, I believe most of the European officers do as well but I'm not AS certain on that

 

Please provide the source of your information about HAL union membership, as I'm certain SKIFTTAKE (whatever or whoever that is) would appreciate having correct information.

[avian777]

Please provide the source of your information about HAL union membership, as I'm certain SKIFTTAKE (whatever or whoever that is) would appreciate having correct information.

 

Good post but don't stand on 1 leg waiting for a response ...

[cruiseing marly]

Thank you for being the only person to respond that has not been rude and does not realise the cost of cruising in Aus compared to the US. If I remove the gratuities (that as far as I am concerned the companies should be paying their staff appropriately anyway) I pay the good staff that have given me wonderful service directly and in a very quiet way. My last cruise on Diamond Princess, I wondered why the queues to get to reception where huge for the first 3 days. I was then told that they were passengers lining up to have the gratuites taken off. Given the service on that voyage I can't say I blame them. And just for the record all you Canandians complaining, I just looked up your dollar and it is .75 against the uUSD. Try the AUD under .70 and dropping fast.:D

As a Canadian i can understand your dollar dropping hurts your buying power its just life years ago our dollar was only sixty cents ! A Holiday is an extra not a necessity . If you think they should pay there staff book only cruises that include the tip. I always find the best way to get a great price is to book without perks . Don't you think that if there was not a service charge the fare would be more . Visiting Australia i noticed full service charge a lot more than in Canada as the employes need to be paid ! Not being rude the systems are just different !

[Fouremco]

Please provide the source of your information about HAL union membership, as I'm certain SKIFTTAKE (whatever or whoever that is) would appreciate having correct information.

A very quick Google reveals the following paragraphs in Mother Jones Magazine:

 

Unfortunately, the Veendam's mostly Indonesian and Filipino crew will see little of this money. Ruud Touwen, the Netherlands coordinator for the International Transport Workers' Federation (ITF), says "[Holland America] is one of the companies that makes the most profit and pays the worst of all cruise lines to its crew." According to the Indonesian seamen's union, Indonesian crew members aboard the Veendam average about $435 per month in wages (approximately $2.47 an hour for a 44-hour workweek), far below the ITF-recommended $1,200 per month. With overtime, which crew members almost always work, pay averages $728 per month.

 

To be fair, as union members, Holland America crews enjoy collective-bargaining rights. But low pay is not the only black spot on the company's record. In June Holland America pleaded guilty to two felony counts of discharging oily bilge from one of its cruise liners off the coast of Alaska, agreeing to pay a $2 million fine, the second largest ever levied against a cruise line for an environmental crime.

 

I can't attest to the accuracy and I can't provide source or sub-source information, but then again, I can't speak to the accuracy of SKIFTTAKE and its sources either.

 

As a former resident of Halifax, I will say that the International Seafarers Union had a facility at the docs and there was a steady flow of crew members in and out. Perhaps they welcomed guests.

[CowPrincess]

Fouremco that is very old info, October 1998 if this is the link (and it appears to be)

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1998/09/sailing-out

 

It is my understanding that a lot has changed since then in how the crew gets compensated, including the introduction of the HSC.

[Fouremco]

Fouremco that is very old info, October 1998 if this is the link (and it appears to be)

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1998/09/sailing-out

 

It is my understanding that a lot has changed since then in how the crew gets compensated, including the introduction of the HSC.

Different link, but same article. While dated, the only thing I was drawing attention to is the information that crew members were unionized.

[ICtheC]

I was curious about the service charges and asked a woman staff member if they got a portion of the tip/service charge. She laughed and said that they all had managers who got the best job for them and they had to sign a contract as to the job and the wages and that was all they got - the wages listed on the contract. Nothing extra.

A male staff member told me that he gets annoyed at the idea that they are all poor - he said that they can live on next to nothing as a kilo of rice only costs 69 cents and fruit trees grow everywhere so they go across the street and help themselves.

From the mouths of the staff........thought that was interesting.

[SetAnOpenCourse]

It is wrong.

The Filipinos and Indonesians on the ships belong to seafarer unions.

 

Don't believe everything you read just because you 'found it on the web.'

 

 

Not that I doubt this statement of yours, but I did find it 'on the web'. :o

 

Can you confirm that all those you refer to belong to seafarer unions, or might it depend on which type of worker they are (e.g., welder, food server, steward, etc.). Just curious - not trying to undermine your point.

 

-

Edited September 4, 2015 by SetAnOpenCourse

[SetAnOpenCourse]

I was curious about the service charges and asked a woman staff member if they got a portion of the tip/service charge. She laughed and said that they all had managers who got the best job for them and they had to sign a contract as to the job and the wages and that was all they got - the wages listed on the contract. Nothing extra.

 

This assertion would be critical to this thread, as it would contradict what HAL says about the HSC, that the amount collected goes to the crew.

 

A male staff member told me that he gets annoyed at the idea that they are all poor - he said that they can live on next to nothing as a kilo of rice only costs 69 cents and fruit trees grow everywhere so they go across the street and help themselves.

From the mouths of the staff........thought that was interesting.

 

Do you know what country he was from? I can only guess Indonesia, because what I've seen in the Philippines, necessities such as rice have become surprisingly expensive. Many items cost pretty much what you pay in the States even though household income would be well below our poverty level.

 

-

[pv girl]

I was curious about the service charges and asked a woman staff member if they got a portion of the tip/service charge. She laughed and said that they all had managers who got the best job for them and they had to sign a contract as to the job and the wages and that was all they got - the wages listed on the contract. Nothing extra.

 

Curious - was this woman part of the service crew - bar server, room steward, Lido server, etc. - or in one of the positions contracted by outside firms - gift shop attendant, spa worker, entertainment staff? The outside contract positions do not share in the tip pool as they are employed by the contractor, not by HAL. Otherwise, this contradicts what we have been told over and over by the CDs when they used to have the disembark talks on the last day.

[ICtheC]

The woman was staff and cleaned the public washrooms.

The man was a worker in the Lido

[ICtheC]

By the way, this was some years ago and the woman is no longer onboard so I assume that she has retired or left for another job.

[grayjay]

To get back to the matter in hand and to the original question:

Instead of removing tips to minimize the effect of a falling currency in comparison to the US$ ( we're also victims as the Euro has been falling rapidly this past year) I would prefer to pay them before I even board the ship. Then I'd have to pay in my home currency (Euros in this case) and I'd be slightly better off because the cruise lines quite often are a bit better in regard to their conversion rates.

We do it regularly on Celebrity and RCL cruises, but HAL so far doesn't allow it. The other possibility we have used is paying the gratuities through OBC we have - I see those as a free gift and can use them accordingly.

For the same reason we also sometimes give our additional tips to steward, waiters etc. in Euros if we cruise in European waters, US$ everywhere else.

[dogo88]

To get back to the matter in hand and to the original question:

....

 

The original question from the OP was can the HSC be removed. The answer is YES.

 

Dan

[SetAnOpenCourse]

The woman was staff and cleaned the public washrooms.

The man was a worker in the Lido

 

I'd have to hope there was a misunderstanding regarding the "Nothing extra" conversation; otherwise HAL is misleading us.

 

And I'd have to hope whoever said "they can live on next to nothing" was being facetious, or meant to avoid being felt sorry for, as it really give the wrong impression.

 

-

[Topsham]

Not that I doubt this statement of yours, but I did find it 'on the web'. :o

 

Can you confirm that all those you refer to belong to seafarer unions, or might it depend on which type of worker they are (e.g., welder, food server, steward, etc.). Just curious - not trying to undermine your point.

 

-

 

 

Yes, they do belng a union. It is the ITF.... International Transportation Federation. It is world wide and will help ANY seafarer in any port. And all of the wages agreed by HAL, not matter what you may think, are approved by the ITF.

 

 

The International Transport Workers' Federation (ITF) is an international trade union federation of transport workers' unions. Any independent trade union with members in the transport industry is eligible for membership of the ITF.

 

Around 700 unions representing over 4.5 million transport workers from some 150 countries are members of the ITF. It is one of several Global Federation Unions allied with the International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC).

 

The ITF's headquarters is located in London and it has offices in Nairobi, Ouagadougou, Tokyo, New Delhi, Rio de Janeiro, Georgetown, Moscow and Brussels.

 

Objectives

 

The aims of the ITF are set out in its Constitution (see below). They are:

to promote respect for trade union and human rights worldwide

to work for peace based on social justice and economic progress

to help its affiliated unions defend the interests of their members

to provide research and information services to its affiliates

to provide general assistance to transport workers in difficulty

 

Although the range of ITF activities is very wide, they can be best summed up under three key headings:

representation

information

practical solidarity

 

The ITF represents the interests of transport workers' unions in bodies which take decisions affecting jobs, employment conditions or safety in the transport industry, such as the International Labour Organisation (ILO), the International Maritime Organisation (IMO) and the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).

 

A major function of the ITF is informing and advising unions about developments in the transport industry in other countries or regions of the world. The ITF also maintains a specialist education department, dedicated to the development of strong and democratic transport unions.

 

The ITF organises international solidarity when transport unions in one country are in conflict with employers or government and need direct help from unions in other countries.

 

The kind of solidarity needed can range from protest messages, demonstrations and political pressure, to direct industrial action in the form of strikes, boycotts etc. The ITF's worldwide campaign in the maritime industry against the use by ship owners of Flags of Convenience (FOCs) to escape from national laws and national unions is a good example of solidarity.

[Topsham]

Curious - was this woman part of the service crew - bar server, room steward, Lido server, etc. - or in one of the positions contracted by outside firms - gift shop attendant, spa worker, entertainment staff? The outside contract positions do not share in the tip pool as they are employed by the contractor, not by HAL. Otherwise, this contradicts what we have been told over and over by the CDs when they used to have the disembark talks on the last day.

 

 

 

This is completely..... true.

[Topsham]

The woman was staff and cleaned the public washrooms.

The man was a worker in the Lido

 

 

 

In this case.... no. They would both be on the crew list.... not as 'staff'.

[sapper1]

The original question from the OP was can the HSC be removed. The answer is YES.

 

Dan

 

The answer is "yes, but----------".;)