SINGLE HSC/TIPPING THREAD (Previously "Why are gratuities not included in Fares?")

[Randyk47]

To be fair, no such agreement was agreed upon "amongst themselves". It is a system imposed on them by their employers and recruiters. Having said that, it is one of hundreds of aspects of the industry that are insidious and unflattering​. There's no reason to call this one out among the many. We either take the industry as it is, complete with all its various aspects of fairness and unfairness, or avoid it entirely.

 

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I think we're confusing the HSC and beverage surcharge with the out of hand cash tips staff might receive. Certainly the HSC and beverage surcharge are pooled and shared according to whatever contract agreements. Cash tips above and beyond the HSC and beverage surcharge may be retained by the individual they are given to and to the best of my knowledge not subject to pooling. It does appear some subgroups, for example bar staff, may have their own arrangement to pool the additional cash tips but I have no sense that's required.

[bUU]

I think we're confusing the HSC and beverage surcharge with the out of hand cash tips staff might receive.

Indeed. It's that whole, "included in fares" notation on the thread topic.

 

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[pris993]

I am an intelligent person, but my mind cannot comprehend why cruise lines do not incorporate the "service charge" into their fares. I understand that the fare prices look better without them, but it is actually part of the cruise price.

 

I get frustrated when people remove the charges when they get onto the ship.

 

I was on a cruise last summer, and while sitting with individuals in the smoking area, spoke to numerous people that had already removed their charges. One couple was from Australia, who said they do not tip in their country. Tried to explain that the charge was for the crew, and I was told "then it should be included in the fare". My reply? "Maybe Australian quotes should have them built in. See how cheap your fares are then."

 

Later, we spoke to someone else that removed their gratuities. This guy was American, and what he said kinda made sense, however not enough to screw the crew. As he said, when I check into a Motel 6, I do not tip the maid, unless I trash the room, and additional work is required of them. Their job is to clean my room, and change my linens. Same as a cabin steward. If you do not request ice, or anything out of the norm, they have done their job, so why pay extra. He eats at lido, so no one waits on him.

 

I understand the additional daily charge, but maybe it should be part of the base fare. If a passenger gets bad service, then guest services should be able to "solve" any problems, or adjust $$$ if a problem is not solved. Crew should not suffer because of one's culture or thoughts on tipping.

 

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

I do not care what aothers do...I would guess the crew does very well, for everyone who stops the charge their many others who tip extra...I know we usually tip double the auto tip, so we leave the auto on and then tip in cash a similar amount at the end of the cruise... we are demanding customers so feel the crew well deserves the auto plus what we tip in the end,.

[bUU]

I do not care what aothers do...

To some extent, I do. The extent to which people abide by their hosts' expectations (and to be clear, on a cruise, the host is the cruise line), affects the efficiency by which the host serves all its guests. I am not talking about trivial matters, like who's wearing a tie or not, but rather major considerations, like those that affect staff compensation. Money matters, and matters a lot. The more the cruise line has to compensate for those who refuse to pay for staff gratuities, the more the rest of the passengers are effectively subsidizing the cruises of those who refuse.

[Telejoke]

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

You're welcome! :-)

 

I've wondered why it isn't included in the charge as well. My guess is that they COULD include it in the fare and then distribute the gratuity to staff accordingly, BUT since people change cabin classes or even cancel cruises, the math might be too much for their little computers to handle.

 

I don't have a problem with people from other cultures removing the charges if tipping is not part of their custom. However, they should be advised by their TAs or the cruise lines why the service charges are deducted (i.e. it is a factor in the earnings of the staff).

 

I wonder how it could be an incentive for good service if staff are getting a gratuity whether they provide good service or treat you like bilge. Perhaps a more experienced cruiser could weigh in on that part.

[bUU]

The most generous passengers provide additional gratuities for superior service. The base amount is just that - a base. If the crew members didn't deserve at least that much then complaints should have been lodged and disciplinary action should have been applied.

 

Incidentally, I encourage you to read earlier messages in this thread. They explain why this charge can not be included in the fare. The short answer is taxes not computers.

 

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[RocketMan275]

IMHO, Many of those who advocate inclusion of the HSC in the cruise line fare are really against the paying the HSC whether it is in the fare or not. They are really advocating for a reduction in the cost of the cruise by the amount of the HSC with the cruise line paying the crew from the fare alone. For example, if the current fare is $1000 and the HSC is $100, they are not advocating that the cruise fare should be $1100 and no HSC, they are advocating that the total cost of the cruise should be $1000.

 

This explains why these threads continue to be contentious. Both sides are talking past each other. One side argues the cruise line will have to raise prices if the HSC is eliminated. The other side argues that the cruise line can simply take it out of profit. That means the sides aren't even arguing about the same thing. One sided is simply arguing that the cruise line makes too much money. The other side disagrees. The HSC is simply a red herring.

[bUU]

Interesting. I totally missed that nuance. "Take it out of profit." That indicates a serious lack of understanding about the nature of the business of mass market offerings of a discretionary nature (which includes cruising, of course). With all discretionary purchases, price is based on value, specifically in the aggregate view of the perceived value of the customers across the entire market segment. It will have nothing really to do with cost except to the extent that the price has to be higher than the cost or you're losing money.

 

People making discretionary purchases (of any sort) may express consternation about how much they're paying and how they're paying it but the reality is that there's a science behind determining how much what is being offered is worth to the people who are paying it - even if they're not willing to admit that it's worth that much to them. And that's of course how much the price is.

 

Short of establishing a collective union consumers who represent a very large portion of the customer base and who all pledge to comply with the strategy and tactics outlined by the collective, how much passengers pay is going to be the same - again, a reflection of value offered. No amount of hemming or hawing is going to change that market dynamic. And outliers, consumers who don't fit the mold of the market segments of which they are apart, aren't going to have any impact whatsoever. Their experience is going to be mostly dictated by the behaviors of the vast majority of the segment.

 

So in a nutshell, business is about determining how much money there is to be made and then crafting an offering to earn that money. Well we each feel that we have complete control over each individual purchase we make within the larger purchase, those are practically trivial perturbations within this dynamic within which the amount of money to be made average out to pretty much what the research indicates.

 

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[RocketMan275]

Interesting. I totally missed that nuance. "Take it out of profit." That indicates a serious lack of understanding about the nature of the business of mass market offerings of a discretionary nature (which includes cruising, of course).

 

These threads are replete with comments that the cruise lines should pay the crew from their profits (usually with some comment about 'living wage'). Or, with comments that the cruise lines are skimming from the HSC, etc.

 

This theory is the only one that makes sense. If the cruise lines pay the crew from the fare without raising the fare, then the crew pay would have to come from profit. If the cruise line raises the fare sufficiently to ensure no loss of net pay to the crew due to the many factors cited in this thread, then passengers would have to pay more than the current fare plus the current HSC.

 

Why should if matter if the crew is paid by an increased fare and HSC incorporated into that fare or paid by the current fare and the HSC if both options produce the same crew pay? It only matters if your objective is to pay the crew from cruise line profits.

[cbr663]

IMHO, Many of those who advocate inclusion of the HSC in the cruise line fare are really against the paying the HSC whether it is in the fare or not. They are really advocating for a reduction in the cost of the cruise by the amount of the HSC with the cruise line paying the crew from the fare alone. For example, if the current fare is $1000 and the HSC is $100, they are not advocating that the cruise fare should be $1100 and no HSC, they are advocating that the total cost of the cruise should be $1000...

 

On this point I respectfully disagree. These forums are visited by people world wide, all who live under different consumer protection laws. In Ontario, Canada, for instance, all travel agencies are mandated by the Travel Industry Council of Ontario (TICO). Travel agencies must be a member of TICO to do business in ON.

 

In ON, the Travel Industry Act, 2002 and the Ontario Regulations 26/05 set out very strict advertising guidelines for the travel industry. One of which is:

 

"The total amount that the consumer will be required to pay including all taxes, fees and service charges OR the price of the travel services plus a total of the taxes, fees and service charges or an itemized list of the cost of all taxes, fees and service charges for each price advertised." (emphasis added by me).

 

When you live in an area in which the regulations provide that the amount advertised is the amount that you pay, it can be very confusing and some feel deceptive to discover the HSC is not included in the advertised price.

 

This has nothing to do with not wanting to pay the HSC. It has to do with wanting the cruise line to be more open and transparent about its pricing.

[RocketMan275]

On this point I respectfully disagree. These forums are visited by people world wide, all who live under different consumer protection laws. In Ontario, Canada, for instance, all travel agencies are mandated by the Travel Industry Council of Ontario (TICO). Travel agencies must be a member of TICO to do business in ON.

 

In ON, the Travel Industry Act, 2002 and the Ontario Regulations 26/05 set out very strict advertising guidelines for the travel industry. One of which is:

 

"The total amount that the consumer will be required to pay including all taxes, fees and service charges OR the price of the travel services plus a total of the taxes, fees and service charges or an itemized list of the cost of all taxes, fees and service charges for each price advertised." (emphasis added by me).

 

When you live in an area in which the regulations provide that the amount advertised is the amount that you pay, it can be very confusing and some feel deceptive to discover the HSC is not included in the advertised price.

 

This has nothing to do with not wanting to pay the HSC. It has to do with wanting the cruise line to be more open and transparent about its pricing.

 

Do the travel agencies in Ontario follow the law?

[cbr663]

Do the travel agencies in Ontario follow the law?

 

Yes. TICO has a lot of teeth and has been very successful in its enforcement and compliance activities. TICO has successfully charged and convicted many people and organizations of not following the laws.

 

All in pricing in advertising also applies to other industries in ON such as the automotive sales industry.

[RocketMan275]

Yes. TICO has a lot of teeth and has been very successful in its enforcement and compliance activities. TICO has successfully charged and convicted many people and organizations of not following the laws.

 

All in pricing in advertising also applies to other industries in ON such as the automotive sales industry.

 

If the TA in Ontario follow the law, what is your complaint?

[jtl513]

I don't have a problem with people from other cultures removing the charges if tipping is not part of their custom.

 

 

I wonder how it could be an incentive for good service if staff are getting a gratuity whether they provide good service or treat you like bilge. Perhaps a more experienced cruiser could weigh in on that part.

Once again: the Hotel Service CHARGE is not a tip/gratuity. It is a charge for service rendered, and the only legitimate reason to not pay it is if you did not receive adequate service.

 

Here is a very experienced cruiser - a long time officer on several cruise lines:

I know I'll hate myself for getting into another tip thread, but just one more post.

 

Please don't consider the HSC (or DSC) as a "gratuity" or a "tip", despite what the cruise lines' PR notices say. The cruise lines use the HSC as the major source of income for those included in the HSC pool (which varies by line, but wait and cabin staff and support for them), and as a way of instilling "team work" approach to guest services, though in fact it is more of peer pressure than team work, as one crew's failings cause the others to suffer financially. It is also a way to take the onus of reducing the crew's salary away from the cruise line and shifting it to the passenger. "We didn't reduce your pay, the passengers who reduced or removed the HSC did".

 

That's what the HSC is, not a tip, not a gratuity, but a carrot and stick device by the cruise lines to get their employees to provide better service through financial blackmail. So, take the tipping culture out of the discussion, and realize the charge for what it is.

[Randyk47]

Once again: the Hotel Service CHARGE is not a tip/gratuity. It is a charge for service rendered, and the only legitimate reason to not pay it is if you did not receive adequate service.

 

Here is a very experienced cruiser - a long time officer on several cruise lines:

 

You can call it "Maude Frickette's Sunshine Fund" for all I care but it is what it is and it's an automatically added gratuity. Holland America certainly says or implies the HSC is in lieu of gratuities and tips and Celebrity is maybe more straight forward and call their program "automatic gratuities".

[bUU]

On this point I respectfully disagree. These forums are visited by people world wide, all who live under different consumer protection laws.

Let's be clear, though. http://www.hollandamerica.com is for USA folks only. If a Canadian feels that they've been "advertised to" from that website, that is in error.

This is a United States website and all bookings purchased through this website will be subject to these terms and conditions. We do not represent that this site and the terms and policies contained herein are appropriate or compliant with laws outside the United States.

Persons who choose to make bookings on this site from locations outside the United States do so on their own initiative, and understand that local laws will not apply to their bookings. If you are booking from outside of the United States and would like the laws of your home country to apply to your booking, please contact a travel agent in your country.

[Emphasis added.]

[cbr663]

Let's be clear, though. http://www.hollandamerica.com is for USA folks only. If a Canadian feels that they've been "advertised to" from that website, that is in error.

[Emphasis added.]

 

It is not an error. When Canadians visit and book a cruise through the website, the costs are automatically displayed in Canadian dollars. Canadians use the same holland america site to book as US residents do.

[Lizzie68]

Let's be clear, though. http://www.hollandamerica.com is for USA folks only. If a Canadian feels that they've been "advertised to" from that website, that is in error.

[Emphasis added.]

 

What???

[bUU]

Please don't ignore this part:

This is a United States website and all bookings purchased through this website will be subject to these terms and conditions. We do not represent that this site and the terms and policies contained herein are appropriate or compliant with laws outside the United States. Persons who choose to make bookings on this site from locations outside the United States do so on their own initiative, and understand that local laws will not apply to their bookings. If you are booking from outside of the United States and would like the laws of your home country to apply to your booking, please contact a travel agent in your country.

Charging you in Canadian dollars doesn't mean that that provision does not apply.

[JVilleGal]

http://www.hollandamerica.com/Canada

 

The website directs you based on your IP address being broadcast by your computer location. That's why it knows to price in CAD rather than US $

 

 

This is my understanding anyway ;)

 

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[bUU]

Good find! Maybe someone in Canada can go to this URL and relay if Paragraph #8 reads differently than what I quoted.

http://www.hollandamerica.com/legalAndPrivacy/Main.action?tabName=Website%20Terms%20%26%20Conditions&WT.ac=footer_TCs&legacy=true

[JVilleGal]

Good find! Maybe someone in Canada can go to this URL and relay if Paragraph #8 reads differently than what I quoted.

http://www.hollandamerica.com/legalAndPrivacy/Main.action?tabName=Website%20Terms%20%26%20Conditions&WT.ac=footer_TCs&legacy=true

 

 

Weird but I had this all explained to me after booking a cruise while I was in a hotel in Canada and kept getting sent to the Canadian website. And from then on when ever I logged in I was automatically redirected. IT finally fixed it for me but it haunted me up until final pmt before it was resolved. It kept wanting a Canadian style postal address and would not accept my US address. :(

 

Your experience may be different of course!

 

 

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[sfaaa]

Why does this matter since this is a cruise line's decision to make. So unless you are a HA shareholder, leave it to the cruise line and its employees to deal with it. You are just a passenger on the ship.

[dcassetta]

I want to make sure I do not neglect anyone on our cruise. If we eat in the main dining, whether fixed or open, is the gratuity included in our standard service charge? Can we add addtional if the service warrants it? In the extra charge restaurants, is the server's gratuity part of that fee? Do we tip room service? TIA

[POA1]

Your basic tips are covered by the daily service charge. If you want to tip extra, you may. As long as you are not removing the daily hotel service charge, you're covered.

 

If you feel that someone has given you excellent service, feel free to tip them extra. Cash is best, but you can increase your HSC if you want.