CDC Issues The New Guidance for Cruise Ships on the Mitigation and Management of COVID-19

[smokeybandit]

A cruise line's best bet is to incentivize a pre-cruise negative test result somehow. Either via a perk onboard or with some CWC protection that those not presenting a negative test wouldn't get.

[topnole]

23 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

A cruise line's best bet is to incentivize a pre-cruise negative test result somehow. Either via a perk onboard or with some CWC protection that those not presenting a negative test wouldn't get.

That is a good idea.  The implementation part is the hard part, but it seems doable.  But reality suggests it is all or nothing.  If the competition goes test free they probably will too.  

[smokeybandit]

3 minutes ago, topnole said:

That is a good idea.  The implementation part is the hard part, but it seems doable.  But reality suggests it is all or nothing.  If the competition goes test free they probably will too.  

Right, I'm saying you go test free, but if you do happen to show up with a negative test, you get rewarded for it.

[rudeney]

30 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

A cruise line's best bet is to incentivize a pre-cruise negative test result somehow. Either via a perk onboard or with some CWC protection that those not presenting a negative test wouldn't get.

 

Yeah like they "woulda, shoulda, coulda" incentivized showing up for the muster drill on time! 😜

[smokeybandit]

1 minute ago, rudeney said:

 

Yeah like they "woulda, shoulda, coulda" incentivized showing up for the muster drill on time! 😜

True. I'm still waiting for my OBC from my Adventure cruise last July that they said they'd give to offset the Bahamas Health Visa cost.

[happy cruzer]

16 hours ago, Rick-n-Lisa said:

Condemn me if you must but at least testing prevents those with Covid knowingly going on a cruise and exposing a couple thousand people “because it’s my vacation”.  There are some people that have no consideration for others if it inconveniences them. Although I do believe that is the exception not the rule.
 

A cruiser can catch Covid 2 minutes after the test and take it on the cruise and infect "a couple thousand" in your opinion.

 

You judge pretty harshly about motives, who is doing the condemning??

 

Mandated testing will end.  Treatments and other protocols will take the place.  We will have to find a practical middle ground for cruising to continue to evolve.

[Rusty_lock]

45 minutes ago, topnole said:

Almost all people who don’t think testing is needed (add to this those who prefer to forgo vaccination) don’t believe it is a “hoax”.  That is a false argument and honestly I don’t even know if you know what that means.    That terminology is a made up media narrative and it really reduces the strength of any argument one is making.  
 

It is very reasonable to believe testing should be dropped, but still understand quite well the impacts of Covid on varying elements of society and life in general.  It is also very reasonable to be young and healthy and decide that after getting and going through Covid (before vaccinations were even possible for example or after) that a vaccine is pointless for long term protection. 
 

Few if any studies have looked at T cell memory and those studies will be what gives us the true story on full immune system protection.  Given the current vaccines don’t stop infection, they need a much better grasp on how prior infection (including which strain), vaccination, as well as the interactions of these two variables (by temporal order).  As it stands now, theory (which has driven almost all guidelines until now and then the data follows) suggests prior infection should be just as good as vaccination to create T cell memory.  For example, they recently tested a 100 year old women’s T cells who survived the 1918 flu as a baby and she still had T cell memory.  
 

All the immunity testing they have been doing so far (ex. Vaccines give protection for 90-180 days) is in antibodies only.  That is only one aspect of our immune system.  Those are the tests they have been doing because they are easy and inexpensive.  Testing for T cell memory is very expensive relative to antibodies.  Doing it on 1000s of subjects is cost prohibitive.  But now the metrics for even vaccines is reduced severity.  So they need a much better grasp of how prior infection impacts T cell response, which is one of the big immune system components that kicks in and generates antibodies to beat the virus.  They also need a better understanding of how T cell response is impacted by vaccines.  Which one is more robust?   Is one better or worse.  Does having both even matter?   All of this should make a big difference in need for boosters, etc.   

 

So if we are truly wanting to follow the science (which is another ridiculous statement) we need data on T cell memory too.  Vaccines that don’t prevent infection may have zero value to anyone who has T cell memory from original vaccination or prior infection.  We need data on this to provide guidance and create policy.  Otherwise we are just spitting in the wind and guessing (as we have been doing all this time already as proven by the constant changes in guidance).  We have never been following the science.  We have been chasing the science (data) and have obviously always been several steps behind.  Those in charge never should have talked beyond their data results in hand (which you learn in the first semester of graduate school). Instead they should’ve been much more careful to hedge their suggestions as best scientific guesses based on the behavior of prior viruses.  If they had done that, they would still have the trust of the people.  

 

I say all of this being vaccinated and if I had a vote I would still prefer pre cruise testing.  Why?   Because I know it catches a least some of the cases which reduces the number of passengers that get it onboard (ie. It ruins less peoples vacation).  But it is very expensive and if they drop it I’m ok with that too.  

Wow, absolutely brilliant.  I wish I could do more than just like this post.

[latserrof]

On 7/21/2022 at 8:02 AM, Ourusualbeach said:

What VV and Azamara do is really irrelevant to what Royal, Carnival and NCL do.

Won't the big three be watching to see how VV and Azamara fare Covid-wise without testing?

[rudeney]

49 minutes ago, topnole said:

Almost all people who don’t think testing is needed (add to this those who prefer to forgo vaccination) don’t believe it is a “hoax”.  That is a false argument and honestly I don’t even know if you know what that means.    That terminology is a made up media narrative and it really reduces the strength of any argument one is making.  
 

It is very reasonable to believe testing should be dropped, but still understand quite well the impacts of Covid on varying elements of society and life in general.  It is also very reasonable to be young and healthy and decide that after getting and going through Covid (before vaccinations were even possible for example or after) that a vaccine is pointless for long term protection. 
 

Few if any studies have looked at T cell memory and those studies will be what gives us the true story on full immune system protection.  Given the current vaccines don’t stop infection, they need a much better grasp on how prior infection (including which strain), vaccination, as well as the interactions of these two variables (by temporal order).  As it stands now, theory (which has driven almost all guidelines until now and then the data follows) suggests prior infection should be just as good as vaccination to create T cell memory.  For example, they recently tested a 100 year old women’s T cells who survived the 1918 flu as a baby and she still had T cell memory.  
 

All the immunity testing they have been doing so far (ex. Vaccines give protection for 90-180 days) is in antibodies only.  That is only one aspect of our immune system.  Those are the tests they have been doing because they are easy and inexpensive.  Testing for T cell memory is very expensive relative to antibodies.  Doing it on 1000s of subjects is cost prohibitive.  But now the metrics for even vaccines is reduced severity.  So they need a much better grasp of how prior infection impacts T cell response, which is one of the big immune system components that kicks in and generates antibodies to beat the virus.  They also need a better understanding of how T cell response is impacted by vaccines.  Which one is more robust?   Is one better or worse.  Does having both even matter?   All of this should make a big difference in need for boosters, etc.   

 

So if we are truly wanting to follow the science (which is another ridiculous statement) we need data on T cell memory too.  Vaccines that don’t prevent infection may have zero value to anyone who has T cell memory from original vaccination or prior infection.  We need data on this to provide guidance and create policy.  Otherwise we are just spitting in the wind and guessing (as we have been doing all this time already as proven by the constant changes in guidance).  We have never been following the science.  We have been chasing the science (data) and have obviously always been several steps behind.  Those in charge never should have talked beyond their data results in hand (which you learn in the first semester of graduate school). Instead they should’ve been much more careful to hedge their suggestions as best scientific guesses based on the behavior of prior viruses.  If they had done that, they would still have the trust of the people.  

 

I say all of this being vaccinated and if I had a vote I would still prefer pre cruise testing.  Why?   Because I know it catches a least some of the cases which reduces the number of passengers that get it onboard (ie. It ruins less peoples vacation).  But it is very expensive and if they drop it I’m ok with that too.  

 

I totally agree.  I think part of the reason people are so "over" COVID is because of all the omni-directional knee-jerking done by our leaders and "experts" since this started.  I know we had a lot to learn in the beginning, but we have so much data now, there are no excuses for the continued ambiguous things that the CDC, local governments and even some private business are doing "because...COVID".

 

[topnole]

29 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

Right, I'm saying you go test free, but if you do happen to show up with a negative test, you get rewarded for it.

Yeah.  I like the idea.  
 

The only issue is folks manufacturing fake results to get full refunds at the last minute.  I’m sure that isn’t hard to do and the cruise lines know it.  Pros and cons to any policy I’m sure.  

[smokeybandit]

5 minutes ago, topnole said:

Yeah.  I like the idea.  
 

The only issue is folks manufacturing fake results to get full refunds at the last minute.  I’m sure that isn’t hard to do and the cruise lines know it.  Pros and cons to any policy I’m sure.  

 

Agreed. The same ones working around protocols now (I honestly don't think it's that many) would do the same with any new policy, too.

[FamilyCruiserUK]

6 minutes ago, rudeney said:

 

I totally agree.  I think part of the reason people are so "over" COVID is because of all the omni-directional knee-jerking done by our leaders and "experts" since this started.  I know we had a lot to learn in the beginning, but we have so much data now, there are no excuses for the continued ambiguous things that the CDC, local governments and even some private business are doing "because...COVID".

 

Like anything new, knee jerking is nothing new or uncommon. When you don't fully understand something you will always makes "best judgment" calls at that time. Hindsight will prove if those calls were correct or not. 

 

Also like everything in life its all about costs, Costs to the economy, costs to business, costs to people, cost to hospitals which is not solely measured in a financial manner. 

 

ATM royal ask you to test and will pay for onboard and further covid treatment, isolation and compensation.

 

If they get rid of testing who would then foot the bill of onboard treatment and possible further isolation, post cruise etc? 

 

Its a fine balance in trying to do what has the least impact on your business (People off sick, Lockdowns etc)  and the people who use your services.

 

I would like to see testing end, but at the same time i like the RCL CWC peace of mind if i do contract covid onboard. Massive head scratcher for all policy makers.

[smokeybandit]

1 minute ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

If they get rid of testing who would then foot the bill of onboard treatment and possible further isolation, post cruise etc? 

 

The passenger, just like it is now for every other trip to medical that isn't an onboard accident.

[Ourusualbeach]

28 minutes ago, latserrof said:

Won't the big three be watching to see how VV and Azamara fare Covid-wise without testing?

The big 3 will make their decisions well before any of those lines start sailing under the new protocols

[molly361]

1 minute ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The big 3 will make their decisions well before any of those lines start sailing under the new protocols

Today would be nice ☺️

[topnole]

7 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

 

Agreed. The same ones working around protocols now (I honestly don't think it's that many) would do the same with any new policy, too.

No doubt it is a small percentage.  I’ve read many comments on CC that implicitly suggest they cheat the Covid testing system to make sure they cruise either way.  And I’m sure it is being done now for refunds too.  

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, topnole said:

And I’m sure it is being done now for refunds too.  

I hadn’t given this much thought but it occurs to me the cruise lines may welcome the end to testing so they can end their Covid policies where they need to compensate people with a positive Covid test.  I am sure they don’t like that but if you deny people boarding because of a test it is on you.  Live by the sword, die by the sword. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Mary229

[FamilyCruiserUK]

9 minutes ago, smokeybandit said:

 

The passenger, just like it is now for every other trip to medical that isn't an onboard accident.

Exactly, ££££££££   so is testing such a bad thing...................? Its an interesting conundrum  😬

 

 

[topnole]

9 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I hadn’t given this much thought but it occurs to me the cruise lines may welcome the end to testing so they can end their Covid policies where they need to compensate people with a positive Covid test.  I am sure they don’t like that but if you deny people boarding because of a test it is on you.  Live by the sword, die by the sword. 

No doubt.  These decisions are about $, not health and safety.  That is mostly window dressing.  

[smokeybandit]

3 minutes ago, topnole said:

No doubt.  These decisions are about $, not health and safety.  That is mostly window dressing.  

I'd love to know the bill for how much was spent on covid-related activities for quarantine reimbursements, medivac flights, pro-rated and full covid-related refunds, etc, etc. Gotta be in the millions.

[Rusty_lock]

24 minutes ago, Ourusualbeach said:

The big 3 will make their decisions well before any of those lines start sailing under the new protocols

 

22 minutes ago, molly361 said:

Today would be nice ☺️

My prediction is that the announcements start being released after the closing bell in NY.  I'll be scanning the wire at 4:05 EDT 🙂 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Rusty_lock

[Mary229]

let’s be clear, this is a business, it is always about the money 
 

Another cost they need to weigh in the balance are pre-cruise Covid tests.  Many insurance companies are now allowed and are no longer covering those tests.  My pharmacy was billing my insurance company $250 for an antigen test.  
 

Ok, I know you can do the online version cheaper but not everyone boarding a ship knows that.  I would guess more than half don’t know that (people who cruise rarely or the first time).   So how are their customers going to react when a family of 4 may have to spend hundreds more for Covid testing.  Maybe they will spend it but that will come out of their budget. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Mary229

[FamilyCruiserUK]

16 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

let’s be clear, this is a business, it is always about the money 
 

Another cost they need to weigh in the balance are pre-cruise Covid tests.  Many insurance companies are now allowed and are no longer covering those tests.  My pharmacy was billing my insurance company $250 for an antigen test.  
 

Ok, I know you can do the online version cheaper but not everyone boarding a ship knows that.  I would guess more than half don’t know that (people who cruise rarely or the first time).   So how are their customers going to react when a family of 4 may have to spend hundreds more for Covid testing.  Maybe they will spend it but that will come out of their budget. 

Wow are tests that expensive in the US? Here in the UK for a in person antigen test, we are looking at £30 (36USD) per person. A PCR test is more expensive around £40+ (48USD) via DAM Health.

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, FamilyCruiserUK said:

Wow are tests that expensive in the US? Here in the UK for a in person antigen test, we are looking at £30 (36USD) per person. A PCR test is more expensive around £40+ (48USD) via DAM Health.

If you are cruise savvy you know you can get it done far cheaper but most don’t come to this forum

[The Scurvy Pirate]

16 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

.....  but most don’t come to this forum

 Thank heavens.... Could you imagine how many tipping, smoking in the casino, is ____ worth it comments there would be then? 😄

Edited July 22, 2022 by The Scurvy Pirate