UK cruises, new gratuities

[RDC1]

It is a strange system not knowing the cost until it's rung up at the till.

 

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You know what it is, you mentally add in the sales tax.

[AZbeachboy]

There is primary reason why major cruise lines (CCL, RCL, NCL) tend to operate using American norms. Almost 60% of the cruise passengers are from America. Look at the demographics of those three holding companies and the percentage gets even larger.

 

I think this is an interesting take. They do try to push customary American Norms, yet they flag their ships in other countries to avoid US laws. Cruise lines complain about the Jones act and would love to be able to cruise without stops in foreign ports. So they are trying to have congress void the act. There is a way they can stop in as many ports as they wish under the Jones Act, abide by US labor laws. Pay the staff and taxes that go along with it. Norwegian did that with their Hawaiian Trips for years.

[swedish weave]

Let me address your comments:

The cruise lines dont make gratuities mandatory or part of the fare because of they did, they would be required to account for the distribution of the funds.

 

 

Not correct. Under US accounting law all of the money received must be accounted for. The requirements are actually tighter dealing with tips. The regulation requires that in order to get the accounting treatment that they do 1. The tips must be optional (i.e. they allow the customer to remove them) 2. ALL FUNDS RECEIVED MUST BE DISTRIBUTED TO CREW.

 

If the cruise line removed the ability to removed and ran all of the gratuities through as revenue and the distribution as expense then it would be rather easy for them to divert some of the money.

 

Regarding the pay for crew members, here are some numbers that may add some base to this discussion.

 

On a recent cruise on another line, we were charged 13.50 per day per person, and our two stewards had 31 rooms to service. I was told the company distributes 40 percent of the grats to housekeeping.

 

Take these numbers and you will see that the stewards are very well paid when compared to the same work in other venues.

 

Do the stewards actually make over 5000 dollars per months in tips, or is the cruise line keeping some of it?

 

 

Your numbers are not valid, because while the cruise line might distribute 40% (I say might because I have not seen any specific numbers of how the money is distributed out of the pool) of that money to housekeeping, there are many people in housekeeping in addition to the Steward. Many are behind the scenes. Some are supervisory personnel in the same department.

 

 

My understanding is that Stewards actually due quite well. Not to the $5000 dollar amount but well above minimum wage.

 

 

The cruise lines are very clear that the money goes into a pool across the fleet and then redistributed. To get the financial reporting treatment that they are getting it all must go to crew.

 

 

The cruise lines that include gratuities as booking bonuses are an example of the lack of accountability for handling of these funds.

 

 

Not sure where you came up with this idea, but it is also incorrect. To do it as a booking bonus, all the cruise line has to do is to pay the money into the pool themselves. Then book the expense (usually as a sales and marketing line item). The fact that a cruise line is running free gratuity sales really has no impact other then who pays into the pool.

 

Interesting rhetoric, but you fail to mention who monitors these funds.

[Colo Cruiser]

Interesting rhetoric, but you fail to mention who monitors these funds.

 

 

The UK.

[PrincessLuver]

You are absolutely correct - I will not subsidize your bad behavior, no matter how often you tell me to. You lectured us to "give it a rest and double your tips next time to make up for the ones who choose not too...........:rolleyes:". Isn't that a demand to in fact subsidize other people? So, it certainly appears that you are the one lecturing us on how to act, as you seem to be quite fond of telling everyone what to do (as your post is proof of).

 

Try taking your own advice for a change. :mad:

 

Oh when will I ever learn to not feed the Princess trolls......chomp.....chomp.....:rolleyes:

[RDC1]

Interesting rhetoric, but you fail to mention who monitors these funds.

 

Again pretty simple. All publicly traded firms have to have their financials audited. So you have the checks on internal controls as defined by Sarbanes Oxley. Those are confirmed by their auditor.

 

If an auditor were to detect a violation of financial reporting rules or to find a lack of controls they are required to report it, and in most cases not to sign off on the annual report. In that case the companies stock would be pretty much cut in half. Claiming the benefits of the gratuity policy and then violating a portion of the rules concerning complete distribution would cost the company far far more than any benefit they would receive.

 

Or to put it simply the same tracking as it would be if the money was all salary and included in revenue.

From the annual report

 

Management’s Annual Report on Internal Control over Financial Reporting

47

 

Our management is responsible for establishing and maintaining adequate internal control over financial reporting, as such term is defined in the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 Rule 13a-15(f). Under the supervision and with the participation of our management, including our President and Chief Executive Officer and our Chief Financial Officer and Chief Accounting Officer, we conducted an evaluation of the effectiveness of our internal control over financial reporting based on the 2013 Internal Control – Integrated Framework, issued by the Committee of Sponsoring Organizations of the Treadway Commission (“COSO Framework”). Based on our evaluation under the COSO Framework, our management concluded that our internal control over financial reporting was effective as of November 30, 2016.

PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP, the independent registered certified public accounting firm that audited our consolidated financial statements incorporated in this Form 10-K, has also audited the effectiveness of our internal control over financial reporting as of November 30, 2016 as stated in their report, which is shown in Exhibit 13 and is incorporated by reference into this Form 10-K.

Edited August 15, 2017 by RDC1

[RDC1]

I think this is an interesting take. They do try to push customary American Norms, yet they flag their ships in other countries to avoid US laws. Cruise lines complain about the Jones act and would love to be able to cruise without stops in foreign ports. So they are trying to have congress void the act. There is a way they can stop in as many ports as they wish under the Jones Act, abide by US labor laws. Pay the staff and taxes that go along with it. Norwegian did that with their Hawaiian Trips for years.

 

They follow US norms because most of their customers are US, even on their European cruises. For Australian cruises the majority of their passengers are Australian, the sail under an Australian based subsidiary, the use Australian currency and follow Australian norms when it comes to tipping.

[sloopsailor]

Oh when will I ever learn to not feed the Princess trolls......chomp.....chomp.....:rolleyes:

 

You certainly have a knack for being wrong, don't you? I am a Celebrity fan, not a Princess fan. I have only been on one Princess cruise, and that was just this past June on a cruise to Alaska. We chose Princess since it had a ship home ported in San Francisco, just an hour from were we live. Not having to fly to take a cruise was worth turning to Princess over Celebrity for this one cruise. We found Princess adequate for our needs, but still prefer Celebrity. We won't rule Princess out, but will probably start looking at Celebrity first when researching our next cruise. We think they have a better product in some ways, and just as good in others.

 

So, sorry to tell you, but you are very wrong. I am not a Princess troll, since I am not a Princess fan. However, I am a fan of fair treatment of the crew who help make our cruises memorable, regardless of the cruise line they work for. I will always be an advocate for people graciously providing them the gratuities they so deserve. I am on their side on this matter, not yours. So call me a "crew troll" if it makes you feel like you are better than me. I really don't care what you have to do to be able to tolerate yourself.

 

In the future, try to be a bit more diplomatic instead of caustic. You will be much more likely to have people actually care about what you post here if you take the high road rather than the low one you continue to take in your posts.

Edited August 15, 2017 by sloopsailor

[caribill]

why not revert to the old system where the employee receives the cash directly from the passenger? Currently I will assume the cash sits in the cruise line bank accounts - nice little earner btw - and they control the distribution but it is not their money?

 

 

Why not revert to the old system?

a) It was a big pain (as well as a time consumer) to get the right cash amounts foir the various envelopes.

b) The old system did not reward all employees with similar jobs equally. How many people actually would give tip money to the staff at the pizza counter or at the burger grill or the server behind the counter at the International Cafe or the staff that picked up the used dishes from customers of the International Cafe.

c) Those with anytime dining who have different staff serving them each evening would have to carry cash with them every night for tipping

 

And as far as where the cash sits, it is distributed to the staff regularly. I do not know how many keep it in cash in their cabin or keep it in an employee's on board account or send it home on a regular basis.

Edited August 15, 2017 by caribill

[caribill]

A couple of years ago Holland America included taxes and fees in the amount listed on their web site for cruise fare. That lasted about 3 months before they went back to showing the cruise fare and listing the taxes and fees separately. That was a clear demonstration on competition in the cruise industry and just how sensitive it is to price.

 

Princess also did that for several months, but I do not know if it was at the same time as Holland America.

 

Princess called it "What you see is what you pay."

 

Posters on Cruise Critic liked this approach as it was less effort to know the total booking price although they still had to do the calculations when evaluating cruises on other cruise lines.

 

Princess suddenly discontinued doing this, I suspect for the same reasons as Holland America did.

[brian1]

Cruises booked n the UK are actually cheaper than n the US, so its the US market at the moment paying more

How do you know that? I thought the opposite,we pay a lot more than US ,with all the discounts and perks they get.

[antsp]

How do you know that? I thought the opposite,we pay a lot more than US ,with all the discounts and perks they get.

 

I price the cruise on Princess UK and Princess US website. They are only cheaper because the £ is weak. We always used to book in the US but at the moment that's no longer the case

[BunnieBear]

How do you know that? I thought the opposite,we pay a lot more than US ,with all the discounts and perks they get.

You get the perk of an upgrade or onboard credit if the price of your cruise goes down between booking and paying, and refundable deposits I believe? We didn't get that.

 

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[brian1]

Aha, thank you. Yes, Seattle. That'll be my first US city. Not that there'll be much time for anything but racing around trying to fit everything into the 2 days we have there.

 

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Hi,try the 2 HOHO bus routes,good way to see Seattle.Alaska doesnt need sales tax,its already an arm and a leg,lol,cheers,Brian.

[BunnieBear]

Hi,try the 2 HOHO bus routes,good way to see Seattle.Alaska doesnt need sales tax,its already an arm and a leg,lol,cheers,Brian.

A Tracy arm and a King Crab leg? Thanks for the tip.

 

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[brian1]

A Tracy arm and a King Crab leg? Thanks for the tip.

 

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Look out for the KCLs in the mdr and buffet,cheers,Brian.

[pablo222]

Please show me this post. A non truth from you

 

"I like to bring slightly controversial topics to cc to make it intresting."

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=51965441&postcount=43

 

Always happy to help.

[Fosters1951]

It is interesting reading post that state gratuities are "Included" in the fare in Australia - which is incorrect. As previously posted, with what princess states in regards to Gratuities, for ships based in Australia, during their Australian "Season", the gratuities are not included in the fare:-

"For our Australian guests, when sailing on cruises departing from Australia aboard Sun Princess, Dawn Princess or Sea Princess, a daily gratuity amount will no longer be added to your on board account. You are welcome to reward our on board crew for exceptional service, however, tipping is not required."

 

This Cruise Critic article explains the reason why the 3 Princess ships, when based in Australia, along with Carnival Spirit, Carnival Legend and all P&O Australian ships have the same policy on gratuities, and do not add gratuities to onboard account:-

https://www.cruisecritic.com.au/articles.cfm?ID=1591

Before anyone decides to assume, I will point out that we do not remove the gratuities and happily accept this. We have always had excellent experiences on board and fully understand the many reasons gratuities are added (as so many have pointed out previously).

[pablo222]

It is interesting reading post that state gratuities are "Included" in the fare in Australia - which is incorrect. As previously posted, with what princess states in regards to Gratuities, for ships based in Australia, during their Australian "Season", the gratuities are not included in the fare:-

"For our Australian guests, when sailing on cruises departing from Australia aboard Sun Princess, Dawn Princess or Sea Princess, a daily gratuity amount will no longer be added to your on board account. You are welcome to reward our on board crew for exceptional service, however, tipping is not required.".

 

Thank you for the details.

 

I'm still not sure what happens with a princess ship, like emerald, doing a single season in Australia.

Is it sailing for Princess Cruises, or Princess Australia?

 

Regardless, if there were some way changing the situation would help Micky Arison, the carnival accountants

would make it happen in a heart-beat.

 

Maybe they can get some advice from Apple on avoiding taxes...

[RocketMan275]

It is interesting reading post that state gratuities are "Included" in the fare in Australia - which is incorrect. As previously posted, with what princess states in regards to Gratuities, for ships based in Australia, during their Australian "Season", the gratuities are not included in the fare:-

"For our Australian guests, when sailing on cruises departing from Australia aboard Sun Princess, Dawn Princess or Sea Princess, a daily gratuity amount will no longer be added to your on board account. You are welcome to reward our on board crew for exceptional service, however, tipping is not required."

 

This Cruise Critic article explains the reason why the 3 Princess ships, when based in Australia, along with Carnival Spirit, Carnival Legend and all P&O Australian ships have the same policy on gratuities, and do not add gratuities to onboard account:-

https://www.cruisecritic.com.au/articles.cfm?ID=1591

Before anyone decides to assume, I will point out that we do not remove the gratuities and happily accept this. We have always had excellent experiences on board and fully understand the many reasons gratuities are added (as so many have pointed out previously).

 

I'm not so sure that the statement "gratuities are "Included" in the fare in Australia is incorrect. The statement says they are not added to the on-board account and says nothing about whether they are "included" in the fare. The fare and the on-board account are not the same thing.

[antsp]

"I like to bring slightly controversial topics to cc to make it intresting."

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=51965441&postcount=43

 

Always happy to help.

And how is that a lie

[RDC1]

It is interesting reading post that state gratuities are "Included" in the fare in Australia - which is incorrect. As previously posted, with what princess states in regards to Gratuities, for ships based in Australia, during their Australian "Season", the gratuities are not included in the fare:-

"For our Australian guests, when sailing on cruises departing from Australia aboard Sun Princess, Dawn Princess or Sea Princess, a daily gratuity amount will no longer be added to your on board account. You are welcome to reward our on board crew for exceptional service, however, tipping is not required."

 

This Cruise Critic article explains the reason why the 3 Princess ships, when based in Australia, along with Carnival Spirit, Carnival Legend and all P&O Australian ships have the same policy on gratuities, and do not add gratuities to onboard account:-

https://www.cruisecritic.com.au/articles.cfm?ID=1591

Before anyone decides to assume, I will point out that we do not remove the gratuities and happily accept this. We have always had excellent experiences on board and fully understand the many reasons gratuities are added (as so many have pointed out previously).

 

The way that I read the statement from Princess is that they are included in the fare and as such not added to the shipboard account and that tipping is not required. I would suspect that since they are buried in the fare, Princess does not want to point out that they still exist, that they just raised the fare to cover them.

 

These are the ships controlled by Princess Australia.

Edited August 15, 2017 by RDC1

[AE_Collector]

I find it acceptable for Princess to say that Gratuities are included on Australian based cruises as they are either topping up the pay or kicking in to top up the gratuity pool on those cruises. If they weren't there would be a noticibly poorer cruise experience there with crew potentially working an entire contract for half their normal amount of pay. We have determined that the "auto gratuities" are really a service charge which is a significant portion of the crew members pay, not an extra $10-$20 for exceptional service.

 

AE_Collector

Edited August 15, 2017 by AE_Collector
Typos

[AE_Collector]

Thank you for the details.

 

I'm still not sure what happens with a princess ship, like emerald, doing a single season in Australia.

Is it sailing for Princess Cruises, or Princess Australia?

 

Emerald Princess was operating in A$ up until April 12 when she left Sydney for NZ and then on to LA and Vancouver. Presumably gratuities were included for Australian passengers.

 

Initially she was going to operate in A$ on the 7 day Sydney to Auckland but as most (90%) of passengers from Sydney were going to LA or Vancouver and even on to Alaska they decided to change to US$ leaving Sydney on April 12. This change resulted in numerous "problems". For example, a $130 Australian shore excursion became a $130 US shore excursion (rather than $100 US - the Princess exchange rate was 30%) on passenger accounts. This took quite awhile to correct and once it was adjusted we had lost the 10% discounted sale price that we had on these excursions. After waiting awhile for the dust to settle I enquired and they fixed this for us as well but not until we asked so many others may have lost their discounts unknowingly.

 

AE_Collector

[BunnieBear]

Look out for the KCLs in the mdr and buffet,cheers,Brian.

On NCL do you think?

I'm not so sure that the statement "gratuities are "Included" in the fare in Australia is incorrect. The statement says they are not added to the on-board account and says nothing about whether they are "included" in the fare. The fare and the on-board account are not the same thing.

 

 

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