Interesting story re: Jones Act

[Losnab]

I have seen discussions on here about the Jones Act so thought it would be of interest, especially where Puerto Rico is concerned.:

 

 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/hurricane-puerto-rico-jones-act.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

 

 

 

Thanks for posting the link to the very informative factual article. My heart is breaking for Puerto Rico and that our Govt and the US trans industry that is currently positioned in Puerto Rico but lacks Immediate resources so they can do whatever it takes to take care of our own.

[Losnab]

It is clear that P.R. has no plan in place for road debris, or electrical loss. U.S. has delivered LIFE-SAVING supplies to P.R. Yet P.R. officials/citizens have left supplies sitting for days on the coastline. I understand the dilemma... my town was hit by the EYE of Hurricane Irma. Gas was non-existent for a week. Electricity? None here.

 

But the stories of supplies in P.R. waiting to be picked up and can't because drivers won't show up.... hey, my suspicious radar goes way up. I've lived this nightmare in September. People including myself cut and sawed vegetation to open roadways. Why aren't the P.R. folks pulling tree branches out of the way to help food/water get delivered? The media stories are a bunch of B.S.

 

If there are truly 3.5 mil people in P.R. dying because of lack of supplies, I'd expect to see 2 or 3 of them getting out on the street and working to help their situation. Have you seen any of that?

 

Are people in P.R. getting out and clearing their own roads like I did? Are they checking on their neighbors, are they coming up with a plan? OR IS IT WHAT THE MEDIA SHOWS: FLOODED HOUSES, EVERYONE DOING NOTHING AND WAITING FOR GOVT TO KEEP THEM ALIVE...?

 

 

 

I would bet that the people of Puerto Rico are and have been doing just that! Fact: For the most part they have no power or cell towers are 100% off the grid. So easy to blame the media or the people. Our Gov should have taken immediate action and prioritized PR over other BS that clearly belonged on the back burner

 

 

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[dockman]

and another one

 

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/328025-how-the-jones-act-drives-up-the-cost-of-food-and-gasoline

[Tampa Girl]

It is clear that P.R. has no plan in place for road debris, or electrical loss. U.S. has delivered LIFE-SAVING supplies to P.R. Yet P.R. officials/citizens have left supplies sitting for days on the coastline. I understand the dilemma... my town was hit by the EYE of Hurricane Irma. Gas was non-existent for a week. Electricity? None here.

 

But the stories of supplies in P.R. waiting to be picked up and can't because drivers won't show up.... hey, my suspicious radar goes way up. I've lived this nightmare in September. People including myself cut and sawed vegetation to open roadways. Why aren't the P.R. folks pulling tree branches out of the way to help food/water get delivered? The media stories are a bunch of B.S.

 

If there are truly 3.5 mil people in P.R. dying because of lack of supplies, I'd expect to see 2 or 3 of them getting out on the street and working to help their situation. Have you seen any of that?

 

Are people in P.R. getting out and clearing their own roads like I did? Are they checking on their neighbors, are they coming up with a plan? OR IS IT WHAT THE MEDIA SHOWS: FLOODED HOUSES, EVERYONE DOING NOTHING AND WAITING FOR GOVT TO KEEP THEM ALIVE...?

 

Unless you have first-hand knowledge of what you are accusing the Puerto Rico people of being, your accusations are unfounded and unfair. And if you are referring to the Irma damage in Florida, that is hardly an adequate comparison to the the PR devastation.

[styxfire]

Unless you have first-hand knowledge of what you are accusing the Puerto Rico people of being, your accusations are unfounded and unfair. And if you are referring to the Irma damage in Florida, that is hardly an adequate comparison to the the PR devastation.

My accusations of media B.S. are fully founded, and fully fair.

 

Read my other post, and tell us if you're willing to participate in "cruise excursions" that deal with town clean-up and assisting with services.

[avian777]

My accusations of media B.S. are fully founded, and fully fair...

 

Spot on, styxfire! (y) (y) (y)

[Lizzie68]

It is clear that P.R. has no plan in place for road debris, or electrical loss. U.S. has delivered LIFE-SAVING supplies to P.R. Yet P.R. officials/citizens have left supplies sitting for days on the coastline. I understand the dilemma... my town was hit by the EYE of Hurricane Irma. Gas was non-existent for a week. Electricity? None here.

 

But the stories of supplies in P.R. waiting to be picked up and can't because drivers won't show up.... hey, my suspicious radar goes way up. I've lived this nightmare in September. People including myself cut and sawed vegetation to open roadways. Why aren't the P.R. folks pulling tree branches out of the way to help food/water get delivered? The media stories are a bunch of B.S.

 

If there are truly 3.5 mil people in P.R. dying because of lack of supplies, I'd expect to see 2 or 3 of them getting out on the street and working to help their situation. Have you seen any of that?

 

Are people in P.R. getting out and clearing their own roads like I did? Are they checking on their neighbors, are they coming up with a plan? OR IS IT WHAT THE MEDIA SHOWS: FLOODED HOUSES, EVERYONE DOING NOTHING AND WAITING FOR GOVT TO KEEP THEM ALIVE...?

 

What a load of codswallop. Of course the media is lying, they are lining up all the damage and the people to lie to the cameras, stage it all. Of course. And you have absolutely no idea what the people are doing - you are not there, you do not know the conditions in the back country. My goodness, talk about haters, your post sums it all up. And anyone that agrees with you is in the same gutter. PR deserves our compassion and help, just as much as any other human being.

[VennDiagram]

It is clear that P.R. has no plan in place for road debris, or electrical loss. U.S. has delivered LIFE-SAVING supplies to P.R. ...

 

 

I bolded the part I'm replying to. Puerto Rico is part of the U.S. Your comment isn't clear about that information.

[Tampa Girl]

My accusations of media B.S. are fully founded, and fully fair.

 

Read my other post, and tell us if you're willing to participate in "cruise excursions" that deal with town clean-up and assisting with services.

 

First hand knowledge does not mean "opinions." It means that you have seen, with your own eyes, in person, the fact that the Puerto Ricans are not helping each other. It does not mean what you have watched the news media and not seen what you don't really want to see.

 

Now . . . please enlighten us as to what constitutes your first hand, in person, on the ground in PR, post Maria observations?

[dogo88]

First hand knowledge does not mean "opinions." It means that you have seen, with your own eyes, in person, the fact that the Puerto Ricans are not helping each other. It does not mean what you have watched the news media and not seen what you don't really want to see.

 

Now . . . please enlighten us as to what constitutes your first hand, in person, on the ground in PR, post Maria observations?

 

Here ya go. First had report from International Engineering firm based in PR to the NY Post:

 

http://nypost.com/2017/09/30/inept-puerto-rican-government-riddled-with-corruption-ceo/

[chengkp75]

Here ya go. First had report from International Engineering firm based in PR to the NY Post:

 

http://nypost.com/2017/09/30/inept-puerto-rican-government-riddled-with-corruption-ceo/

 

So, this article says the government is corrupt and incompetent. What styxfire is saying is that the people of PR are not doing anything. That is not covered in any way in this article. I don't think anyone believes that the government of PR is efficient, given their debt crisis, but to say that the people are not doing anything, without facts, is just not justified.

[AmazedByCruising]

To compare, the whole cruise industry relies on cheap labor from Indonesians and Philipinos. I think people doing a $300 cruise on a Carnival Cruise wouldn't be cruising if every cleaner was an American expecting US salaries and US working hours. There would be no industry like there is now, just a few nice ships for the happy few. Everyone working for the lines in Miami would need another job. It's a good thing when Indonesians also get a job, it's not a zero sum game.

 

But those Indonesians and Filipinos have their jobs even with the PVSA in effect. Without it, the other protected jobs in passenger vessels would transfer from US jobs to foreign jobs. You have no information that opening coastwise passenger service to foreign flag ships would increase the trade, so there is no guarantee that any more jobs, or any more spending would be generated, but a significant amount of US revenue would move offshore.

 

Yes, but the example was to show that if PVSA was a lot more stricter, by forbidding foreign labor altogether on ships visiting US ports, there simply would be no notable cruise industry. Luckily, PVSA isn't that harsh (but it certainly could have been!), which benefits US employees working in the industry, benefits foreign works, benefits people's pensions invested in Carnival AND benefits cruisers. This historical "experiment" shows a winning situation for everyone.

 

So I can't "guarantee" more jobs or spending. But your arguments could have been used in 1886 as well to implement the "Stoker Protection Act" or a bit stronger PVSA, and it turns out that we were very lucky they didn't listen at the time. Both JA and PVSA are restricting trade, and as such certainly "weirder" than laws on setting houses on fire. So, IMHO, they should be abolished unless its proponents can guarantee it is better for US civilians.

 

I think it's rather doubtful that coastwise passenger service would be overrun by foreigners taking US money for actual transferring guests. Ferries in Europe aren't either.

 

I didn't say CLIA felt that the PVSA was "good for them", but they did say that their members "were not interested" in spending money to repeal the PVSA, because they felt there would be "no significant change in their bottom line". As I said, Puerto Rico lobbied, along with the cruise industry, for 10 years to get an exemption to the PVSA for Puerto Rico, and when it happened, what was the result? Carnival did one way cruises for a couple of years and has since dropped them.

 

That's not what's important. PVSA was partially abolished. Not much good came out of it apparently. But did something bad happen? Has, like you are foreseeing for a repeal of JA, a significant amount of US revenue moved offshore?

[Tampa Girl]

Here ya go. First had report from International Engineering firm based in PR to the NY Post:

 

http://nypost.com/2017/09/30/inept-puerto-rican-government-riddled-with-corruption-ceo/

 

Yes, and consider the source! This is a Robert Murdoch publication, and the writer has his own axe to grind. He is unwilling to work with the PR governments because they are "corrupt." So how does this help get roads cleared, trucks fueled and on the road, and food and water distributed. How does this prove that the PR residents are refusing to help themselves?

 

And, BTW, my post was directed to another poster with question re his first-hand knowledge. The article linked does not constitute first hand knowledge for anyone. It merely reinforces what some unknowledgeable people who are predisposed to believe what they want to believe. That is not an objective analysis of the present situation.

 

And with the foregoing comments, I will sign off this thread.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Tampa Girl
Misspelling

[chengkp75]

Yes, but the example was to show that if PVSA was a lot more stricter, by forbidding foreign labor altogether on ships visiting US ports, there simply would be no notable cruise industry. Luckily, PVSA isn't that harsh (but it certainly could have been!), which benefits US employees working in the industry, benefits foreign works, benefits people's pensions invested in Carnival AND benefits cruisers. This historical "experiment" shows a winning situation for everyone.

 

So I can't "guarantee" more jobs or spending. But your arguments could have been used in 1886 as well to implement the "Stoker Protection Act" or a bit stronger PVSA, and it turns out that we were very lucky they didn't listen at the time. Both JA and PVSA are restricting trade, and as such certainly "weirder" than laws on setting houses on fire. So, IMHO, they should be abolished unless its proponents can guarantee it is better for US civilians.

 

I think it's rather doubtful that coastwise passenger service would be overrun by foreigners taking US money for actual transferring guests. Ferries in Europe aren't either.

 

 

 

That's not what's important. PVSA was partially abolished. Not much good came out of it apparently. But did something bad happen? Has, like you are foreseeing for a repeal of JA, a significant amount of US revenue moved offshore?

 

Well, your argument falls apart completely with "if the PVSA had been a lot stricter". It couldn't have been. The US has no control over what the manning requirements are for foreign flag ships, and could not have enforced this without massive legal battles in international courts and perhaps even war, as the War of 1812 was primarily over the British Navy boarding US ships and press ganging crew, a violation of the US ship's sovereignty. The PVSA can only control commerce that starts and ends in US ports, without going to a foreign port, because as soon as you go to a foreign port, the voyage is no longer coastwise, or covered by the PVSA. The ability of flag states to determine the regulations that their ships follow is a basis of international maritime law, and has been so for centuries. However, the ability of a nation to regulate trade within the nation is a fundamental right of a nation.

 

If you feel that removing the PVSA regulations would be beneficial to the US, that would by definition mean that there would be more traffic than there is under the PVSA and Jones Act. If that is so, then it would follow that this new traffic would be on foreign flag, foreign crewed vessels. Then those companies that originally did Jones Act/PVSA traffic would be at a competitive disadvantage, using higher priced crew and higher operating costs, so they would follow to foreign flag, and yes, the foreign crews would proliferate, and US jobs would be lost.

 

You keep mentioning ferries in Europe, and I seem to believe from an earlier post that you were referring to the typical Dover to Calais route, but this again, is not "coastwise" traffic it is a foreign voyage, from one country to another. Similarly, while the EU restricts coastwise trade to EU flag ships (i.e. from Genoa to Naples), transport from Genoa to Marseilles is not restricted to EU flag ships, as this is international trade, since as you state, each EU member is a nation state.

 

As for the PR exemption to the PVSA, no, no revenue has moved offshore, because there was no revenue there before the exemption was granted. However, it does show that waiving/exempting/repealing the PVSA may not result in an increase of cruise traffic in the US, but on the other hand would transfer any traffic and jobs that are there would be transferred to foreign crew.

 

I also, even though I have to work within them every day, appreciate the stricter safety, training, and inspection requirements that the USCG imposes on US flag ships as opposed to foreign flag ship requirements.

[styxfire]

So, this article says the government is corrupt and incompetent. What styxfire is saying is that the people of PR are not doing anything.

WHAT?

I wrote posts about the media misrepresentation, not about people of P.R.

[styxfire]

What a load of codswallop. Of course the media is lying, they are lining up all the damage and the people to lie to the cameras, stage it all.

I saw the mayor of the largest city giving 8 interviews on the same day, wearing a shirt & hat that were pre-printed with slogans about needing help. What printshop was working after H.Maria? How did she get all that clothing to wear on U.S. media interviews? I am an Irma victim and so I witnessed the media tricks. What you watch on your TV is for RATINGS.

And you have absolutely no idea what the people are doing - you are not there, you do not know the conditions in the back country.

Actually I have a rare job, I work in the back-country ALL YEAR LONG, and 10-20% of the time is in locations without electricity/cell. I live it. Working in the swamp sucks. The humidity, the NEVER-being-able-to-dry-out, the mosquitoes, the massive thirst, the incessant heat, tramping through water, no repreive day or night. I know the backcountry. I know the floods, I know the wet clothes, i know the animals, I know the diseases, the hunger, I know it all, it's my job. I work in the backcountry every day. And ya, once in a while I cruise. When I'm not cruising, I'm walking through swampwater.

[Aquahound]

My accusations of media B.S. are fully founded, and fully fair.

 

I have friends and co-workers working the relief effort in PR, with more on the way. While PR is still in really bad shape, the reports I'm hearing back are that agencies keep running into one another down there. In fact, my agency has sent more relief workers to PR than we did Texas and Florida combined, and we are actually in the process now of sending a second wave to relieve those who have been working since the storm.

 

The problem here is politics. The mayor of SJ is a Democrat who instead of doing the right thing and looking at the storm relief as a non-partisan event, is taking this opportunity to grandstand and bash the President....and these idiotic news source, like CNN, are eating it up. It's a bunch of lies and fake news.

[Flamencacha]

Okay, I usually have to debunk misconceptions about the PVSA here on CC, or the misunderstanding that the Jones Act applies to passenger carriage, but I'll discuss the Jones Act now.

 

 

 

First off, in the wake of a natural disaster, the President can grant Jones Act waivers, which he did in the wake of hurricane Harvey (though that was only to keep a NOLA refinery moving product at full capacity, and only one foreign flag vessel was used). In the wake of Irma, there were 6 US flag Jones Act tankers stacked up waiting for the ports to open to bring in fuel. Why hasn't the President asked for a Jones Act waiver for Puerto Rico? No one has asked.

 

 

 

Not sure what source the Times used for the "rationale" behind the Jones Act, but suffice it to say that it had little to do with U-boats. Senator Jones was from Washington state, and was petitioned by the state's merchants who saw the lucrative business of supplying Alaska being taken by lower cost Canadian shipping. In order to stop this, he sponsored the Jones Act to limit coastwise trade to US vessels.

 

 

 

Not only does the shipbuilding industry support the Jones Act (and the industry does very well building Jones Act tonnage at 3-4 yards around the country), but the US military supports the Jones Act as a way to maintain the necessary infrastructure for national defense (shipbuilding, a pool of qualified mariners). The need for this was seen during the First Gulf War, when there were not enough US flag ships of the proper types to support the military in Saudi Arabia, and cargoes were shipped on foreign flag ships, until those ships declared they would not enter the war zone.

 

 

 

The Jones Act fleet supports nearly a half million jobs in the US (so those people pay US taxes, and spend their money in the US) and contributes over $13 billion to the US economy. Most people don't realize that the vast majority of the Jones Act fleet does not go to sea, but works the harbors, rivers, and Great Lakes of the US. Take away the Jones Act, and those operations now become foreign flag and no longer subject to the stricter USCG safety, training, and certification requirements placed on US flag vessels.

 

 

 

Now, whether or not the USVI should have an exemption to the Jones Act, I really don't think so. What the article doesn't mention is the other US territories exempt from the Jones Act are in the South Pacific, thousands of miles from the mainland US.

 

 

 

The article states that "any foreign flag ship that enters Puerto Rico must pay punitive tariffs, fees, and taxes". This is simply not true. It is true of a vessel that brings goods from the US to Puerto Rico, but ships bringing cargo from overseas are not subject to the Jones Act restrictions. So, major consumer product outlets, like the Walmarts and Walgreens that the article mentions, can get around the Jones Act by shipping directly from their overseas suppliers (let's face it, these US corporations don't get the majority of their stock from US suppliers, it comes from overseas) to Puerto Rico.

 

 

 

 

 

By all means, if it would get required aid to Puerto Rico to rebuild from Maria, grant exemptions to the Jones Act. Don't repeal it, or US waterways and ports will become far less safe.

 

 

 

The Jones Act was waived a week into the Fiasco for Puerto Rico. The request was made Day 1. I signed a petition Day 3.

 

As for the rest of your info, i won't pretend to argue with you since it is not my area of expertise.

But having been a resident of PR for nine years, it does effect the way goods are brought to the Island. Unless of course they have been lying.

 

 

 

 

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[swedish weave]

The Jones Act was waived a week into the Fiasco for Puerto Rico. The request was made Day 1. I signed a petition Day 3.

 

As for the rest of your info, i won't pretend to argue with you since it is not my area of expertise.

But having been a resident of PR for nine years, it does effect the way goods are brought to the Island. Unless of course they have been lying.

/quote/

 

Is it true that several tons of supplies are in PR that are not being distributed to places they are needed?

 

If true, what are the local people and authorities doing to alleviate that problem??

[avian777]

I saw the mayor of the largest city giving 8 interviews on the same day, wearing a shirt & hat that were pre-printed with slogans about needing help. What printshop was working after H.Maria? How did she get all that clothing to wear on U.S. media interviews? I am an Irma victim and so I witnessed the media tricks. What you watch on your TV is for RATINGS...

 

Great Post!!! (y)(y)(y) Thanks, styxfire, for your invaluable insights.

[avian777]

I have friends and co-workers working the relief effort in PR, with more on the way. While PR is still in really bad shape, the reports I'm hearing back are that agencies keep running into one another down there. In fact, my agency has sent more relief workers to PR than we did Texas and Florida combined, and we are actually in the process now of sending a second wave to relieve those who have been working since the storm.

 

The problem here is politics. The mayor of SJ is a Democrat who instead of doing the right thing and looking at the storm relief as a non-partisan event, is taking this opportunity to grandstand and bash the President....and these idiotic news source, like CNN, are eating it up. It's a bunch of lies and fake news.

 

Awesome Post, Aquahound!!! So refreshing to see a Post based on fact rather than on partisan rhetoric. Thanks for bringing light to the discussion. (y)(y)(y)

[Flamencacha]

The Jones Act was waived a week into the Fiasco for Puerto Rico. The request was made Day 1. I signed a petition Day 3.

 

 

 

As for the rest of your info, i won't pretend to argue with you since it is not my area of expertise.

 

But having been a resident of PR for nine years, it does effect the way goods are brought to the Island. Unless of course they have been lying.

 

/quote/

 

 

 

Is it true that several tons of supplies are in PR that are not being distributed to places they are needed?

 

 

 

If true, what are the local people and authorities doing to alleviate that problem??

 

 

 

Good question? It depends who you ask.

 

Fuel issue?

 

Lazy Truckdrivers?

 

I have even heard these supplies belong to the stores, that FEMA disowned them.

 

I know from my ex coworkers that everything being distributed comes from private sources. They even had to evacuate their families through private efforts. These are federal employees.

 

The US Army General should have been assigned immediately. ( assigned the following week) You can't run a disaster relief effort without communications. Believe me locals are working, they are not lazy. I wish the bickering would stop.

 

 

 

 

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