Paradise pays staff Aus $4.30/hour, 14 hour days says short-stay Trainee...

[AmazedByCruising]

So worried about what people who VOUNTARILY go to work for Carnival make? Start your own cruise line and pay the workers as much as you want.

 

"Why don't you simply buy a ship yourself and play your own music if you prefer disco over jazz!", "If the onion soup is too salty, why not start your own cruise line with less salt". There are so many threads waiting for your interesting point of view.

 

I do agree on

I didn't read what color she was in the article. Thanks for bringing that up.:rolleyes:

Edited August 27, 2018 by AmazedByCruising

[Lottacruises]

"Why don't you simply buy a ship yourself and play your own music if you prefer disco over jazz!", "If the onion soup is too salty, why not start your own cruise line with less salt". There are so many threads waiting for your interesting point of view.

 

I do agree on

 

 

I didn't see any online petitions for a less salty onion soup or to play more disco...

[AmazedByCruising]

Only true if all available crew quarters are fully occupied. Do you know that to be true? With overall reduction in staff that Carnival has taken in past years, such as reduced number of cabin stewards, reduction in number of servers, elimination of the band, fewer stage performers, etc, etc, etc, it's most likely that there is room to add staff without converting and passenger rooms.

 

I intended to show the very worst case, where guests would need to pay just 10% more, after rounding up a lot, for crew having one day off/week. It could be even less, indeed.

[AmazedByCruising]

I didn't see any online petitions for a less salty onion soup or to play more disco...

 

OK, I didn't understand that you were referring to the petition instead of how some at CC think about working conditions.

[BNBR]

OK, I didn't understand that you were referring to the petition instead of how some at CC think about working conditions.

 

The working conditions are NOT a problem. And you are hearing it from someone who worked on ships for decades. The crew do NOT want the day off. I think it's actually kind of insulting to people who are happy working there, believe they are doing well, and yet some suburban rich millennial gets a story written about just how awful her experience was and now these men and women are a total charity case.

 

As others said, if thousands and thousands are lining up for these jobs, then there doesn't seem to be a problem. It's not for everyone, it wasn't for her, but that doesn't mean a major problem exists that requires a massive overhaul.

 

The average Filipino FAMILY makes $5,000 USD per year. A cruise ship bartender can make 3X - 4X that. They do not need your charity or concern.

[chengkp75]

Only true if all available crew quarters are fully occupied. Do you know that to be true? With overall reduction in staff that Carnival has taken in past years, such as reduced number of cabin stewards, reduction in number of servers, elimination of the band, fewer stage performers, etc, etc, etc, it's most likely that there is room to add staff without converting and passenger rooms.

 

 

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And every time the reduction in crew is brought up, I ask, "can you document this?" "Can you show this is an actual reduction in crew, or are they transferred to another, back of house, job?".

[chengkp75]

153/4=39 guest cabins need to be converted to crew cabins. That's 80 guests less out of about 2000, so now about 1920 need to pay what 2000 used to do, so that's an extra 5% for the fare.

If https://www.cruisemarketwatch.com/home/financial-breakdown-of-typical-cruiser/ is still more or less accurate, where crew is responsible for just 11% of the total cost, add another 2%.

Now I know that ships could barely sail if their income was fares alone, and the extra crew will not buy art or shorex. To make up for that, and the automatic "gratuities", I'll round up generously to 10%.

 

A $1000 cruise would be a $1100 cruise when all crew gets one day off.

 

I do agree that probably international standards are met. I also agree these jobs are in high demand for a reason. But these people are not on an oil tanker where everyone is poor except for the officers, and those aren't wearing jewelry to show how well to do they are. On a ship I see third world crewmembers working like crazy while they see ridiculously rich people putting what is their monthly salary, maybe even the amount to buy the B&B they have been saving for for the last 2 years, on red in the casino, just for fun. That makes it a tougher job, I think. For me a cruise is just a vacation. I can do with one day less, or a little more fare. If that's what it takes to know all of the crew can spend one day per week doing nothing at all, it would be an easy decision to chose the line that advertises it.

 

Wow, not sure how you come by your perspective of merchant mariners. "Everyone onboard is poor, except the officers?" Are you saying they are "poor" in relation to a cruise passenger, or poor in relation to someone from a European or North American country, or poor in relation to the officers? First off, seafaring jobs, on whatever type of ship, are in demand in countries like Indonesia, Philippines, and India, because the pay is better than shoreside employment for a worker with the same education and skill set. Next, a large percentage of officers on these ships are from the same countries as the crew, or other countries like the former Warsaw Pact countries where wages have been traditionally low. There is not a vast gulf in pay between crew and officers, any more than there is in these countries between non-college and college educated people.

 

And these same nations send guest workers to Middle East and European nations, to do the jobs the citizens don't care to do, and when in the hospitality industry, whether on shore or on a ship, they will see, and serve, people who make many times their income "wasting" it, and you know what, they really don't care. They know that they cannot achieve that kind of wealth, so it really doesn't bother them. People need to work with people from these countries to get to know their life philosophy (though they wouldn't really know that they have one), before making judgements about what is best for them.

 

Now, as to your cost comparison. You are assuming that the crew do not get paid for their day off, which as a previous poster mentioned, is the last thing these folks want, as that is a day away from home without earning anything for it. Or, do you plan on paying those crew on their day off? Then you've just doubled the cost, since those 153 additional workers, covering 47,840 man-days, must be matched by paying 920 workers for 52 days off a year, or again 47,840 man-days of wages. No shipping company pays a mariner for not working. If they take a day off, which is allowed under some collective bargaining agreements, then the person forfeits their pay and overtime.

 

And while you may be okay with paying 10% higher cruise fare (and if you pay for days off, that becomes 20%), how many threads and posts are there here on CC about getting the best deal, and "unfair pricing" and "oh, my, prices are going up" (even though cruising is cheaper today than it was 10 and 20 years ago). And a few numbers to add to your calculations: victualling would go up to feed the additional crew, "onboard other" would go up (uniforms, crew services), and "onboard transporation" would go up to pay transportation for more crew, and what does "other operating cost" include?

 

It's a noble idea, but if you ask 1000 cruise ship crew if they would like a day off each week with no pay, and a psychologist to help with their emotions, I would bet that 980 of them would say, "are you kidding? no thanks". While I consider myself to be fortunate to receive a wage that is above most other nation's mariners, I can say that over the 43 years I've been sailing, a Chief Engineer has made just about the same of his dollars, back 43 years ago, as I make in my dollars today, and his dollars bought a whole lot more than mine (nearly 5 times as much), and yet we who like going to sea continue to do so, as the cruise ship crew who like going to sea continue to do so.

[cb at sea]

If you wish to make more money, get some skills that will allow you to get a better job. "Entry" level jobs are a great training ground for something better down the road.

 

Most of the folks who work on cruise ships are making MUCH better than they would at home. Many of them do this for years and years on end. They pay no rent and have no food costs. It's not a bad deal for an awful lot of people!

[bobandsherry]

And every time the reduction in crew is brought up, I ask, "can you document this?" "Can you show this is an actual reduction in crew, or are they transferred to another, back of house, job?".

Well I don't have paper in hand, but chatting with my room steward he said they increased his number of rooms from 17 to 23. BTW, this is why Carnival has tried to reduce the #of times rooms are serviced and eliminated robes in the rooms. They look to reduce the time spent by room stewards per room and increase the # of rooms to be serviced. And chatting with my wait table staff, they increased their number of tables, plus they eliminated the bar staff from the MDR and now use the wait staff to take the orders. And come on, you haven't noticed the band is gone? Or that the number of entertainers in the shows dropped from 20 to 8? Are you so obviously as to all the changes?

 

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[chengkp75]

Well I don't have paper in hand, but chatting with my room steward he said they increased his number of rooms from 17 to 23. BTW, this is why Carnival has tried to reduce the #of times rooms are serviced and eliminated robes in the rooms. They look to reduce the time spent by room stewards per room and increase the # of rooms to be serviced. And chatting with my wait table staff, they increased their number of tables, plus they eliminated the bar staff from the MDR and now use the wait staff to take the orders. And come on, you haven't noticed the band is gone? Or that the number of entertainers in the shows dropped from 20 to 8? Are you so obviously as to all the changes?

 

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While I don't doubt that the front of house crew numbers have decreased, I for one cannot say, and no one who isn't part of the crew can say, whether or not those jobs were transferred to areas in back of house that were suffering from chronic lack of personnel, and therefore Carnival decided to reallocate resources. I go back to my original question, can you say that those numbers of crew have actually disappeared from the ship, or whether they have been reallocated elsewhere? I'm not saying that it is necessarily true that the jobs have been reallocated, I'm saying that no one knows for sure. Your statement was that crew cabins were empty because of crew cut backs, I'm just saying can you prove that the number of crew has been cut back?

[Elaine5715]

The working conditions are NOT a problem. And you are hearing it from someone who worked on ships for decades. The crew do NOT want the day off. I think it's actually kind of insulting to people who are happy working there, believe they are doing well, and yet some suburban rich millennial gets a story written about just how awful her experience was and now these men and women are a total charity case.

 

As others said, if thousands and thousands are lining up for these jobs, then there doesn't seem to be a problem. It's not for everyone, it wasn't for her, but that doesn't mean a major problem exists that requires a massive overhaul.

 

The average Filipino FAMILY makes $5,000 USD per year. A cruise ship bartender can make 3X - 4X that. They do not need your charity or concern.

The line of thought that "we" know what is best for crew is same as buying them trinkets, the need to see them as children. These same goody two shoes run into an American working 70 plus hours a week in their daily lives and never give it a thought.

[bobandsherry]

While I don't doubt that the front of house crew numbers have decreased, I for one cannot say, and no one who isn't part of the crew can say, whether or not those jobs were transferred to areas in back of house that were suffering from chronic lack of personnel, and therefore Carnival decided to reallocate resources. I go back to my original question, can you say that those numbers of crew have actually disappeared from the ship, or whether they have been reallocated elsewhere? I'm not saying that it is necessarily true that the jobs have been reallocated, I'm saying that no one knows for sure. Your statement was that crew cabins were empty because of crew cut backs, I'm just saying can you prove that the number of crew has been cut back?

Not my mission. Sounds like more in your wheel house, so enjoy the research.

 

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[Joebucks]

I wonder if there is any topic we don't over-analyze, and battle to the death over.

 

I'm courteous to the crew, don't create unnecessary work for them, and leave my tips intact. The last thing the crew/needs and wants is your ideas and opinions. Treat them nicely. They are providing for their families.

[AmazedByCruising]

Wow, not sure how you come by your perspective of merchant mariners. "Everyone onboard is poor, except the officers?" Are you saying they are "poor" in relation to a cruise passenger, or poor in relation to someone from a European or North American country, or poor in relation to the officers?

 

Louis XIV probably considered himself very rich and he wouldn't dream about flying, TV, cinema or internet forums before he died from gangrene. It's always relative, but crew on a cruiseship see the difference daily.

 

People need to work with people from these countries to get to know their life philosophy (though they wouldn't really know that they have one), before making judgements about what is best for them.

 

OK.

 

Now, as to your cost comparison. You are assuming that the crew do not get paid for their day off, which as a previous poster mentioned, is the last thing these folks want, as that is a day away from home without earning anything for it. Or, do you plan on paying those crew on their day off? Then you've just doubled the cost, since those 153 additional workers, covering 47,840 man-days, must be matched by paying 920 workers for 52 days off a year, or again 47,840 man-days of wages.

 

I don't understand the math. The "old" crew stilll gets their 7 day salary like they used to, 153 workers are added, also getting paid 7 days when working 6, for which I already added 2 percent to the fare.

 

And while you may be okay with paying 10% higher cruise fare (and if you pay for days off, that becomes 20%), how many threads and posts are there here on CC about getting the best deal, and "unfair pricing" and "oh, my, prices are going up" (even though cruising is cheaper today than it was 10 and 20 years ago). And a few numbers to add to your calculations: victualling would go up to feed the additional crew, "onboard other" would go up (uniforms, crew services), and "onboard transporation" would go up to pay transportation for more crew, and what does "other operating cost" include?

 

I overlooked some items I guess :) But one shouldn't look at it just at the cost side, IMHO. Even if it was allowed, I wouldn't hire people to work 7 days a week, 6 months in a row.

 

Yes, this site is full of people who are looking for ways to smuggle wine on board, or get upset when the ship's doctor dares to charge money for a consult. IMHO maybe they shouldn't be cruising.

 

There are also many applauding ships for banning straws. Who look for vegan options. And there many threads like this one, where people realize that their vacation can only be so cheap (11% for payroll, for the people who make or break your cruise, and even the TA gets a bigger share!) by hiring people from Third World countries. Or where they are simply perplexed hearing about the working hours from their room steward who hopes to get an extra tip.

 

There's a "clean clothes" thing in Holland, but surely similar happens in the US. "These clothes were not made by children, but in a nice airconditioned factory with decent salaries and working hours". People do pay more for those clothes.

 

The lines brag a lot about environmental issues, but compared to that, working conditions are the pink elephant in the room.

 

It's a noble idea, but if you ask 1000 cruise ship crew if they would like a day off each week with no pay, and a psychologist to help with their emotions, I would bet that 980 of them would say, "are you kidding? no thanks".

 

With pay. Not sure about a professional psychologist, but a lower level "someone to talk to" is part of the Dutch healthcare system and takes away a lot of the burden of the GP.

 

 

While I consider myself to be fortunate to receive a wage that is above most other nation's mariners, I can say that over the 43 years I've been sailing, a Chief Engineer has made just about the same of his dollars, back 43 years ago, as I make in my dollars today, and his dollars bought a whole lot more than mine (nearly 5 times as much), and yet we who like going to sea continue to do so, as the cruise ship crew who like going to sea continue to do so.

 

It's a popular job apparently, with a world wide competition. I can see why :)