Paradise pays staff Aus $4.30/hour, 14 hour days says short-stay Trainee...

[Cafedumonde]

Wow, was the other thread on this removed? Why?

 

I will repost in this thread: I worked similar jobs in my 20s. Coming from England where everything closed early and it was impossible to find a second job or extra work, being able to work around the clock in low wage jobs in the US was a god send. My spouse and I were able to put ourselves through school working a series of low wages jobs around the clock in the US. Just because you hear one sob story, don't forget that many, many people are very appreciative of these jobs where they can make as much money as possible considering their skill set and background. Different people have different levels of tolerance for work. This example is of a person who tried a job, didn't like it, and left. A rather mundane story.

[Mummble]

I worked at a sleep-away kids camp in PA after my freshman year in college, and frankly it sounds very comparable to this article. The pay was terrible, but I got free room and board the whole summer. That 'room' was a cabin of about 12 little girls and all I got was an upper bunk. Sure, I got time off, but it was the idea mentioned earlier of 5-on, 5-off. One full day a week. No wifi, and if we wanted to call anyone it was on our dime (I remember the pre-paid calling cards!). Staff from US, Canada and Isreal mostly.

 

A cruise is a lot like an adult camp. I knew what I was signing up for, but this girl may have been a bit starry-eyed about what the realities are.

 

Jobs like these are at-will. If they don't work for you, that's okay, leave it. If, however, you can see the intangible benefits of working with a diverse group, travelling (in the case of the cruise), having basically zero bills, and really just the wealth of the experience than it may be worth it.

 

This article is only disappointing in the fact that what seems to be a very privileged young woman couldn't endure 6 months of a different experience.

 

All of that said, I do hope that Carnival and all cruise lines take care of their employees mental health and provide resources of some kind to help people through those initial, very tough weeks. Even pairing an experienced crew member (maybe 2 contracts +) with the newbies to mentor and support them could help with homesickness. Knowing others have been through it, and how they got through it can make a difference.

 

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[Elaine5715]

I worked at a sleep-away kids camp in PA after my freshman year in college, and frankly it sounds very comparable to this article. The pay was terrible, but I got free room and board the whole summer. That 'room' was a cabin of about 12 little girls and all I got was an upper bunk. Sure, I got time off, but it was the idea mentioned earlier of 5-on, 5-off. One full day a week. No wifi, and if we wanted to call anyone it was on our dime (I remember the pre-paid calling cards!). Staff from US, Canada and Isreal mostly.

 

A cruise is a lot like an adult camp. I knew what I was signing up for, but this girl may have been a bit starry-eyed about what the realities are.

 

Jobs like these are at-will. If they don't work for you, that's okay, leave it. If, however, you can see the intangible benefits of working with a diverse group, travelling (in the case of the cruise), having basically zero bills, and really just the wealth of the experience than it may be worth it.

 

This article is only disappointing in the fact that what seems to be a very privileged young woman couldn't endure 6 months of a different experience.

 

All of that said, I do hope that Carnival and all cruise lines take care of their employees mental health and provide resources of some kind to help people through those initial, very tough weeks. Even pairing an experienced crew member (maybe 2 contracts +) with the newbies to mentor and support them could help with homesickness. Knowing others have been through it, and how they got through it can make a difference.

 

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There are several books written by past crews including Brian David Bruns (he used to post here occasionally). https://www.cruiseconfidential.com/ It is clear that fellow countrymen reach out to newbies..unless they are jerks..

[snowskier]

Do you think this is unique to cruise lines? Try working for a resort in the U.S.

 

Where I work it is minimum wage, the employee pays approximately $400 / month for employee housing which is a very small shared room with two beds and a tiny bathroom, no food provided by the employer so that is another expense. Long hours, no holidays, weekends off -- it is the tourist industry. Young people coming for the season on J1 visas from South America pay their transportation. Horror of all horrors everyone has to pay for WiFi.

 

I am retired and work part time to keep active so none of this has any affect on me.

 

Once the winter season is over -- a significant number of the young people head to Alaska and spend the summer working for Princess / HAL at the lodges. They pay their own travel expenses. The following winter they come back to the resort.

 

It is a way of life they have decided works for them. I suggest leaving them alone, they don't want to live your life.

[Toofarfromthesea]

From the British media, which erroneously called the ship the "Cruise Paradise," the details are disappointing:

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6089521/Cruise-ship-worker-reveals-really-goes-scenes.html

 

Tens of thousands of third world people covet these jobs, and the press isn't interested. One privileged millennial white girl takes the job and to the press it is HORRORS!!!

 

I bet that she never even gave a second thought about the third-worlder who could have really used that job that she took away in her little slumming exercise.

[Mikew0805]

Sure do not think she is working anywhere close to 14 hours a day though.

 

If crew didnt have satisfactory quality of life would not be so much competition for the jobs not to mention crew members coming back contract after contract. .

 

I don't think satisfactory is anything to brag about. Just my opinion.

[bobandsherry]

I don't think satisfactory is anything to brag about. Just my opinion.

Maybe not to you, but for those working on the ship that's a step up to what they could make back home. People who live is US look at $4.30 as such a lower wage standard. But for most on the ship what they make in a month is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than they would make in their home country.

 

As point of reference, minimum wage in India for person with graduate degree is about 18,000 rupees, that's $257 USD (about $1.50/hr USD if my math is correct). The minimum in India is much lower for unskilled workers.

 

https://paycheck.in/salary/minimumwages/delhi

 

By comparison a room steward makes about $900-1100/USD per month. Plus they have room and board paid for. That's way more left in their pocket while working on the ship vs. working regular job back in their home country.

 

Also, look at reviews on Indeed.com and you may be surprised to see that even room steward job is pretty highly regarded, with many more ratings of 4-5 stars (over 1,000) compared to 1-2 stars (under 100).

 

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Carnival-Cruise-Lines/reviews?fjobtitle=Steward&fcountry=ALL

 

 

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Edited August 27, 2018 by bobandsherry

[BNBR]

Sure do not think she is working anywhere close to 14 hours a day though.

 

If crew didnt have satisfactory quality of life would not be so much competition for the jobs not to mention crew members coming back contract after contract. .

 

They can't work more than 72 hours in a week. So she wasn't averaging 14 hours per day.

[asalligo]

It is irresponsible reporting to talk about the grueling conditions and low pay, but intentionally leave out how much they make in tips or how much more money these employees make in a year contract compared to a year working in their home countries. A room steward told me that just a few years working on the ship might allow him to retire for life in his home country.

 

I would take fourteen hour days seven days a week for five years to retire at twenty five.

[BNBR]

It is irresponsible reporting to talk about the grueling conditions and low pay, but intentionally leave out how much they make in tips or how much more money these employees make in a year contract compared to a year working in their home countries. A room steward told me that just a few years working on the ship might allow him to retire for life in his home country.

 

I would take fourteen hour days seven days a week for five years to retire at twenty five.

 

It's not a bad job for some Americans, either. Someone making $13/hour may not have a penny left over at the end of the month. Cruise ship provides most expenses covered, so they could very well be saving $700+/mo. It's, of course, not for everyone, but lots of people live different lifestyles.

[chengkp75]

They can't work more than 72 hours in a week. So she wasn't averaging 14 hours per day.

 

Actually, under the ILO minimum rest regime (the most common one used by cruise lines) to meet STCW work/rest hour requirements, you can work up to 91 hours in any 7 day period (minimum of 77 rest hours in 7 days). That's 13 hours/day. You are looking at the ILO maximum work regime, which does limit you to 72 hours in 7 days. It is up to the cruise line to determine which ILO regime they wish to use.

[chengkp75]

 

By comparison a room steward makes about $900-1100/USD per month. Plus they have room and board paid for. That's way more left in their pocket while working on the ship vs. working regular job back in their home country.

 

 

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It's not a bad job for some Americans, either. Someone making $13/hour may not have a penny left over at the end of the month. Cruise ship provides most expenses covered, so they could very well be saving $700+/mo. It's, of course, not for everyone, but lots of people live different lifestyles.

 

As I always point out when folks mention that room and board are included for crew, and that saves them so much, that only holds for a single person who can take all of their belongings and dump them at their parents house while onboard. Otherwise, if you rent or own a home, and/or have a family, those expenses for rent/mortgage, utilities, and food for the family continue even when you are on the ship.

[BNBR]

Actually, under the ILO minimum rest regime (the most common one used by cruise lines) to meet STCW work/rest hour requirements, you can work up to 91 hours in any 7 day period (minimum of 77 rest hours in 7 days). That's 13 hours/day. You are looking at the ILO maximum work regime, which does limit you to 72 hours in 7 days. It is up to the cruise line to determine which ILO regime they wish to use.

 

I guess they pick the version that has the longer working hours :)

 

I'm honestly a little perplexed why they even have 2 options.

 

 

1. The limits on hours of work or rest shall be as follows:

• 
  
  • (a) maximum hours of work shall not exceed:
    
    • (i) 14 hours in any 24-hour period; and
      
    • (ii) 72 hours in any seven-day period;
      

or

• (b) minimum hours of rest shall not be less than:
  
  • (i) ten hours in any 24-hour period; and
    
  • (ii) 77 hours in any seven-day period.
    

[BNBR]

As I always point out when folks mention that room and board are included for crew, and that saves them so much, that only holds for a single person who can take all of their belongings and dump them at their parents house while onboard. Otherwise, if you rent or own a home, and/or have a family, those expenses for rent/mortgage, utilities, and food for the family continue even when you are on the ship.

 

I should have clarified that I was referring to someone who would not have those expenses or a family to support. Thinking someone out of school who was living with parents (like the couple of people I know who worked on cruise ships). Obviously, this is in the context of an American working on a ship.

[chengkp75]

I guess they pick the version that has the longer working hours :)

 

I'm honestly a little perplexed why they even have 2 options.

 

 

1. The limits on hours of work or rest shall be as follows:

• 
  
  • (a) maximum hours of work shall not exceed:
    
    • (i) 14 hours in any 24-hour period; and
      
    • (ii) 72 hours in any seven-day period;
      

or

• (b) minimum hours of rest shall not be less than:
  
  • (i) ten hours in any 24-hour period; and
    
  • (ii) 77 hours in any seven-day period.
    

 

The maximum hours of work regime (ILO work) was promulgated in the 2006 original ILO convention. The minimum rest hours (ILO rest) regime was added in 2010 when it was found that in many cases while cargo ship crew worked, due to operational schedules (docking, undocking, cargo operations) far less than the 14 hours per day (12 is most common), that they would almost invariably fail to meet the 72 hours in a week requirement, when the ship had frequent port calls. And, in fact, the 2010 revision to the ILO allows exceptions that allow a crew member to work up to 98 hours per 7 days, under special circumstances.

[Mikew0805]

Maybe not to you, but for those working on the ship that's a step up to what they could make back home. People who live is US look at $4.30 as such a lower wage standard. But for most on the ship what they make in a month is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than they would make in their home country.

 

As point of reference, minimum wage in India for person with graduate degree is about 18,000 rupees, that's $257 USD (about $1.50/hr USD if my math is correct). The minimum in India is much lower for unskilled workers.

 

https://paycheck.in/salary/minimumwages/delhi

 

By comparison a room steward makes about $900-1100/USD per month. Plus they have room and board paid for. That's way more left in their pocket while working on the ship vs. working regular job back in their home country.

 

Also, look at reviews on Indeed.com and you may be surprised to see that even room steward job is pretty highly regarded, with many more ratings of 4-5 stars (over 1,000) compared to 1-2 stars (under 100).

 

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Carnival-Cruise-Lines/reviews?fjobtitle=Steward&fcountry=ALL

 

 

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I was not referring to any of this. I am well aware of all the above as well as some flaws in your calculations. They are paid just fine, as I said before. I am referring to the cruise line... should not be happy with "satisfactory" work environment.

 

FYI - I worked for CCL for 3+ years shoreside and got to know many crew, shipboard HR policies & procedures, and still have very close friends that work at HQ. I am not defending the cruise line, or this particular employee. It is what it is, but I responded to another posted that used the term "Satisfactory."

[Mikew0805]

Oh and I can say this.. I would not be cut out to work any position on board with the exception of dealer in the casino, RN, or the old "BOB." When "booking on board" first came out, there were a few of us from reservations that went on board and worked taking reservations. It was nice, because we were still given our normal 40 hours work schedule. I did that for a few weeks on the Imagination, and met lots of crew. I also got to work at one of the now defunct CVS. (Carnival vacation stores) I worked in the one at the Stonebriar mall in Frisco, Tx. Was basically the same thing as BOB, but I had a better time when I was off when doing BOB.

[chengkp75]

Tried to get back to edit my last, but the satellite dumped me.

 

To clarify, it is the MLC (Maritime Labor Convention) of 2006 that set the maximum work hours requirements. It is the STCW (Standards of Training, Competency, and Watchkeeping) convention of 2010 that added the minimum rest hours, and one of the reasons is that STCW focuses on watchkeeper, who have a fixed 8 or 12 hours per day spent on the bridge or in the engine room, as members of the watch. Then the operational requirements of docking, undocking, bunkering, etc, would add hours to those watch hours, and while they would never reach 14 hours per day, they would go over the 72 hours per week. Also, it is up to the flag state to determine which one or both of the work/rest regimes are allowed (Japan only allows the maximum work regime, for example). And, in the US, there is an additional requirement, for all tankers, whether US or foreign flag, that restricts us to 15 hours work in any 24, but also only 36 hours work in any 72, so effectively a 12 hour/day limit.

[chengkp75]

Just look at the logistics of it. Carnival Paradise, since that is the ship in question, has a crew of 920, relatively small in the industry. Now, those 920 crew provide 335,800 man-days of labor each year. If you give each worker one day off a week, that is 47,840 man-days of work lost each year (14% of total labor). To replace those lost man-days, you would have to employ 153 more crew, since each new crew would also need a day off each week, and would only contribute 312 man-days per year (365 man-days per person x 6/7th's (one day off each week)). So, that's an increase of 16.6% in crew size, and wages. Where do all these additional people sleep, and who pays for the additional crew wages? And that is assuming that all crew are the same, and a "replacement crew" can fill in for more than one job during their time onboard.

 

There really isn't a problem to start with. Those who take a cruise ship job thinking they are working on the Love Boat, should not apply in the first place, those that think they are going on a cruise should not apply in the first place. Those who accept, enjoy, or adapt to a life at sea, with all its limitations (we are the most highly regulated industry for drug and alcohol use) have no problem with the conditions.

[bobandsherry]

Actually, under the ILO minimum rest regime (the most common one used by cruise lines) to meet STCW work/rest hour requirements, you can work up to 91 hours in any 7 day period (minimum of 77 rest hours in 7 days). That's 13 hours/day. You are looking at the ILO maximum work regime, which does limit you to 72 hours in 7 days. It is up to the cruise line to determine which ILO regime they wish to use.

After 70 hours Carnival pays overtime, so wages go up then. [emoji39]

 

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[bobandsherry]

As I always point out when folks mention that room and board are included for crew, and that saves them so much, that only holds for a single person who can take all of their belongings and dump them at their parents house while onboard. Otherwise, if you rent or own a home, and/or have a family, those expenses for rent/mortgage, utilities, and food for the family continue even when you are on the ship.

 

Talk with those who work on board, most already live with parents and/or other family out of necessity. They rarely have the means to own a house. They work on the ship for a period of time to build up savings so they can live better once they retire.

 

We met husband and wife who worked together, the wife's mother watched their two kids. They we're saving and had plans to quit in 10 years, having saved enough to open their own business and support their family.

 

And Carnival also includes a pension, those who stay long enough, and there's a fair number that do, will get a monthly check for life.

 

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[AmazedByCruising]

So, that's an increase of 16.6% in crew size, and wages. Where do all these additional people sleep, and who pays for the additional crew wages?

 

153/4=39 guest cabins need to be converted to crew cabins. That's 80 guests less out of about 2000, so now about 1920 need to pay what 2000 used to do, so that's an extra 5% for the fare.

If https://www.cruisemarketwatch.com/home/financial-breakdown-of-typical-cruiser/ is still more or less accurate, where crew is responsible for just 11% of the total cost, add another 2%.

Now I know that ships could barely sail if their income was fares alone, and the extra crew will not buy art or shorex. To make up for that, and the automatic "gratuities", I'll round up generously to 10%.

 

A $1000 cruise would be a $1100 cruise when all crew gets one day off.

 

I do agree that probably international standards are met. I also agree these jobs are in high demand for a reason. But these people are not on an oil tanker where everyone is poor except for the officers, and those aren't wearing jewelry to show how well to do they are. On a ship I see third world crewmembers working like crazy while they see ridiculously rich people putting what is their monthly salary, maybe even the amount to buy the B&B they have been saving for for the last 2 years, on red in the casino, just for fun. That makes it a tougher job, I think. For me a cruise is just a vacation. I can do with one day less, or a little more fare. If that's what it takes to know all of the crew can spend one day per week doing nothing at all, it would be an easy decision to chose the line that advertises it.

[bobandsherry]

153/4=39 guest cabins need to be converted to crew cabins.

.

Only true if all available crew quarters are fully occupied. Do you know that to be true? With overall reduction in staff that Carnival has taken in past years, such as reduced number of cabin stewards, reduction in number of servers, elimination of the band, fewer stage performers, etc, etc, etc, it's most likely that there is room to add staff without converting and passenger rooms.

 

 

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[Lottacruises]

So worried about what people who VOUNTARILY go to work for Carnival make? Start your own cruise line and pay the workers as much as you want.

[Lottacruises]

Tens of thousands of third world people covet these jobs, and the press isn't interested. One privileged millennial white girl takes the job and to the press it is HORRORS!!!

 

I bet that she never even gave a second thought about the third-worlder who could have really used that job that she took away in her little slumming exercise.

 

 

I didn't read what color she was in the article. Thanks for bringing that up.:rolleyes: