UK cruises, new gratuities

[RocketMan275]

Your questions are valid, and deserve answers

 

The cruise lines dont make gratuities mandatory or part of the fare because of they did, they would be required to account for the distribution of the funds.

 

The cruise lines that include gratuities as booking bonuses are an example of the lack of accountability for handling of these funds.

 

Regarding the pay for crew members, here are some numbers that may add some base to this discussion.

 

On a recent cruise on another line, we were charged 13.50 per day per person, and our two stewards had 31 rooms to service. I was told the company distributes 40 percent of the grats to housekeeping.

 

Take these numbers and you will see that the stewards are very well paid when compared to the same work in other venues.

 

Do the stewards actually make over 5000 dollars per months in tips, or is the cruise line keeping some of it?

So what if they do make $5000 per month?

Why would that imply the cruise line might be keeping a portion of the gratuities?

[Baystate]

I really don't understand the problem. A company is in business to make as much of a profit as they can, and no one is forced to work for that company and certainly no one is forced to purchase a cruise from a cruiseline. If you don't like the policy of a "forced" service charge don't purchase a cruise from that company.

 

Do you really think that the company would not pass the the increase in crew pay on to you? Just like a mandatory minimum wage, the company either goes to automation and or less employees with more work to do. It is not greed. Again no one is forced to participate in any of it. Spend your dollars elsewhere if you don't like their policies.

[sloopsailor]

You are the one who needs to take some lessons in morality........you are subsidizing no one so quit thinking you are SO IMPORTANT joker.......:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

You are absolutely correct - I will not subsidize your bad behavior, no matter how often you tell me to. You lectured us to "give it a rest and double your tips next time to make up for the ones who choose not too...........:rolleyes:". Isn't that a demand to in fact subsidize other people? So, it certainly appears that you are the one lecturing us on how to act, as you seem to be quite fond of telling everyone what to do (as your post is proof of).

 

Try taking your own advice for a change. :mad:

[pablo222]

You are absolutely correct - I will not subsidize your bad behavior, no matter how often you tell me to.

 

Unfortunately, you have no choice with the system princess has created.

 

Imagine a very simple situation, a waiter serving a table with 2 couples.

1 couple pays the hotel charge, and 1 couple cancels.

 

The waiter isn't there to see the world, or anything else fun, they are there to earn money.

Their 'salary' comes exclusively (or almost exclusively -- depending on country) from the hotel charge.

 

So, the couple who paid the hotel charge is paying for the waiter service.

The non-paying couple is getting a free ride.

 

I'm happy to pay my part. I'm disgusted to pay for strangers.

 

Princess has created this system by making it so easy to cancel tips.

 

I find this offensive. I'm on a break from cruising, and this is one of the reasons.

 

In the old days, I'm sure there were people who didn't tip.

But, now they're here bragging about it, so it's much more offensive.

[PTMary]

I scoff at the self-important ones who demand "transparency" by raising the topic of who receives the gratuities. What a pile of horse manure! Do you also demand transparency about where your cruise fare goes? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of that fare goes to actually operating the ship you paid to be on? Why aren't you demanding to know if the executives are siphoning off much of the fare to give themselves huge bonuses? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of your fare goes to support political or social causes you don't believe in? Why aren't you demanding to know how much the fare goes, or does not go, towards the quality of the food served, the maintenance and safety of the ship, or improving your cruise experience? Why are you only concerned about gratuities and how much goes to the crew?

 

Oh, wait, I think I know. You raise this "transparency" issue about gratuities just to justify any excuse to lower or remove them. Clearly THAT is the only reason, and there is no other reason at all. :rolleyes:

[harz99]

I scoff at the self-important ones who demand "transparency" by raising the topic of who receives the gratuities. What a pile of horse manure! Do you also demand transparency about where your cruise fare goes? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of that fare goes to actually operating the ship you paid to be on? Why aren't you demanding to know if the executives are siphoning off much of the fare to give themselves huge bonuses? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of your fare goes to support political or social causes you don't believe in? Why aren't you demanding to know how much the fare goes, or does not go, towards the quality of the food served, the maintenance and safety of the ship, or improving your cruise experience? Why are you only concerned about gratuities and how much goes to the crew?

 

Oh, wait, I think I know. You raise this "transparency" issue about gratuities just to justify any excuse to lower or remove them. Clearly THAT is the only reason, and there is no other reason at all. :rolleyes:

As far as I know the only person who mentioned transparency was me, and if you are aiming at me you are totally barking up the wrong tree as I neither raised the issue of who does or doesn't receive the gratuities, nor have I ever in my life not tipped under the old envelope system or removed auto gratuities under the current systems!

 

I follow the "when in Rome" principle.

 

Although I would really agree with that also being applied in areas of the world where tipping is not the norm, and especially some far Eastern countries where to do so is actually an insult, but that is a whole new thread...

 

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[RocketMan275]

I scoff at the self-important ones who demand "transparency" by raising the topic of who receives the gratuities. What a pile of horse manure! Do you also demand transparency about where your cruise fare goes? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of that fare goes to actually operating the ship you paid to be on? Why aren't you demanding to know if the executives are siphoning off much of the fare to give themselves huge bonuses? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of your fare goes to support political or social causes you don't believe in? Why aren't you demanding to know how much the fare goes, or does not go, towards the quality of the food served, the maintenance and safety of the ship, or improving your cruise experience? Why are you only concerned about gratuities and how much goes to the crew?

 

Oh, wait, I think I know. You raise this "transparency" issue about gratuities just to justify any excuse to lower or remove them. Clearly THAT is the only reason, and there is no other reason at all. :rolleyes:

 

Well said. "Transparency" is just a way to justify saving money through stiffing the crew. After all, how would one know that a fare increase would actually go to increased wages? It would seem that increasing the fare while doing away with the service charge would actually reduce "transparency".

[anniegb]

I scoff at the self-important ones who demand "transparency" by raising the topic of who receives the gratuities. What a pile of horse manure! Do you also demand transparency about where your cruise fare goes? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of that fare goes to actually operating the ship you paid to be on? Why aren't you demanding to know if the executives are siphoning off much of the fare to give themselves huge bonuses? Why aren't you demanding to know how much of your fare goes to support political or social causes you don't believe in? Why aren't you demanding to know how much the fare goes, or does not go, towards the quality of the food served, the maintenance and safety of the ship, or improving your cruise experience? Why are you only concerned about gratuities and how much goes to the crew?

 

Oh, wait, I think I know. You raise this "transparency" issue about gratuities just to justify any excuse to lower or remove them. Clearly THAT is the only reason, and there is no other reason at all. :rolleyes:

 

I raised the issue of transparency.

 

Where is your evidence that I lower or remove the gratuities??

 

You should never ASS-U-ME!

 

The system is flawed - that is all I am illustrating. Princess and the other mainstream cruise lines can easily fix it but elect NOT to do so.

 

Annie

[anniegb]

As far as I know the only person who mentioned transparency was me, and if you are aiming at me you are totally barking up the wrong tree as I neither raised the issue of who does or doesn't receive the gratuities, nor have I ever in my life not tipped under the old envelope system or removed auto gratuities under the current systems!

 

I follow the "when in Rome" principle.

 

Although I would really agree with that also being applied in areas of the world where tipping is not the norm, and especially some far Eastern countries where to do so is actually an insult, but that is a whole new thread...

 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Forums mobile app

 

I also used the word transparency. I always auto-tip or pre-pay but my marine accounting brain is curious about this issue.

 

There are countries in the world where I have offered a tip and had it declined but as you say a different issue.

 

Annie

[anniegb]

Well said. "Transparency" is just a way to justify saving money through stiffing the crew. After all, how would one know that a fare increase would actually go to increased wages? It would seem that increasing the fare while doing away with the service charge would actually reduce "transparency".

 

Eh??

 

How can you reduce the level of transparency when none currently exists???

 

Annie

[PTMary]

As far as I know the only person who mentioned transparency was me, and if you are aiming at me you are totally barking up the wrong tree as I neither raised the issue of who does or doesn't receive the gratuities, nor have I ever in my life not tipped under the old envelope system or removed auto gratuities under the current systems!

 

I follow the "when in Rome" principle.

 

Although I would really agree with that also being applied in areas of the world where tipping is not the norm, and especially some far Eastern countries where to do so is actually an insult, but that is a whole new thread...

 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Forums mobile app

 

Kudos for doing the right thing.

 

I wasn't directing my comment at you, but in general. There have been several other posters calling for transparency in this tread (most also rail against tipping), and the same demand comes up in most of these tipping threads. The majority of the posters using transparency as an argument also support not paying the gratuities, so in most cases the two go hand in hand.

 

Like you I will take the time to learn what the cultural norms are where I travel and do my best to respect them. If they have a tipping culture, I will tip. If not, I won't. And I consider a cruise ship community as having a culture of it's own, just like a country would. I am not so "self-important" that I insist on forcing my culture on theirs, as some on this thread clearly do. :halo:

[pablo222]

US companies do employ mariners without incurring payroll taxes.

 

If the appropriate DTAs are in place, the crew could be exempt from US taxation.

 

Just asking because I am trying to understand, what additional US taxation might be incurred by the vendor and consumer if the cruise fare is increased by the amount of gratuities.

 

Consider a ship like Emerald Princess...

 

When it is based in the US, gratuities are optional.

 

When it is based in Australia, gratuities are included in the cruise fare.

 

Someone, somewhere has figured out how to handle this accounting.

[brian1]

Consider a ship like Emerald Princess...

 

When it is based in the US, gratuities are optional.

 

When it is based in Australia, gratuities are included in the cruise fare.

 

Someone, somewhere has figured out how to handle this accounting.

Only for Aussies booking in Aus,everyone else pays grats.

[anniegb]

Consider a ship like Emerald Princess...

 

When it is based in the US, gratuities are optional.

 

When it is based in Australia, gratuities are included in the cruise fare.

 

Someone, somewhere has figured out how to handle this accounting.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Why do folk state that gratuities cannot be included in the ticket price then because of tax implications?

 

Annie

[AZbeachboy]

Thanks for the info.

 

Why do folk state that gratuities cannot be included in the ticket price then because of tax implications?

 

Annie

 

It kind of like Verizon's hidden charges. They want to hide charges and make it look like a cheap price when they advertise, the they add service fees and port taxes. Sometimes this can add over 30% to cost of the cruise. Cruise lines like a lot of large corporations want to trick us.

 

Look at the fast food restaurants. Compare the picture of the food to what you actually get. That is why I say we should not let the cruise lines off the hook with this issue. There are two choices for people who care about the cruise line issue. 1. Don't cruise. 2. Remove tips which is also policy. When people don't get paid what they think its worth, they will stop signing contracts and the cruise lines will be forced to raise the wage.

 

I traveled on HAL when they did not allow tips. We still tipped some for great service, but there was a lot less anxiety when tipping is based on service as apposed to paying wages.

[RocketMan275]

Thanks for the info.

 

Why do folk state that gratuities cannot be included in the ticket price then because of tax implications?

 

Annie

 

I know of no one who has said that gratuities cannot be included in the price. What they have said is that the taxes would result in an increase significantly more than the $13.5 PP PD. Some also pointed out that the only benefitiary would be the tax collector. IOW, why should the majority pay increased taxes just because of the moral outrage over gratuities by a few?

 

Would it make you happy if the price of a seven day Princess cruise went up by, say, $100 for passengers booking from the UK but not for the other passengers on the same cruise?

 

Would you still book on Princess or would you switch to another cruise line that did not increase their prices?

[BunnieBear]

NCL have gone all inclusive for UK bookings too. Just after we booked typically. But prices have also risen so it's not free as was implied.

 

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[RocketMan275]

It kind of like Verizon's hidden charges. They want to hide charges and make it look like a cheap price when they advertise, the they add service fees and port taxes. Sometimes this can add over 30% to cost of the cruise. Cruise lines like a lot of large corporations want to trick us.

 

Look at the fast food restaurants. Compare the picture of the food to what you actually get. That is why I say we should not let the cruise lines off the hook with this issue. There are two choices for people who care about the cruise line issue. 1. Don't cruise. 2. Remove tips which is also policy. When people don't get paid what they think its worth, they will stop signing contracts and the cruise lines will be forced to raise the wage.

 

I traveled on HAL when they did not allow tips. We still tipped some for great service, but there was a lot less anxiety when tipping is based on service as apposed to paying wages.

 

So you advocate punishing the crew by removing the gratuities to lower your anxiety level? Just leave the service charge in place and there is no anxiety.

[RocketMan275]

NCL have gone all inclusive for UK bookings too. Just after we booked typically. But prices have also risen so it's not free as was implied.

 

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There are some who are morally outraged by gratuities and there are some who are only made slightly uncomfortable by a tipping culture. Then, there are those who only want the gratuities included in the fare because they think that means they won't have to pay the service charge, ie, there will be no increase in the fare.

 

Would it be possible to provide some comparison of how much NCL increased their fares?

[anniegb]

I know of no one who has said that gratuities cannot be included in the price. What they have said is that the taxes would result in an increase significantly more than the $13.5 PP PD. Some also pointed out that the only benefitiary would be the tax collector. IOW, why should the majority pay increased taxes just because of the moral outrage over gratuities by a few?

 

Would it make you happy if the price of a seven day Princess cruise went up by, say, $100 for passengers booking from the UK but not for the other passengers on the same cruise?

 

Would you still book on Princess or would you switch to another cruise line that did not increase their prices?

 

Are you implying the consumer would pay additional taxes?

 

Why would the tax collector benefit? In many countries if a citizen is non-domiciled no additional taxes would be payable? With the obvious caveat that rules vary across tax jurisdictions.

 

I would be content if Princess increased the fares for all cruisers to include gratuities.

 

No-one can avoid them then irrespective of nationality and that includes Americans who have been known to remove gratuities.

 

Annie

Edited August 14, 2017 by anniegb

[anniegb]

There are some who are morally outraged by gratuities and there are some who are only made slightly uncomfortable by a tipping culture. Then, there are those who only want the gratuities included in the fare because they think that means they won't have to pay the service charge, ie, there will be no increase in the fare.

 

Would it be possible to provide some comparison of how much NCL increased their fares?

 

On my booked NCL cruise, under the new pricing model the price increase was approx 100% and that is NOT a typo.

 

Annie

[anniegb]

It kind of like Verizon's hidden charges. They want to hide charges and make it look like a cheap price when they advertise, the they add service fees and port taxes. Sometimes this can add over 30% to cost of the cruise. Cruise lines like a lot of large corporations want to trick us.

 

Look at the fast food restaurants. Compare the picture of the food to what you actually get. That is why I say we should not let the cruise lines off the hook with this issue. There are two choices for people who care about the cruise line issue. 1. Don't cruise. 2. Remove tips which is also policy. When people don't get paid what they think its worth, they will stop signing contracts and the cruise lines will be forced to raise the wage.

 

I traveled on HAL when they did not allow tips. We still tipped some for great service, but there was a lot less anxiety when tipping is based on service as apposed to paying wages.

 

I have a background in the maritime industry. You are correct, the crews switch vessels when the employer is not paying the market rate.

 

Annie

[BunnieBear]

There are some who are morally outraged by gratuities and there are some who are only made slightly uncomfortable by a tipping culture. Then, there are those who only want the gratuities included in the fare because they think that means they won't have to pay the service charge, ie, there will be no increase in the fare.

 

Would it be possible to provide some comparison of how much NCL increased their fares?

I have no problem paying more to cover staff costs. I think it's the fact that the price isn't the price that we dislike in the UK, meaning cruises are not directly comparible with land based holidays and it's daunting to book as a first time cruiser without wondering what your eventual holiday price will be. What looks affordable at face value could leave some people in debt when everything else is added in.

 

I don't remember the exact price difference but I seem to think it was at least £200 more than the price we'd booked at and we'd have forfeited our deposit if we'd canceled and rebooked.

 

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[pablo222]

Only for Aussies booking in Aus,everyone else pays grats.

 

An even more complicated system -- and someone somewhere has figured out the accounting needed to make it work.

 

I'm sure someone could finagle a way to set up a panamaian (or wherever) corporation, and have Princess

Cruises collect hotel charges on behalf of that corporation, who would then distribute them, without forcing

Micky Arison to have to eat cat food.

They already have a panamanian corporation for the casinos.

[anniegb]

I have no problem paying more to cover staff costs. I think it's the fact that the price isn't the price that we dislike in the UK, meaning cruises are not directly comparible with land based holidays and it's daunting to book as a first time cruiser without wondering what your eventual holiday price will be. What looks affordable at face value could leave some people in debt when everything else is added in.

 

I don't remember the exact price difference but I seem to think it was at least £200 more than the price we'd booked at and we'd have forfeited our deposit if we'd canceled and rebooked.

 

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Is it possible to express that as a percentage of the original quoted price?

 

Thanks

 

Annie