HAL word play

[Big Chief]

Earlier this year HAL announced that cruise ports scheduled for after 2/1/18 would be unaffected by the recent hurricanes. Well it turns out that the itinerary (while technically not cancelling a port) published on the HAL web site for the 2/14/18 Eurodam cruise (11 days) now has converted 2 ports to "cruise only" (St Lucia and Martinique). This game of semantics, essentially create a 3 sea day cruise to a 5 day "sail around. I find it interesting that this "cruise only" designation was not added until the final payment deadline passed. HAL will probably rely on their contract of carriage and state they can change anything they want, anytime they want.

[kazu]

Earlier this year HAL announced that cruise ports scheduled for after 2/1/18 would be unaffected by the recent hurricanes. Well it turns out that the itinerary (while technically not cancelling a port) published on the HAL web site for the 2/14/18 Eurodam cruise (11 days) now has converted 2 ports to "cruise only" (St Lucia and Martinique). This game of semantics, essentially create a 3 sea day cruise to a 5 day "sail around. I find it interesting that this "cruise only" designation was not added until the final payment deadline passed. HAL will probably rely on their contract of carriage and state they can change anything they want, anytime they want.

 

Seriously??

 

I am NOT a cheerleader but the hurricanes did a lot of damage. Some islands were hopeful they would be up and running. HAL just went by the information provided.

 

If things improve again, you may get another new itinerary and find that the "sail arounds" that you are complaining about become visits.

 

The fact that the info came after final payment is just a matter of when the info came out. Nothing to do with YOUR final payment. That's when it came out to everyone.

 

Some islands in the Caribbean have suffered horribly.

 

Let's just be grateful we can cruise.

[iflyrc5]

Earlier this year HAL announced that cruise ports scheduled for after 2/1/18 would be unaffected by the recent hurricanes. Well it turns out that the itinerary (while technically not cancelling a port) published on the HAL web site for the 2/14/18 Eurodam cruise (11 days) now has converted 2 ports to "cruise only" (St Lucia and Martinique). This game of semantics, essentially create a 3 sea day cruise to a 5 day "sail around. I find it interesting that this "cruise only" designation was not added until the final payment deadline passed. HAL will probably rely on their contract of carriage and state they can change anything they want, anytime they want.

Interesting - we are sailing on the Koningsdam on Jan 3 and will be STOPPING at both St Lucia and Martinique. I have rechecked our boarding passes and the HAL website and it still has us STOPPING at both of these ports. They do show a "scenic cruising Soufriere Bay" when leaving St. Lucia and "Daylight Passing of Mount Pelee" when leaving Martinique. Both of these are normal and happen with most every visit to these ports but the ship does stop. It is just a way for HAL to try and make it look like you are getting more for you cruise.

[sail7seas]

Seriously??

 

I am NOT a cheerleader but the hurricanes did a lot of damage. Some islands were hopeful they would be up and running. HAL just went by the information provided.

 

If things improve again, you may get another new itinerary and find that the "sail arounds" that you are complaining about become visits.

 

The fact that the info came after final payment is just a matter of when the info came out. Nothing to do with YOUR final payment.

 

 

 

 

That's when it came out to everyone.

 

Some islands in the Caribbean have suffered horribly.

 

Let's just be grateful we can cruise.

 

 

 

HAL and no cruise line could know months in advance in what condition those badly sturck islands would be Cruise lines had to depend upon what information offic ials from tghe various island s, supplied them.I'd far rather a port be cancelled than the ship pull into ports that are in no condition t o welcome thousands of cruisers. I don't want to tour and see the damage, destruction and horror the islanders suffered. No loss, iMO, missing Martinique. They must have much work to do in order to be able to welcome tourism back to their island.

 

Sorry for those cruisers who are disappointed. It likely did ocur to some it would take real time toc lean up and g et back to something resembling normal.

Edited December 9, 2017 by sail7seas

[Big Chief]

Wow Kazu, are you on the HAL payroll!?

 

You must not be aware that many ships are visiting these ports during February, as a matter of fact the Rotterdam still intends to call at St Lucia on 2/18.

You don't know when HAL made this decision, I know when they announced it!

(As far a "sailing around" is concerned was there ever consideration given to other ports instead?)

While I certainly have sympathy for those suffering from the hurricane, I am just curious about what HAL knew and when did they know it? Sorry if you felt compelled to defend the cruise line. Perhaps I was wrong to express my concerns in an attempt to get full value for my hard earned dollars.

[bUU]

The point is that it is academic. Their comments about which itineraries would be affected by hurricanes and which would not was not a promise with actionable consequences. Meanwhile the cruise contract that you agree to when you book a cruise is a promise with actionable consequences. This isn't a pro cruise line or anti Cruise Line thing. This is a consumer protection thing. Consumer protection includes educating consumers to understand the nature of the marketplace within which they make their purchases and how various aspects of the marketplace and the way products and services are offered affect them. When the law doesn't protect consumers consumer protection means making sure consumers know that the law doesn't protect consumers. You can consider that that's what folks are doing in this thread for you. Contracts matter. And generally the existence of written terms and conditions override any and all verbal interchanges that take place after the contract has been signed, as is the case you've outlined.

 

It really sucks to be a consumer in our society. I'll give you that. So much is arrayed in the favor of large companies. That's the reality of the situation. And to be fair the mass-market with all of its economies of scale and how that benefits both the suppliers (in terms of lower costs and higher revenues) and us customers (in terms of lower prices) would not work if this were not the case. If you haven't already, you should adopt that reality as the default for your consideration of how things work, with regard to just about everything. It pays to be vigilant in defending yourself from the impact of that reality by being overly cautious with what purchases you make, and it especially pays to be overly skeptical with regard to claims made in the context of terms and conditions that conflict with those claims.

 

This post may have been entered by voice recognition. Please excuse any typographical errors.

[zookiebird]

Big Chief: We're on the same cruise as you The website is confusing and I think its left you with a bit of a misunderstanding. On day 4 we port in Castries, St, Lucia from 8:00am - 4:pm. then cruise Soufriere Bay later that dayy. Its the same for Matrtinique. On day 8 we port in Fort-deFrance from 8:00am - 5:00pm then afterwards cruise by Mount Pelee. Hope this helps. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Cheers.

[iflyrc5]

Big Chief: We're on the same cruise as you The website is confusing and I think its left you with a bit of a misunderstanding. On day 4 we port in Castries, St, Lucia from 8:00am - 4:pm. then cruise Soufriere Bay later that dayy. Its the same for Matrtinique. On day 8 we port in Fort-deFrance from 8:00am - 5:00pm then afterwards cruise by Mount Pelee. Hope this helps. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Cheers.

I believe that you are correct. This is the same wording for these ports on our Koningsdam cruise leaving Jan 3

[kazu]

Wow Kazu, are you on the HAL payroll!?

 

You must not be aware that many ships are visiting these ports during February, as a matter of fact the Rotterdam still intends to call at St Lucia on 2/18.

You don't know when HAL made this decision, I know when they announced it!

(As far a "sailing around" is concerned was there ever consideration given to other ports instead?)

While I certainly have sympathy for those suffering from the hurricane, I am just curious about what HAL knew and when did they know it? Sorry if you felt compelled to defend the cruise line. Perhaps I was wrong to express my concerns in an attempt to get full value for my hard earned dollars.

 

Hello :eek:

 

I am NOT on HAL's payroll. I am honest and forthright.

 

I just looked at your itinerary and while I don't do the Caribbean often, scenic cruising here is a highlight for some of these ports and that is all that is done. I hope you get out on deck or on your verandah and enjoy what you are offered.

 

Would you rather be on some of the unpasable roads? I think not.

Your itinerary looks nice to me. But we do appreciate scenery.

 

https://www.hollandamerica.com/details?webItineraryIdForAudit=C8S11A&fromSearchVacation=true&guestsCount=2&voyageCode=D819&selectedMeta=Interior&shipId=ED

 

Alternatively, if you have the right travel insurance - IF the ports have really been changed you can cancel and get your money back.

 

One port I see on your itinerary has always had Scenic cruising. Perhaps you didn't check the little symbols when you booked - that spot is always scenic I have done this cruise and I know. Maybe look more closely at their itineraries. You have a lot of time to go and are getting your little knickers in a knot and won't have a good cruise if you keep this up.

 

You still have your port stops from what I see. You just need to read carefully . The scenic cruising is AFTER your day in port.

 

But don't flame me because you don't like my answer. I read my itineraries and I know the difference between scenic cruising, tenders and real port dockings ;).

 

There are health and safety issues right now as well. But I am a seasoned traveller. Not a tourist. I wouldn't risk the issues on some of those islands right now.

 

But each to his/her own.

[kazu]

Big Chief: We're on the same cruise as you The website is confusing and I think its left you with a bit of a misunderstanding. On day 4 we port in Castries, St, Lucia from 8:00am - 4:pm. then cruise Soufriere Bay later that dayy. Its the same for Matrtinique. On day 8 we port in Fort-deFrance from 8:00am - 5:00pm then afterwards cruise by Mount Pelee. Hope this helps. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Cheers.

 

I. Looked at your itinerary and you are right.

 

No big deal. You just need to look at the times and it is clear.

 

Scenic cruising may throw some confusion in for some, but this will be lovely cruising. You will have a great time :)

[haladdict]

Changes are sometimes made, for all kinds of reasons. it's all in the contract, so when it happens, go with the flow and have fun.

We have had changes and cancelled ports many times.

Sandra

[sail7seas]

There is not that miuch of great beauty or histotry in Martinique, iMO,,,,,,,,, not a particular favorite for some cruisers though, of course, there are those who disagree.No even good shopping. :D

[TAD2005]

As of right now, 18:10 EST Saturday, Dec 9, the HAL website shows a Feb 18 full day stop at Castries, St. Lucia from 08:00 to 16:00. On that same day, after departing you do a sail-by of the beautiful Pitons of Soufriere Bay. Then on Feb 20 you have a full day stop at Fort-de-France, Martinique, 0800: to 17:00. Then, on the same day, after departing, you have a scenic cruise by Mt Pelee. The OP has NOT lost any ports, this whole thread is meaningless. Please research before you get your hair on fire.

[Big Chief]

Big Chief: We're on the same cruise as you The website is confusing and I think its left you with a bit of a misunderstanding. On day 4 we port in Castries, St, Lucia from 8:00am - 4:pm. then cruise Soufriere Bay later that dayy. Its the same for Matrtinique. On day 8 we port in Fort-deFrance from 8:00am - 5:00pm then afterwards cruise by Mount Pelee. Hope this helps. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Cheers.

 

Yes I was confused, the website had a notation on "St Lucia and Martinique" of CO (with no times mentioned) which at the top of the itinerary page says CO=cruising only.

Thanks for letting me know that we dock and then scenic cruise. I feel much better. Maybe we will see you on the cruise.

[IRL_Joanie]

Earlier this year HAL announced that cruise ports scheduled for after 2/1/18 would be unaffected by the recent hurricanes. Well it turns out that the itinerary (while technically not cancelling a port) published on the HAL web site for the 2/14/18 Eurodam cruise (11 days) now has converted 2 ports to "cruise only" (St Lucia and Martinique). This game of semantics, essentially create a 3 sea day cruise to a 5 day "sail around. I find it interesting that this "cruise only" designation was not added until the final payment deadline passed. HAL will probably rely on their contract of carriage and state they can change anything they want, anytime they want.

 

I can understand your frustration andn displeasure at HAL. Believe me, I'd be furious myself. IF I did some searching after reading your post.

Google Search forr Castries, St Lucia 2017 Hurricane Damage. After the search finished I clicked on the word "Images" and then clicked on the Hurricane Irma option at the top.......... It is horrific to see the ndevastation the island has suffered. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&tbm=isch&q=castries+st+lucia+2017+hurricane+damage&chips=q:castries+st+lucia+2017+hurricane+damage,online_chips:hurricane+irma&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCxffAj_7XAhUi9IMKHSCLCb4Q4lYIKigD&biw=1920&bih=919&dpr=1

St Lucia is my absolute favorite island in the Caribbean. To see the devastation on top of the damages from previous hurricanes.....

It is a poor island and does not have the money to fix things in time for the cruise ships to make it into port this season.

We have to keep in mind that many of these beautiful little islands just do not have the money to fix the things that have to be fixed.

What good does it do to fix the port if the roads to and from it are destroyed?

What good does it do if there are no sites to be seen?

No excursions to be made because there is nothing to see other than mass destruction?

Enjoy the cruiseonly around St Lucia. I'd rather have the option of cruise only around such a beautiful island than not to see it at all.

Joanie

[KroozNut]

HAL will probably rely on their contract of carriage and state they can change anything they want, anytime they want.

 

Yes, and your problem with that is what exactly? :confused:

[Krazy Kruizers]

So glad you have checked your itinerary and feel happier about what is happening.

We have done your itinerary many times and those times for docking and scenic cruising are true.

One difference most times was St Lucia, we were only docked in Castries until about 2 PM. Then we sailed slowing up to the Pitons where a couple of lifeboats were lowered to the water to go and pick up the people who had done an all day ship's tour. Some of the islanders would come out to the ship and beg for people to toss money into the water so they could dice for it. The captain has to keep coming on the PA and asking people not to that as they don't want them diving into the water and getting hurt by the propellors.

[DeeniEncinitas]

Yes I was confused, the website had a notation on "St Lucia and Martinique" of CO (with no times mentioned) which at the top of the itinerary page says CO=cruising only.

Thanks for letting me know that we dock and then scenic cruise. I feel much better. Maybe we will see you on the cruise.

Big Chief,

This is how you should of addresses your comment with the first posting.

It can be confusing but it pays to always read the fine print.

I know I have done it too!

Jacqui(Kazu) I stand by her comments. People can get in a uproar and not like comments and get defensive. All of our CCERS try to help.

Enjoy your great cruise!

Denise:)

[ithaca gal]

There is not that miuch of great beauty or histotry in Martinique, iMO,,,,,,,,, not a particular favorite for some cruisers though, of course, there are those who disagree.No even good shopping. :D

 

It is interesting how different ports are sometimes as subjective as food on a cruise. We have thoroughly enjoyed all of our visits to Martinique and found its history to be very interesting. The story of the tragic disaster of the 1902 eruption of Mt. Pelee is hard to believe -- over 29,000 residents died, with only two survivors -- one being a prisoner being held in a jail cell.

 

Their history during WWI includes the fact that over 18,000 residents went to fight for France. During WWII, 286 tons of gold were sent from France to Martinique for safekeeping. (Also, during the building of the Panama Canal, over 5,000 traveled from Martinique to the area to work on it.)

 

Hollywood apparently felt Martinique was a great setting for the movie "To Have and Have Not" -- Humphrey Bogart, Lauren Bacall, Hoagy Carmichael and Walter Brennan spent plenty of time there during its filming.

 

My husband and I now just like to walk to an authentic French restaurant (no English on the menu -- luckily I speak "restaurant French"!) and have lunch.

 

We love Martinique and jump at the chance to spend a quiet afternoon there.

[bUU]

Yes, and your problem with that is what exactly? :confused:

For those who do have a problem with it please refer to the following thread:

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2560681

 

If you read through that thread you'll see not only is that benefit available for purchase but it has paid off for a lot of people over the last several months. If the terms and conditions of the cruise contract leave you feeling exposed then this is the perfect solution.

 

This message may have been entered using voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

[sail7seas]

So glad you have checked your itinerary and feel happier about what is happening.

We have done your itinerary many times and those times for docking and scenic cruising are true.

One difference most times was St Lucia, we were only docked in Castries until about 2 PM. Then we sailed slowing up to the Pitons where a couple of lifeboats were lowered to the water to go and pick up the people who had done an all day ship's tour. Some of the islanders would come out to the ship and beg for people to toss money into the water so they could dice for it. The captain has to keep coming on the PA and asking people not to that as they don't want them diving into the water and getting hurt by the propellors.

 

 

 

 

Normally the sail around the island to the other side was when we were dressing for late dinner . With the sun settting behind the pitons was a beauti iful sight.

 

I remembergthe kids in the little boatts yelling for monhy, money people would throw frruit with paper money atached by string or rubber band and the kids would dive. fun to watch butye s, dangerous. Morre than one of tghem got beaned in the head when someone with a bad aim gtthrew an apple or orange.

Edited December 10, 2017 by sail7seas

[Aquahound]

Google Search forr Castries, St Lucia 2017 Hurricane Damage. After the search finished I clicked on the word "Images" and then clicked on the Hurricane Irma option at the top.......... It is horrific to see the ndevastation the island has suffered.

 

Huh? :confused: St. Lucia was not heavily damaged in this past year's hurricanes. You must be seeing images from another island.

 

I was on Koningsdam in November and we stopped at both St Lucia and Martinique. These 2 islands are fine. Neither one of these 2 took a direct hit from any of 2017 hurricanes.

 

There is not that miuch of great beauty or histotry in Martinique, iMO,,,,,,,,, not a particular favorite for some cruisers though, of course, there are those who disagree.No even good shopping. :D

 

There's plenty of beauty and history in Martinique....starting with the 4500 ft tall volcano that erupted in 1902 and killed nearly 30,000 people in the capital city. Of course, one wouldn't know about it if one doesn't leave the downtown shopping area.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Aquahound

[innlady1]

I’m on the same cruise. The itinerary has NOT changed. We’ve been to St. Lucia many times. Once leaving the port, the ship sails to Soufriere Bay to pick up passengers there from a HAL shore excursion. Depending upon the Captain, the bow may or may not be opened and drinks served there.

 

Shame on you for posting an alarming message for folks before having the facts.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sail7seas]

Huh? :confused: St. Lucia was not heavily damaged in this past year's hurricanes. You must be seeing images from another island.

 

I was on Koningsdam in November and we stopped at both St Lucia and Martinique. These 2 islands are fine. Neither one of these 2 took a direct hit from any of 2017 hurricanes.

 

 

 

There's plenty of beauty and history in Martinique....starting with the 4500 ft tall volcano that erupted in 1902 and killed nearly 30,000 people in the capital city. Of course, one wouldn't know about it if one doesn't leave the downtown shopping area.

 

 

 

 

 

"One" ? Huh ? Someone?

 

I've been there at least 15 times......... beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I didn't find much bea utiful about a killer volcano but, my idea of beautiful, , of c ourse, is personal to me and eveyone else's to them. ;)

 

The shopping area by comparison is quite dismal, , IMO. No particularly pleasant to spend extended time there.

 

 

In OW, I really did not particularly like any of our visits to Martinique.

Edited December 10, 2017 by sail7seas

[TAD2005]

I agree, hurricanes Irma and Maria only affected islands in the northern part of the Leeward Islands, St. Maarten, Barbuda, Anguilla, Antigua, St. Thomas, USVI , BVI, and Puerto Rico. The southern Leewards and Windwards had only high surf and some beach erosion.