Interesting story re: Jones Act

[Kamloops50]

If the hospitals need fuel for their generators, would it be feasible to fly it to them with helicopters until the roads are passable.

 

This would also apply for emergency supplies.

 

It depends on the helicopters available.

[chengkp75]

It is a silly law it should be cancelled.

 

Please explain why its silly, so the 500,000 US citizens that derive their income from Jones Act business can understand. Also, please explain it to the other 80 nations around the world that have similar cabotage laws, including Russia, Brazil, China, Japan, Australia, the EU, and in their own way the UK.

[joepeka]

In truth, I would suspect that this Jones Act waiver will have about as much effect as the one for Irma, where exactly one foreign flag ship loaded domestic fuel from the Gulf coast and took it to Florida, after the storm, when the avowed reason for the waiver was to get fuel to the stranded motorists ahead of the storm. In the meantime, there were 6 Jones Act tankers stacked up outside the Florida ports with gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, just waiting for the ports to reopen. There are Jones Act dry cargo ships that are dedicated to the US to PR trade, and are waiting for clearance to bring cargo to the ports.

Thanks for the clarification Chief. I'm guessing the "clearance" that the dry cargo ships await is the suitability of the ports (San Juan in particular) to be able to accept the traffic?

[chengkp75]

Thanks for the clarification Chief. I'm guessing the "clearance" that the dry cargo ships await is the suitability of the ports (San Juan in particular) to be able to accept the traffic?

 

It's the clearance that there is room to store the supplies at the port, since they cannot get the supplies moved from the port to the areas that need them. It's no good piling stuff up that is only going to rot or get damaged from improper storage until it can be used.

[swedish weave]

It depends on the helicopters available.

 

Really ????? They can be made available.if needed...

[RDC1]

It depends on the helicopters available.

 

The bigger problem is if the needs can be communicated. There seems to be a lot of emergency workers and military on the ground there. But until communications can be reestablished it is hard to even identify where things are needed let alone get them there.

[dogo88]

Really ????? They can be made available.if needed...

 

Really? Care to tell where a few dozen are available for use along with flight and maintenance crews?

[dockman]

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-buchholz-pvsa-cruise-20170803-story.html

[swedish weave]

Really? Care to tell where a few dozen are available for use along with flight and maintenance crews?

Ever hear of the US Government or Air Force?????

Or maybe even FEMA...

[avian777]

Ever hear of the US Government or Air Force?????

Or maybe even FEMA...

 

(y)(y)(y)

[chengkp75]

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-buchholz-pvsa-cruise-20170803-story.html

 

Ah, and this one resurfaces.

 

The PVSA is not to blame for the lack of US flag cruise ships, it is the Merchant Marine Act of 1936, which while it prepared us for WWII by becoming the largest merchant fleet in the world, it used construction and operating subsidies to do so. The continued use of this act led shipbuilding, ship owners, and maritime labor to ignore developing new technologies and new management techniques that would have produced more efficient ships and crews, and instead focused on passing the additional cost of operating a US flag ship to the taxpayers through the subsidies. This is what has priced the US Merchant Marine out of business, not the PVSA or Jones Act.

 

Mention of the Pride of America as a "bungled" build, when in fact, the only reason it wasn't finished in the US was that the original owner, Hawaiian American Cruises went bankrupt. If the hull was "unfloatable", how was it towed to Germany? NCL took it to Germany, to complete it there because the European yards have the expertise to complete the passenger areas of cruise ships, and NCL had spent too much on the hull and machinery in paying off the US government loan guarantees, so they wanted to keep costs reasonable, and complete the ship in a reasonable time frame. The ship is not billed as made in America, and it received a waiver of the PVSA because NCL paid the US government for the loan.

 

And I would say that the number of jobs the PVSA protects, on ferries, commuter boats and water taxis, sight seeing boats, duck boats, whale watching boats, casino boats, and dinner cruises more than offsets the potential loss of jobs if cruise ships could carry coastwise passengers.

 

And if "without the PVSA, dozens more cruises would depart from US ports", then why isn't CLIA working to repeal the PVSA, as they did for Puerto Rico, which took ten years of lobbying, and resulted in Carnival running one way cruises for a couple of years and then dropping them? Because CLIA has stated that their members see "no benefit to their bottom lines" in repeal of the PVSA.

[chengkp75]

Industry reports out of PR yesterday showed that there were 10,000 containers stacked in San Juan, for days, and there is no answer as to how to distribute this material. This is being brought in by Jones Act tonnage from the US, and foreign flag tonnage from overseas, as is typical for all shipping to PR.

[sail7seas]

Industry reports out of PR yesterday showed that there were 10,000 containers stacked in San Juan, for days, and there is no answer as to how to distribute this material. This is being brought in by Jones Act tonnage from the US, and foreign flag tonnage from overseas, as is typical for all shipping to PR.

News reports I have head saids U.S. Army is en route to Puuerto rrico and two generals who will direct the clearing of roads, get ade

[dogo88]

Ever hear of the US Government or Air Force?????

Or maybe even FEMA...

 

FEMA has been there since before the storm hit.

 

Care to tell us where these extra helicopters, flight and maintenance crews and equipment is lying around and available?

Of course it's easy to say just move them over to PR. The actual logistics takes time and staff. But sitting behind a computer it's easy to join the crying crowd.

 

And with all the uninformed Jones Act comments on this thread try going to other sites for a broader opinion instead of CNN or LA TIMES and their talking points.

Here is an industry website for an opposing point of view for removing the Jones Act for PR:

 

http://gcaptain.com/crowley-maritime-puerto-rico-jones-act-waiver-not-needed/

 

Unfortunately facts and reality don't get the clicks that crying politicians get.

[AmazedByCruising]

Please explain why its silly, so the 500,000 US citizens that derive their income from Jones Act business can understand. Also, please explain it to the other 80 nations around the world that have similar cabotage laws, including Russia, Brazil, China, Japan, Australia, the EU, and in their own way the UK.

 

A lot of industries everywhere on the world are protected, and it's rather easy to estimate the number of employees that are protected with them. However, it's very hard to measure the jobs lost because of the protection.

 

To give a weird example, you could divide New York into 100 little parts, and say that every pizza delivery company can only deliver in their "own part". I'm quite sure some areas will have new companies and new jobs with them, and they are happy with their protection and will want to keep it. The companies that go bankrupt won't lobby to remove the new rules, as they do not exist anymore. After a short while, the customers get used to the higher pizza prices. They'll buy fewer pizzas, of course, but they won't realize that they are paying a penalty on every pizza to keep the rules in place.

 

People working in what's left of the pizza delivery willl say that the rules are good, thousands of deliverers, cleaners, supplyers are depending on the rules. And, they'll say, look at the shipping industry, they are protected just like we are.

 

Here's a great http://silentpc.org/university/Candlemaker.pdf piece written centuries ago.

 

Not only does the shipbuilding industry support the Jones Act (and the industry does very well building Jones Act tonnage at 3-4 yards around the country), but the US military supports the Jones Act as a way to maintain the necessary infrastructure for national defense (shipbuilding, a pool of qualified mariners). The need for this was seen during the First Gulf War, when there were not enough US flag ships of the proper types to support the military in Saudi Arabia, and cargoes were shipped on foreign flag ships, until those ships declared they would not enter the war zone.

 

These are arguments are can agree with.

[sail7seas]

Really? Care to tell where a few dozen are available for use along with flight and maintenance crews?

 

 

Let s consider the condition of the airports inP erto Rico, run ways, condition of landing o, naviagtional aids., debris

Edited September 29, 2017 by sail7seas

[dogo88]

More help on the way to add to what's already there. Very good article just released:

 

https://news.usni.org/2017/09/29/navy-will-provide-puerto-rico-direly-needed-hospital-services-wake-hurricane-maria#more-28519

 

One small piece of the article:

"Meanwhile, Marines and sailors from the Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group are continuing to work with FEMA and other medical officials to assess the status of Puerto Rico’s hospitals. Marines and sailors are helping restore power to hospitals, and in some cases, even transporting civilian teams to assess facilities still hard to access because of debris blocking roads."

[swedish weave]

FEMA has been there since before the storm hit.

 

Care to tell us where these extra helicopters, flight and maintenance crews and equipment is lying around and available?

Of course it's easy to say just move them over to PR. The actual logistics takes time and staff. But sitting behind a computer it's easy to join the crying crowd.

 

And with all the uninformed Jones Act comments on this thread try going to other sites for a broader opinion instead of CNN or LA TIMES and their talking points.

Here is an industry website for an opposing point of view for removing the Jones Act for PR:

 

http://gcaptain.com/crowley-maritime-puerto-rico-jones-act-waiver-not-needed/

 

Unfortunately facts and reality don't get the clicks that crying politicians get.

 

In emergencies and when people need help, our government can make things happen. My suggestion is based on reality, not speculation.

 

Puerto Rico is not that far away and the USA has,the,equipment to handle emergencies, so it should be done.

[chengkp75]

A lot of industries everywhere on the world are protected, and it's rather easy to estimate the number of employees that are protected with them. However, it's very hard to measure the jobs lost because of the protection.

 

To give a weird example, you could divide New York into 100 little parts, and say that every pizza delivery company can only deliver in their "own part". I'm quite sure some areas will have new companies and new jobs with them, and they are happy with their protection and will want to keep it. The companies that go bankrupt won't lobby to remove the new rules, as they do not exist anymore. After a short while, the customers get used to the higher pizza prices. They'll buy fewer pizzas, of course, but they won't realize that they are paying a penalty on every pizza to keep the rules in place.

 

People working in what's left of the pizza delivery willl say that the rules are good, thousands of deliverers, cleaners, supplyers are depending on the rules. And, they'll say, look at the shipping industry, they are protected just like we are.

 

Here's a great http://silentpc.org/university/Candlemaker.pdf piece written centuries ago.

 

 

 

These are arguments are can agree with.

 

While you are correct that it is difficult to prove a negative, repeal of the Jones Act would absolutely result in the loss of the 500,000 jobs to US citizens, and the loss of their wages being spent in the US. I'm not going to debate your "pizza" example, as it makes some very dubious assumptions just in its own situation, let alone trying to translate it into cabotage.

[AmazedByCruising]

While you are correct that it is difficult to prove a negative, repeal of the Jones Act would absolutely result in the loss of the 500,000 jobs to US citizens, and the loss of their wages being spent in the US. I'm not going to debate your "pizza" example, as it makes some very dubious assumptions just in its own situation, let alone trying to translate it into cabotage.

 

OK, then let's just say that "500,000 jobs" should not be used as an argument without showing that the new jobs, new wages and general wellfare of the US public after repealing the Act are worse.

 

Less far fetched than the pizzas. Imagine a lobby for a "Stoker Protection Act", making ships burn coal instead of choosing other fuels. Which is not unthinkable, as firemen were still employed by railways long after the trains switched to diesel, to protect jobs. I think there are more cruise consultants now than there were stokers at any time, and those jobs wouldn't exist if the stokers got protected. Consumers can choose between a resort and a ship and tens of millions prefer the ship. Last cruise I made, I was sending thousands of dollars to Miami.

 

Can I prove that a repeal of JA and PVSA would ultimately be benificial to US citizens? No. I think it is but I can't prove it. But IMHO there are "obvious laws", which a 5 year old would understand. "Do not set you neighbours house on fire". No much proof needed that that's a good law. For a law that says "Don't bring goods from New York to Miami if your ship wasn't build in America", the burden of proof is with its proponents.

[chengkp75]

OK, then let's just say that "500,000 jobs" should not be used as an argument without showing that the new jobs, new wages and general wellfare of the US public after repealing the Act are worse.

 

Less far fetched than the pizzas. Imagine a lobby for a "Stoker Protection Act", making ships burn coal instead of choosing other fuels. Which is not unthinkable, as firemen were still employed by railways long after the trains switched to diesel, to protect jobs. I think there are more cruise consultants now than there were stokers at any time, and those jobs wouldn't exist if the stokers got protected. Consumers can choose between a resort and a ship and tens of millions prefer the ship. Last cruise I made, I was sending thousands of dollars to Miami.

 

Can I prove that a repeal of JA and PVSA would ultimately be benificial to US citizens? No. I think it is but I can't prove it. But IMHO there are "obvious laws", which a 5 year old would understand. "Do not set you neighbours house on fire". No much proof needed that that's a good law. For a law that says "Don't bring goods from New York to Miami if your ship wasn't build in America", the burden of proof is with its proponents.

 

So, let's ask this. Is the law that requires an EU ship to carry goods between say Genoa and Venice, or Marseilles and Le Havre, or Zeeland and Amsterdam, or on the rivers of Europe, an "obvious" law? Do you think repealing this would result in benefits to the citizens of the EU? Or would it more benefit the citizens of Indonesia or the Philippines, where most of the jobs would go? The Jones Act and PVSA merely levels the playing field with most other maritime nations around the world who practice similar cabotage practices.

 

And those thousands of dollars you send to Miami for your cruises are with the PVSA still in effect. Can you say that repealing it would increase those dollars? 'Cause CLIA can't say that, and I think they have the data to determine this while you and I don't.

[AmazedByCruising]

So, let's ask this. Is the law that requires an EU ship to carry goods between say Genoa and Venice, or Marseilles and Le Havre, or Zeeland and Amsterdam, or on the rivers of Europe, an "obvious" law?

 

No of course those are "weird" laws, certainly not "obvious" ones.

 

Do you think repealing this would result in benefits to the citizens of the EU?

 

Yes.

 

Or would it more benefit the citizens of Indonesia or the Philippines, where most of the jobs would go?

 

The "Or" is wrong. It would benefit EU-citizens in general, AND Indonesians.

 

To compare, the whole cruise industry relies on cheap labor from Indonesians and Philipinos. I think people doing a $300 cruise on a Carnival Cruise wouldn't be cruising if every cleaner was an American expecting US salaries and US working hours. There would be no industry like there is now, just a few nice ships for the happy few. Everyone working for the lines in Miami would need another job. It's a good thing when Indonesians also get a job, it's not a zero sum game.

 

The Jones Act and PVSA merely levels the playing field with most other maritime nations around the world who practice similar cabotage practices.

 

Other countries acting against their own interests doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

And those thousands of dollars you send to Miami for your cruises are with the PVSA still in effect. Can you say that repealing it would increase those dollars? 'Cause CLIA can't say that, and I think they have the data to determine this while you and I don't.

 

OK, maybe a bit unclear here. Those dollars were sent without the imaginary "Stoker Protection Act", on cruises around Europe where PVSA doesn't apply. Also, in the EU there is no real PVSA because it's not EU-wide, it's country-wide, and the EU is made of a lot of small countries. A trip between Antwerp and Rotterdam, 48 land miles apart is OK. I haven't heard of a lobby saying that EU cabotage laws should be extended to Europe as a continent and I think I know why. The Indonesians aren't taking over the English ferries between for instance Dover and Calais (while they could), because there's not much labour involved. Only when a lot of labour is needed (like a 1 to 2 crew/pax ratio), it gets interesting to hire cheap waiters, bartenders and cleaners. That only happens in the cruise industry.

 

I can't even imagine what kind of data CLIA could have that would say that PVSA is good for them.

[chengkp75]

 

To compare, the whole cruise industry relies on cheap labor from Indonesians and Philipinos. I think people doing a $300 cruise on a Carnival Cruise wouldn't be cruising if every cleaner was an American expecting US salaries and US working hours. There would be no industry like there is now, just a few nice ships for the happy few. Everyone working for the lines in Miami would need another job. It's a good thing when Indonesians also get a job, it's not a zero sum game.

 

But those Indonesians and Filipinos have their jobs even with the PVSA in effect. Without it, the other protected jobs in passenger vessels would transfer from US jobs to foreign jobs. You have no information that opening coastwise passenger service to foreign flag ships would increase the trade, so there is no guarantee that any more jobs, or any more spending would be generated, but a significant amount of US revenue would move offshore.

 

 

 

Other countries acting against their own interests doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

 

 

OK, maybe a bit unclear here. Those dollars were sent without the imaginary "Stoker Protection Act", on cruises around Europe where PVSA doesn't apply. Also, in the EU there is no real PVSA because it's not EU-wide, it's country-wide, and the EU is made of a lot of small countries. A trip between Antwerp and Rotterdam, 48 land miles apart is OK. I haven't heard of a lobby saying that EU cabotage laws should be extended to Europe as a continent and I think I know why. The Indonesians aren't taking over the English ferries between for instance Dover and Calais (while they could), because there's not much labour involved. Only when a lot of labour is needed (like a 1 to 2 crew/pax ratio), it gets interesting to hire cheap waiters, bartenders and cleaners. That only happens in the cruise industry.

 

I can't even imagine what kind of data CLIA could have that would say that PVSA is good for them.

 

I didn't say CLIA felt that the PVSA was "good for them", but they did say that their members "were not interested" in spending money to repeal the PVSA, because they felt there would be "no significant change in their bottom line". As I said, Puerto Rico lobbied, along with the cruise industry, for 10 years to get an exemption to the PVSA for Puerto Rico, and when it happened, what was the result? Carnival did one way cruises for a couple of years and has since dropped them.

[styxfire]

It is clear that P.R. has no plan in place for road debris, or electrical loss. U.S. has delivered LIFE-SAVING supplies to P.R. Yet P.R. officials/citizens have left supplies sitting for days on the coastline. I understand the dilemma... my town was hit by the EYE of Hurricane Irma. Gas was non-existent for a week. Electricity? None here.

 

But the stories of supplies in P.R. waiting to be picked up and can't because drivers won't show up.... hey, my suspicious radar goes way up. I've lived this nightmare in September. People including myself cut and sawed vegetation to open roadways. Why aren't the P.R. folks pulling tree branches out of the way to help food/water get delivered? The media stories are a bunch of B.S.

 

If there are truly 3.5 mil people in P.R. dying because of lack of supplies, I'd expect to see 2 or 3 of them getting out on the street and working to help their situation. Have you seen any of that?

 

Are people in P.R. getting out and clearing their own roads like I did? Are they checking on their neighbors, are they coming up with a plan? OR IS IT WHAT THE MEDIA SHOWS: FLOODED HOUSES, EVERYONE DOING NOTHING AND WAITING FOR GOVT TO KEEP THEM ALIVE...?

[styxfire]

How many people here would be willing to do a cruise excursion in San Juan or St Thomas in which the customers do some rebuilding? i.e. cleaning up garbage, doing some digging in the dirt, getting really sweaty, helping to rebuild? Most of these ports will have nothing scenic to offer cruisers in the near future. Perhaps cruisers could be givers, instead of takers. If you are cruising, would you be willing to spend a day helping to rebuild? You would get filthy. Really, really filthy. Would you be willing to go on that kind of an excursion, if you didn't have to pay for it? Instead of paying $70 for a bus tour, you could pay $0 and take a bus ride to a place where you could help the hurricane clean-up.... are you willing to do it?

 

How can we make this happen?

Plenty of cruisers in the U.S... how can we get them to help the destroyed islands?