Florida wins against CDC?

[Hadacareer]

Can anyone explain to me (a Canadian) what (if any) this will have for NCL cruising?

 

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/florida-vs-cdc-cruise-lawsuit-court-rules-in-favor-of-florida-against-conditional-sail-order/?fbclid=IwAR3SSxBSvmFb90vhw7BOxkghZvG6Tdv1q8ZoMZTTNErsGDLcaN05EWjxLQM

[hallux]

There's discussion in this thread posted yesterday that probably covers your questions - 

 

[zerooveride]

The easiest answer is no one really knows. The Court has given the CDC until July 2nd to come back with rules for the resumption of cruising that has articulable science based reasoning.

 

But, most likely this will be appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, which will take time and most likely the COA will probably stay the temporary injunction. But who knows, I doubt anyone really thought the Court would actually issue and injunction. 

 

Remember though that this decision only applies to cruises from Florida ports.

[HuliHuli]

28 minutes ago, zerooveride said:

I doubt anyone really thought the Court would actually issue and injunction. 

Indeed, in earlier discussion of this case when it was filed, numerous posters suggested Florida would fail in its case and many suggested the case would be tossed.  At that time I opined that a precedent setting case that preceded Florida's, which Florida cited in its filing, raised a significant constitutional issue with the Administrative Procedures Act, and indeed Judge Merryday in his ruling raised the potential for CDC's and Congress' actions being an "unconstitutional delegation of legislative power to CDC because the delegation fails to convey any “intelligible principle” to guide CDC’s exercise of authority."  It is quite possible this will not end in the 11th Circuit because of that constitutional principal.

[zerooveride]

4 hours ago, HuliHuli said:

Indeed, in earlier discussion of this case when it was filed, numerous posters suggested Florida would fail in its case and many suggested the case would be tossed.  At that time I opined that a precedent setting case that preceded Florida's, which Florida cited in its filing, raised a significant constitutional issue with the Administrative Procedures Act, and indeed Judge Merryday in his ruling raised the potential for CDC's and Congress' actions being an "unconstitutional delegation of legislative power to CDC because the delegation fails to convey any “intelligible principle” to guide CDC’s exercise of authority."  It is quite possible this will not end in the 11th Circuit because of that constitutional principal.

And it will take a lot of time. More than the expiration of the CSO . . . most likely.

[HuliHuli]

On 6/19/2021 at 8:51 PM, zerooveride said:

And it will take a lot of time. More than the expiration of the CSO . . . most likely.

Indeed, the full litigation of this case could last a year or more, BUT the "CDC is PRELIMINARILY ENJOINED from enforcing against a cruise ship arriving in, within, or departing from a port in Florida the conditional sailing order and the later measures (technical guidelines, manuals, and the like)...on July 18, 2021."  The court ordered the State and CDC to continue mediation, but failing an agreement by the parties, the CSO is gone on that date.

[zerooveride]

2 hours ago, HuliHuli said:

Indeed, the full litigation of this case could last a year or more, BUT the "CDC is PRELIMINARILY ENJOINED from enforcing against a cruise ship arriving in, within, or departing from a port in Florida the conditional sailing order and the later measures (technical guidelines, manuals, and the like)...on July 18, 2021."  The court ordered the State and CDC to continue mediation, but failing an agreement by the parties, the CSO is gone on that date.

A lot of time though, if they appeal to the Circuit Court of Appeals (COA), the COA will stay the preliminary injunction. Every case is different but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

[HuliHuli]

2 minutes ago, zerooveride said:

A lot of time though, if they appeal to the Circuit Court of Appeals (COA), the COA will stay the preliminary injunction. Every case is different but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

I heard a lot of folks say "Florida will lose" and they were wrong.  I'm unconvinced they would "stay the preliminary injunction" given they are generally viewed as the second or third most conservative appellate court in the country.

[Daniel A]

19 hours ago, zerooveride said:

A lot of time though, if they appeal to the Circuit Court of Appeals (COA), the COA will stay the preliminary injunction. Every case is different but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

Florida has already shown irreparable harm in order to get the preliminary injunction.  Wouldn't the CDC need to demonstrate irreparable harm would result if it is not lifted?

[Daniel A]

On 6/21/2021 at 1:37 PM, zerooveride said:

A lot of time though, if they appeal to the Circuit Court of Appeals (COA), the COA will stay the preliminary injunction. Every case is different but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens.

You were right.  

"The ruling called for the order to be lifted on July 18, but on Saturday the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted a motion made by the CDC to put that ruling on hold while appeals are underway.

 

“So we are absolutely going to pursue to get the state removed, either at the full 11th circuit or at the US Supreme Court,” DeSantis said. “I’m confident that we’d win on the merits, at the full 11th circuit and, honestly, I’m confident we’d win at the US Supreme Court.”"

 

Gov. DeSantis ‘disappointed’ by decision to stay ruling to lift CDC no sail order (clickorlando.com)

[HuliHuli]

31 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

You were right.  

"The ruling called for the order to be lifted on July 18, but on Saturday the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted a motion made by the CDC to put that ruling on hold while appeals are underway.

 

“So we are absolutely going to pursue to get the state removed, either at the full 11th circuit or at the US Supreme Court,” DeSantis said. “I’m confident that we’d win on the merits, at the full 11th circuit and, honestly, I’m confident we’d win at the US Supreme Court.”"

 

Gov. DeSantis ‘disappointed’ by decision to stay ruling to lift CDC no sail order (clickorlando.com)

It's not over...

DeSantis has argued "It raises a bigger question. Can you just have one agency and the government without Congress ever passing a law — just basically shutting down an industry?” he said. “Maybe you don’t care about the cruise industry, but next time it might be your industry. Next time, it may affect people that you know or people that depend on this for their livelihood. So, I think it raises a lot of important implications.”

Reminds me of this...

 

[At Sea At Peace]

44 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

“So we are absolutely going to pursue to get the state removed, either at the full 11th circuit or at the US Supreme Court,” DeSantis said. “I’m confident that we’d win on the merits, at the full 11th circuit and, honestly, I’m confident we’d win at the US Supreme Court.”"

 

Gov. DeSantis ‘disappointed’ by decision to stay ruling to lift CDC no sail order (clickorlando.com)

 

"either at the full 11th circuit" appears to be the next step?

 

Per another member post, the possibility of an en banc review (i.e., there were only 3 Judges on the Panel, the en banc review would be the entire 11th circuit).

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by At Sea At Peace

[Karaboudjan]

So is RDS saying that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has no legal authority to prevent and control disease?

[Laszlo]

3 minutes ago, Karaboudjan said:

So is RDS saying that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has no legal authority to prevent and control disease?

Correct, you mean Dr. Ron Lol

Edited July 19, 2021 by Laszlo

[At Sea At Peace]

3 minutes ago, Karaboudjan said:

So is RDS saying that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has no legal authority to prevent and control disease?

 

The court filings cite lack of current science, vaccines, etc. and reliance on the old two 'Princess ships at the original outbreak.  As well, how the current science is applied against other industries.

 

It just brings to discussion of the science behind how a big-box store was and is safe, and yet a privately owned, small business was, regardless of size, cubic feet, air-flow, etc. is and was unsafe.

 

IMO, the CDC does have the regulatory authority.  With such power comes the responsibility to have such based on current data.

 

The CDC website clearly warns of the risk of 15 minutes of exposure in a 24-hour period for transmission.  Yet, such is not applied to airlines, mass transportation, etc., yet such is totally pertinent for cruises.

 

It's just a mess.

 

The hedge funds that have scooped up the most senior cruise line bonds will end up owning the big three after reorganizations.

 

[BermudaBound2014]

10 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

The hedge funds that have scooped up the most senior cruise line bonds will end up owning the big three after reorganizations.

 

 

BINGO! I had hopes that CCL could make it given their resources.

 

"Had" being the operative word. 

 

So depressing.

 

 

[Daniel A]

25 minutes ago, At Sea At Peace said:

IMO, the CDC does have the regulatory authority.  With such power comes the responsibility to have such based on current data.

Where I differ with the CDC is that there must always be some type of oversight when any government bureaucracy does a 'taking' such as shutting down an entire industry crushing the livelihoods of many, many thousands of people.  In essence, the CDC's position is that they are immune from such oversight and review.  That is the very definition of an out of control bureaucracy.  We just can't permit such an action to continue without the need for the CDC to justify their actions to anybody.

[DCGuy64]

5 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

Where I differ with the CDC is that there must always be some type of oversight when any government bureaucracy does a 'taking' such as shutting down an entire industry crushing the livelihoods of many, many thousands of people.  In essence, the CDC's position is that they are immune from such oversight and review.  That is the very definition of an out of control bureaucracy.  We just can't permit such an action to continue without the need for the CDC to justify their actions to anybody.

But it's the government, and we're not allowed to question them, remember? 😂

[Daniel A]

2 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

But it's the government, and we're not allowed to question them, remember? 😂

Oh, that's right - "I'm from the government, I'm here to help..."  😏 

[HuliHuli]

58 minutes ago, Karaboudjan said:

So is RDS saying that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has no legal authority to prevent and control disease?

Not at all.  But they are subject to Congressionally imposed limitations on their powers, and some recent case law suggests they are acting way outside those limitations.  It is not a health argument, but rather a very specific legal question.

[twentyknots]

https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida/2021/07/18/appeals-court-sides-with-cdc-norwegian-cruise-lines-over-desantis-on-vaccination-rules/

[zerooveride]

I would say that this case is a long ways away from being over and by the time it gets to the Supreme Court, the CSO will probably be expired and will make the case moot. 

[Daniel A]

Has anybody heard boo from the two judges who stayed the injunction?  They said opinions to follow.  If they had a literally last minute opinion last Saturday night, they should have been able to articulate their decision in a day or two.  It is looking like a decision in search of a rationale.

[Turtles06]

2 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Has anybody heard boo from the two judges who stayed the injunction?  They said opinions to follow.  If they had a literally last minute opinion last Saturday night, they should have been able to articulate their decision in a day or two.  It is looking like a decision in search of a rationale.

For all anyone knows, they are waiting on the dissent.

[Daniel A]

49 minutes ago, Turtles06 said:

For all anyone knows, they are waiting on the dissent.

That is possible too.