An Apology

[UKCruiseJeff]

3 minutes ago, alexandria said:

 

I'm hesitant to wade in too deep again into this morass, and I don't wish to speak on behalf of Observer, but I suspect the fraud concern mentioned by Observer involves the need for strong internal controls by Silversea to prevent possible fraud by employees. 

 

In my legal career, I had quite a few occasions to handle cases where "trusted" employees took advantage of less than tight financial controls to embezzle funds.  Sometimes it occurred at a time in the employee's life where they were facing their own financial difficulties and saw the theft as a way to resolve them.  An employee with access to customer records and the ability to initiate and process a refund can, without appropriate controls including the requirement of approval of a higher level accounting employee, alter or create a customer purchase record and then send a refund to the employee or to an accomplice of the employee.  Ideally, a company would have one employee actually create the refund and then submit it to an accounting employee who would review the supporting documentation, verify the amounts and destination(s) of the refund, and approve and submit it.  That oversight provides a basic level of protection, but it also adds time and complexity to the process.

 

Every single employee embezzlement case I handled involved a firm without that second layer of financial control.  And even in a small business, the losses can be large.  In one case, a very small local credit union manager altered records of dividends to customers to steal over $500,000 in just two months.  It was only caught when she stepped out of her office to use the restroom and left a "before" and "after" printout on her desk (with penciled entries on the "before" copy showing what entries she was going to make to cover up the theft).  Another employee came in to drop off something on her desk, saw the printouts and reported her suspicions.

 

I obviously have no idea if those types of internal controls are in place during this process, but if they are, that would necessarily result in a significant increase in the amount of time that each refund takes.

 

 

You haven't been too hesitant.   But I'm impressed. 

 

So it's your theory that these delays are caused because the small number (we are told) of people in SS handling refunds need to check on each other to check there is no imbezzlement?   I hate to do an injustice to such a long post - but is that it? 

[alexandria]

40 minutes ago, UKCruiseJeff said:

So it's your theory that these delays are caused because the small number (we are told) of people in SS handling refunds need to check on each other to check there is no imbezzlement?   I hate to do an injustice to such a long post - but is that it? 

 

I believe my post is self-explanatory.  No need to read between the lines. As Theodor Geisel wrote, "I meant what I said and I said what I meant."

[QueSeraSera]

I respect the relevant experience each of you all have, but I'm getting a bit lost.  So, I have a question.  Do you think we are going to get our refunds or not?  I booked a 2021 Mediterranean cruise a few months ago, and am hoping to use an overdue refund to complete payment.  Good strategy or doomed to fail?

[alexandria]

I personally have not seen anything that suggests that those who are entitled to refunds will not receive them.   Silversea has said that refunds are now averaging thirty days from date of cancellation but it is really impossible to know how accurate that is as those who are posting online tend to be those who are unhappy with the time it is taking to receive their refund.  If folks are receiving their refund quickly, they aren't posting about it.

 

Quite a few on the Silversea Passengers Facebook group are posting in a pinned refund topic that they have recently received their refunds, it seems most if not all are reporting that their cruises were cancelled in early to mid-March and refunds took 35-45 days.

[alexandria]

By the way, apologies to Chris, it appears I have played a part in hijacking his apology thread. 

[cruiseej]

13 hours ago, UKCruiseJeff said:

Almost all of these refunds are proecessed via the Visa and Mastercard automated processes.  This is quite easy to understand.  There are two issues - as you state.  The first is that they need to be satisfied that the refund comes from the organisation you believe to be the organisation requesting the refund.  The second is that the organisation can finance the refund.  There are no other issues with respect to the Visa MC systems.  That is my very point. There is no issue from Visa or MC that SS are who they say they are.   It is the financing issue that is the issue.  Not the admin issue fo requesting the refunds. 

 

What I think you're missing is that refunding a cruise is not as simple as refunding a purchase from Amazon, or even an airline flight. Most cruises are paid for in multiple transactions, often across multiple credit cards, and may have credits that need to be unwound. You may have paid a deposit on one credit card, an interim payment (or more) on a different credit card, and final payment on one of those or a third credit card, depending on cash flow and points/perks of your different cards. The cards/payments may be in multiple different names. Each of those must be refunded, in the proper amount, to the appropriate card. You may have had a future credit credit as part of your cruise payment, so that needs to be deducted and restored to being a future credit, with the appropriate expiration date. You may have paid separately for shore excursions which need to be refunded. You may have paid for air or had it included, or paid an air deviation fee, and that needs to be calculated and the air travel cancelled so they are properly credit by the airline. You may have paid for pre- or post-cruise hotels or tours or services, and those need to be cancelled with the hotel and/or tour operator. And since some add-ons may have a non-refundable amount, they need to determine whether you or they are out any such cancellation fees. And in cancelling all these components and payments, they need to calculate what commission is owed to your travel agent, who they are going to pay even though you've cancelled, based on the commissionable base cost of the cruise fare and and add-ons. And they need to document all of the above, so they have accurate records for their internal financial controls as well as any potential disputes.

 

So no, it is not, as you suggested, "a three minute call and a relatively uncomplicated process to calculate and make a refund." Some refunds may be straightforward, and others probably have many components, but I feel certain processing the average cruise cancellation is far more than just a few quick clicks to submit a refund transaction to Visa or Amex.

[UKCruiseJeff]

3 hours ago, cruiseej said:

 

What I think you're missing is that refunding a cruise is not as simple as refunding a purchase from Amazon, or even an airline flight. Most cruises are paid for in multiple transactions, often across multiple credit cards, and may have credits that need to be unwound. You may have paid a deposit on one credit card, an interim payment (or more) on a different credit card, and final payment on one of those or a third credit card, depending on cash flow and points/perks of your different cards. The cards/payments may be in multiple different names. Each of those must be refunded, in the proper amount, to the appropriate card. You may have had a future credit credit as part of your cruise payment, so that needs to be deducted and restored to being a future credit, with the appropriate expiration date. You may have paid separately for shore excursions which need to be refunded. You may have paid for air or had it included, or paid an air deviation fee, and that needs to be calculated and the air travel cancelled so they are properly credit by the airline. You may have paid for pre- or post-cruise hotels or tours or services, and those need to be cancelled with the hotel and/or tour operator. And since some add-ons may have a non-refundable amount, they need to determine whether you or they are out any such cancellation fees. And in cancelling all these components and payments, they need to calculate what commission is owed to your travel agent, who they are going to pay even though you've cancelled, based on the commissionable base cost of the cruise fare and and add-ons. And they need to document all of the above, so they have accurate records for their internal financial controls as well as any potential disputes.

 

So no, it is not, as you suggested, "a three minute call and a relatively uncomplicated process to calculate and make a refund." Some refunds may be straightforward, and others probably have many components, but I feel certain processing the average cruise cancellation is far more than just a few quick clicks to submit a refund transaction to Visa or Amex.

 

 

I agree with all you say. 

 

My quote you highlighted was simply the refund process once the calculation has been made.  The amount to be refunded as you rightly say is more complex than a simple Amazon refund.   However once the amount has been calculated, the Visa / Mastercard system for refunds is identical.

 

Although UK citizens by law are entitled to a refund within 14 days, I think it unreasonable to expect that in these unusual times.  I think that it would be reasonable to expect a 30 day delay or so.  Staff that were handling bookings should now be calculating refunds.  I believe that the calculation of the refund would take less than negotiating the original booking. 

 

I think that 30 days from the time that SS cancels is the right standard and that they are right to stagger cancellations into manageable numbers. The size of these groups of cancellations should IMHO refelct the number that can be handled to produce the 30 day refund standard.  

 

I think that the best policy is always to be direct and consistant and honest with customers and only promise what you will deliver.  I do not believe any customer should have to wait longer than 30 days for a refund. 

 

Safe days all.

Edited April 29, 2020 by UKCruiseJeff

[wren2]

On 4/27/2020 at 11:17 AM, chrism23 said:

I took the cash.  I am booked on a Athens to Venice Cruise in the spring next year.  The 125% cruise credit plus the $1000 credit and the $1000 in on board credits would have been very sweet but you can't use those for cruises already booked.  So we are looking at  other options.  I don't know if the deal they have up apply to 2022 cruises.  All they have up on their site for 2022 are the Galapagos cruises.  Been there.  Best cruise I have done in my life.  One caveat is that you have to be comfortable snorkeling, it makes the whole trip.  So if the current incentive deal which runs to 6/30 is still on the table when the rest of the 2022 schedule comes out I will definitely be booking something.  I definitely will be booking something in any event.  My biggest disappointment about the Cloud expedition ship being cancelled is that I spent a whole year watching TV series based on the outer islands, like Hinterland, and reading novels by folks like Peter May that are set there.  I had a whole list of nooks and crannies to explore.  

 

18 hours ago, UKCruiseJeff said:

 

 

Hi, 

 

I do not wish to argue with you or your source. Some use fudge to make the simple more complex to buy time. 

 

Almost all of these refunds are proecessed via the Visa and Mastercard automated processes.  This is quite easy to understand.  There are two issues - as you state.  The first is that they need to be satisfied that the refund comes from the organisation you believe to be the organisation requesting the refund.  The second is that the organisation can finance the refund.  There are no other issues with respect to the Visa MC systems.  That is my very point. There is no issue from Visa or MC that SS are who they say they are.   It is the financing issue that is the issue.  Not the admin issue fo requesting the refunds. 

 

There is NO limit to the number of refunds per day or month.  We need to use our common sense.  Visa and MC do not limit Amazon to a certain number of "batches" a month.  Once they know the request is from them and then that can finance it, it is automated and they pay instantly in real time.

 

The general issue of fraud is for SS to quickly agree and authroise a refund and for Visa and MC to be satisfied that the refund has come from SS ie isn't a fraid and they have the funds to stand behind the refund.

 

[wren2]

I am a 24 year cruiser with Silversea and when my back to back cruise from Mumbai to Athens was cancelled, I filed for a refund on March 9 and am still waiting. Was told by SS that most Uk transactions are by wire transfer.  This I find hard to believe as credit card payments give more protection and there is cash back at the end of the year.  Then my Mid-May Cruise was cancelled and I decided to take the offer and rebook for mid-July. And yet, when the mid-May cancellation came through, SS are saying refunds in 30-45 days.

[spinnaker2]

I am still waiting for my refund. I contacted my TA to cancel on March 15.

Transaction done on one credit card.

I have been told many things. Each time the date of expected refund moves.

The last time I contacted my TA I was told to be patient and there was nothing more they could do for me.

And so I wait.

[wren2]

My experience like yours has been one of delay.  When I filed on March 9, London office Guest Relations told me I would receive refund in 21 days. Why cannot

they be honest and give a more accurate timeline?  Recently, I was told that most UK transactions in booking cruises are by wire transfer.  This I very much doubt for the reasons given in my earlier posting. I asked if the headquarters finance division was withholding refunds but of course this was not answered.  I love Silversea and their service so I am just hoping there are not underlying financial reasons for the delay in paying refunds.

 

 

[Daveywavey70]

Oh I've missed you Jeff. 🙂

 

[cruiseej]

On 4/29/2020 at 1:07 PM, wren2 said:

When I filed on March 9, London office Guest Relations told me I would receive refund in 21 days. Why cannot

they be honest and give a more accurate timeline?

 

Surely you must recognize that the situation changed considerably from March 9 to what it became a couple weeks later. Dishonesty is one thing, but changing circumstances to something unprecedented and beyond anything companies were equipped to handle is not a matter of dishonesty. 

[wren2]

Perhaps I should have said accuracy. Why not give themselves a margin? And why with the cancellations of the May cruises are SS saying refunds in 30-45 days? I am still waiting for mine at well over 50 days.

[cruiseej]

I'd guess that as of March 9, they had no idea the entire world and their entire company was about to shut down.

There was no manual or playbook for this.

 

I have no idea why they're now saying 30-45 days for new cancellations, unless they feel they've got the hang of things now and that the most recent cancellations will be processed faster than the ones from March and April -- but it sure seems unrealistic based on what's been observed to date. 

[alexandria]

While there are some that have said they still don't have refunds after the 45 day mark, many who previously expressed concern/frustration/impatience about the delay in their refunds have been recently reporting both here and on the Facebook Silversea Passengers group that they have now received their refunds.  Most of those indicate that the refunds arrived 35-45 days after cancellation for cruises cancelled in March.

[machotspur]

Apologies as I've posted this on another thread but I do feel this to be relevant to this thread also.

  

The UK offices of all luxury cruise companies are still quoting 90 days for the refund to be made. This compares to 30-45 days for USA. I have yet to identify why the difference, other than we in the UK are seen as a soft touch. 

 

The two - as yet not refunded - cancellations I have made with Silversea are :-

3rd March (61 days ago)

25th March (39 days ago)

I also have a cancellation with Crystal made by them on 19th March (41 days ago).

 

This is despite my using a very strong, experienced and well connected travel agency. They are unable to achieve any acceleration of these refunds. 

[G2G]

On 4/27/2020 at 3:32 PM, Tothesunset said:

Here in UK I cancelled a cruise (Athens - Dubai 5 Nov 2020) on 21 March. The money hit the card last Friday. 

 

Wow, I'm so impressed. I cancelled a July cruise on 17th March and so far nothing

[Tothesunset]

1 hour ago, G2G said:

 

Wow, I'm so impressed. I cancelled a July cruise on 17th March and so far nothing

I cancelled directly through the SS office. If you used a TA that might explain it.