How Many Understaffed HAL Ships Have You Sailed On

[mcrcruiser]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I saw the Discovery in Australia. At first someone said that it was the old "Love Boat," but then we were corrected. 

 

Those "old girls" were built to last. Discovery made it to 44, Love Boat to 41. The France (later Norway) sailed for 41 years. QE2 almost made it to 40. But now so many people want to sail on the newest ships with the most bells and whistles that people look at a ship built 20 years ago as "too old." 

Actually the oldest ships modernized  for todays way  of    cruising is the  old  SS United States ; which, the hull was built to do 40 knot speeds . I believe she was made to be a all suite ship  in today s market  .she was introduced in the 1950s

Here is some info :https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/ss-united-states/index.html

Edited February 13, 2023 by mcrcruiser

[*Miss G*]

32 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

How loud will it get on HAL ships?

 

Hopefully not as loud as Disney, Carnival, and Princess.  🙃

[OlsSalt]

HAL needs to decide if they want to be a cruise line for global travelers and concentrate on unique itineraries and the more in depth travel experience. Or, compete with the larger mass market cruise lines for the more current on board entertainment, routine bus trip model.  

 

HAL is now trying to do both, and the newer addition of only larger ships with more onboard entertainment model of cruising, is making the current line and its brand schizophrenic.  

 

There is an inherent problem when at a recent critical juncture CCL let the HAL division get run by someone who had never even been on a cruise ship before. At which time it appears many of these floundering new decisions were made. Remains to be seen what "roots" HAL will return too under new (old) management.  

 

Even the new onboard production documentary "150 Years of Holland America" was confused and left no appealing branding message.  

 

New builds of smaller ships for the old HAL model are probably not feasible, but selling off many of her venerable old global-traveling grand ladies forecloses the old HAL model as well.  

 

Poor HAL.... alas, I knew her well.

[mcrcruiser]

36 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

Hopefully not as loud as Disney, Carnival, and Princess.  🙃

you can add RCL huge ships to that list

[*Miss G*]

1 minute ago, OlsSalt said:

HAL is now trying to do both, and the newer addition of only larger ships with more onboard entertainment model of cruising, is making the current line and its brand schizophrenic.  

 

This is where I would disagree.  I love the new Pinnacle-class ships (my first choice) but also can appreciate the more classic cruising style of the older ships.  I don’t believe it should be one or the other.  There is room for both.

[OlsSalt]

Right now I can no longer generally recommend taking a "HAL cruise", without also having to caution specifically which HAL ships I would be recommending for my own favored type of cruise experience.  

 

For me that would mean only recommending HAL Vista ships and smaller, with maybe the exception of the Nieuw Amsterdam depending on the itinerary. 

[*Miss G*]

2 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

Right now I can no longer generally recommend taking a "HAL cruise", without also having to caution specifically which HAL ships I would be recommending for my own favored type of cruise experience.  

 

 

I would absolutely agree with you in this regard, however I would base my recommendation on what the new-to-HAL cruiser is looking for vs my personal preference.

[mcrcruiser]

4 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

HAL needs to decide if they want to be a cruise line for global travelers and concentrate on unique itineraries and the more in depth travel experience. Or, compete with the larger mass market cruise lines for the more current on board entertainment, routine bus trip model.  

 

HAL is now trying to do both, and the newer addition of only larger ships with more onboard entertainment model of cruising, is making the current line and its brand schizophrenic.  

 

There is an inherent problem when at a recent critical juncture CCL let the HAL division get run by someone who had never even been on a cruise ship before. At which time it appears many of these floundering new decisions were made. Remains to be seen what "roots" HAL will return too under new (old) management.  

 

Even the new onboard production documentary "150 Years of Holland America" was confused and left no appealing branding message.  

 

New builds of smaller ships for the old HAL model are probably not feasible, but selling off many of her venerable old global-traveling grand ladies forecloses the old HAL model as well.  

 

Poor HAL.... alas, I knew her well.

 Change is in the air . CCL needs more revenue to pay the interest   on that huge debt they carry . Interest rates are going up more to  bring inflation in line  causing more pain for CCL ,RCL & NCHL  . In fact any corporation with high debt on their books will suffer  . Now how does CCL handle this debt servicing  ? They have to raise prices to not only pay the interest but to reduce the debt simultaneously  . In addition  they need to cut waste & maximize use of their  labor  force .This is reality because to not do this means BK 

[OlsSalt]

3 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

 Change is in the air . CCL needs more revenue to pay the interest   on that huge debt they carry . Interest rates are going up more to  bring inflation in line  causing more pain for CCL ,RCL & NCHL  . In fact any corporation with high debt on their books will suffer  . Now how does CCL handle this debt servicing  ? They have to raise prices to not only pay the interest but to reduce the debt simultaneously  . In addition  they need to cut waste & maximize use of their  labor  force .This is reality because to not do this means BK 

 

Losing a unique market share is also the road to BK.

 

Not clear how Big Hal competes with the other Big Cruise Lines; because it certainly cannot sustainable attract the Old Hal customers.  Best case scenario is New HAL can carry the bulk of the current debt,  which allows Old Hal to keep its loyal customer base.

 

But I recognize this is more selfish wishful thinking on my part than a sound business plan after this two year massive set-back to cruise ship operations.  Shall be interesting to see what model survives this rather arbitrary forced interregnum. 

[gilboman]

6 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

Right now I can no longer generally recommend taking a "HAL cruise", without also having to caution specifically which HAL ships I would be recommending for my own favored type of cruise experience.  

 

For me that would mean only recommending HAL Vista ships and smaller, with maybe the exception of the Nieuw Amsterdam depending on the itinerary. 

Having sailed konigsdam and zaandam in 2022, our preference is pinnacle class by far.

 

But we are young(er) and usually do celebrity and princess, maybe HAL like viking is trying to get younger people as that's where the money is these days just like how Vegas and other places/hotels have pivoted?

[KAKcruiser]

I would be interested in knowing the percentage of free cruisers onboard.  I understand that that the casino company reimburses HAL for their free cabins but I bet it's at a big discount since CCL owns them.  But, there are other free cruises being offered to people who have never set foot in the casino.  There is speculation that maybe it was because of spa usage or generally high spending but nobody knows.  Who is paying for those cabins?  I'm sure HAL is hoping these people will spend a lot onboard but it does add to the need for more staff.   

[OlsSalt]

12 hours ago, gilboman said:

Having sailed konigsdam and zaandam in 2022, our preference is pinnacle class by far.

 

But we are young(er) and usually do celebrity and princess, maybe HAL like viking is trying to get younger people as that's where the money is these days just like how Vegas and other places/hotels have pivoted?

 

Next question, as a younger cruiser, why would you pick a HAL ship over any of the other mainstream brands? What keeps the larger HAL  ships unique enough to create brand loyalty. What X-factors make HAL a re-booking choice, by brand alone.

 

Recently on the Konigsdam, and did not feel that same HAL feeling nor understand why it would now stand out among the newer competition.  It was just a generic  big, busy, noisy ship in our own  HAL brand loyalty experience. (Itinerary-price-intimacy of size-onboard ambiance)

 

For us, it was easy to feel brand uniqueness in HAL's smaller, older ships, since no one else was offering the same range of itineraries and value for the same prices, and we did fall in love with the warm, welcoming HAL special service touches that we got for the price -that was our sweet spot.

 

But it is not something the larger, newer HAL ships still offer us. Being on board felt more like "work" than a comfortable cocoon.

 

So I am curious, what is it about the new HAL ships experiences that now creates a brand loyalty among younger passengers?

[*Miss G*]

23 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Next question, as a younger cruiser, why would you pick a HAL ship over any of the other mainstream brands? What keeps the larger HAL  ships unique enough to create brand loyalty. What X-factors make HAL a re-booking choice, by brand alone.

 

Recently on the Konigsdam, and did not feel that same HAL feeling nor understand why it would now stand out among the newer competition.  It was just a generic  big, busy, noisy ship in our own  HAL brand loyalty experience. (Itinerary-price-intimacy of size-onboard ambiance)

 

For us, it was easy to feel brand uniqueness in HAL's smaller, older ships, since no one else was offering the same range of itineraries and value for the same prices, and we did fall in love with the warm, welcoming HAL special service touches that we got for the price -that was our sweet spot.

 

But it is not something the larger, newer HAL ships still offer us. Being on board felt more like "work" than a comfortable cocoon.

 

So I am curious, what is it about the new HAL ships experiences that now creates a brand loyalty among younger passengers?

 

For me, the Pinnacle ships feel light and modern whereas the older ships are dark and ornate…. Like something you’d see in an ancient history museum.

 

Bathrooms:  The Pinnacle ships have beautiful glass walk-in showers and natural stone interiors making them lighter and brighter.  The older ships have plastic rose- or flesh-colored tubs, walls, and counters with cling-on shower curtains and are much darker and closed in.

 

The Pinnacle ships have the Club Orange dining room.  The older ships do not.

 

The Pinnacle ships have Music Walk.  The older ships do not.

 

It’s kind of like the difference between going to your Grandma’s house (stable, solid, and a warm hug) and going to your best friend’s house (fun, light, and energetic).

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by *Miss G*

[OlsSalt]

7 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

For me, the Pinnacle ships feel light and modern whereas the older ships are dark and ornate…. Like something you’d see in an ancient history museum.

 

Bathrooms:  The Pinnacle ships have beautiful glass walk-in showers and natural stone interiors making them lighter and brighter.  The older ships have rose or flesh-colored tubs, walls, and counters with cling-on shower curtains and are much darker and closed in.

 

The Pinnacle ships have the Club Orange dining room.  The older ships do not.

 

The Pinnacle ships have Music Walk.  The older ships do not.

 

It’s kind of like the difference between going to your Grandma’s house (stable, solid, and a warm hug) and going to your best friend’s house (fun, light, and energetic).

 

 

Let me restate that - not why does one pick a newer HAL ship over an older HAL ship. You points are well taken and  understood - within the HAL brand itself.

 

But why pick a HAL newer ship over other the competing brands at similar price points and itinerary offerings, which are now limited by the sheer size of newer ship - Celebrity, Princess, etc... or even the larger cruise ships with high-level onboard entertainment.

 

What is it about the new larger HAL ships that will generate brand loyalty ,like they did with their smaller, older ships which had little competition.

[AFNavigator]

8 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

For me, the Pinnacle ships feel light and modern whereas the older ships are dark and ornate…. Like something you’d see in an ancient history museum.

 

Bathrooms:  The Pinnacle ships have beautiful glass walk-in showers and natural stone interiors making them lighter and brighter.  The older ships have rose or flesh-colored tubs, walls, and counters with cling-on shower curtains and are much darker and closed in.

 

The Pinnacle ships have the Club Orange dining room.  The older ships do not.

 

The Pinnacle ships have Music Walk.  The older ships do not.

 

It’s kind of like the difference between going to your Grandma’s house (stable, solid, and a warm hug) and going to your best friend’s house (fun, light, and energetic).

 

An expensive drydock can fix most of those issues (space permitting), but the key word is expensive!   Pre-COVID, Carnival extensively refit 3 or 4 of their older ships to the tune of over $200M each with the changes being significant enough to justify renaming those ships.

[*Miss G*]

15 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Let me restate that - not why does one pick a newer HAL ship over an older HAL ship. You points are well taken and  understood - within the HAL brand itself.

 

But why pick a HAL newer ship over other the competing brands at similar price points and itinerary offerings, which are now limited by the sheer size of newer ship - Celebrity, Princess, etc... or even the larger cruise ships with high-level onboard entertainment.

 

What is it about the new larger HAL ships that will generate brand loyalty ,like they did with their smaller, older ships which had little competition.

 

Ah.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  For me it’s the fact that I don’t have to pay a premium to have forward-facing public areas or give up full proms which encompass the entire ship as opposed to having about 1/3 of the prom available to walk then having to make your way through the interior to get to the other side.  There is no forward or aft prom on the newer competitor ships!  

 

Other brands have gone out of their way to make their newer ships inward-facing whilst HAL still focuses on the sea no matter where you go on the ship (and without paying the premium required by other lines for that same access).

 

Oh!  And I also like the fact that HAL doesn’t blast loud music or movies at me (or other ships in port) during the day on the Lido big screens!!

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by *Miss G*

[OlsSalt]

13 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

 

Ah.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  For me it’s the fact that I don’t have to pay a premium to have forward-facing public areas or give up full proms which encompass the entire ship as opposed to having about 1/3 of the prom available to walk then having to make your way through the interior to get to the other side.  There is no forward or aft prom on the newer competitor ships!  

 

Other brands have gone out of their way to make their newer ships inward-facing whilst HAL still focuses on the sea no matter where you go on the ship (and without paying the premium required by other lines for that same access).

 

Oh!  And I also like the fact that HAL doesn’t blast loud music or movies at me (or other ships in port) during the day on the Lido big screens!!

 

 

Good points, glad they got noticed because we oldsters do cling to them too: full 360 promenade and windows and orientation facing out to the sea. Keeping the feeling of being on a ship; not a floating hotel.

 

To show how hidebound traditionalist I still am about the older HAL ships,  I missed hearing the  at-sea engine noises and vibrations on the Konigsdam - too quiet or too noisy (piped in music drowning out the sea) - so I felt I was insulated  too much from being on ship at sea.

 

Of course, this requires one to overlook my complaints about the former Maasdam when it was forced to go over 21 knots and hour, and glasses rattled off the tables and the bed felt like endless quarters had been stuffed into the Magic Fingers motel bed systems of yore..

[3rdGenCunarder]

41 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Good points, glad they got noticed because we oldsters do cling to them too: full 360 promenade and windows and orientation facing out to the sea. Keeping the feeling of being on a ship; not a floating hotel.

 

To show how hidebound traditionalist I still am about the older HAL ships,  I missed hearing the  at-sea engine noises and vibrations on the Konigsdam - too quiet or too noisy (piped in music drowning out the sea) - so I felt I was insulated  too much from being on ship at sea.

 

Of course, this requires one to overlook my complaints about the former Maasdam when it was forced to go over 21 knots and hour, and glasses rattled off the tables and the bed felt like endless quarters had been stuffed into the Magic Fingers motel bed systems of yore..

 

Ahh, you stirred up fond memories of QE2. When she cranked up the engines, accelerating out of port,  the vibrations at the stern made all the glass tchotchkes in the aft shops play a jingling tune. And when the vibrations hit just the right frequency, resonance would make one of the sets of elevators (E, I think) shake. 

 

If you ever get a chance to sail on QM2, stand in the lower hallway aft of the atrium. You can feel the thrum of the engines. It's the only spot that reminds you that you are on a magnificent machine. 

 

I guess for me, HAL is a combination of the comfort of Grandma's house and the joy of being at sea.

 

I like HAL's Vistas best, although they do lack Tamarind. I'm not sure what it is, but I just like the layout and feel of the  ship. I had the same feeling about Cunard's Vista, Queen Elizabeth. 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, OlsSalt said:

What is it about the new larger HAL ships that will generate brand loyalty ,like they did with their smaller, older ships which had little competition.

 

HAL itineraries. Main and pretty much only reason.

 

I sail on several lines, not just HAL. The main reason that I return to HAL is for the itineraries. I like smaller ships but I also like modern ships. The Pinnacle class remind me quite a bit of Celebrity's Solstice class, which I think are some of the prettiest ships at sea. But then I've always appreciated the lighter, less cluttered more Scandinavian look to the heavy "old-world European" look on many of HAL's older ships.

 

Why does one have to have "brand loyalty"?  Isn't it enough that HAL is in the equation?

 

[AKJonesy]

To the OP, I do believe my last voyage which was on Zuiderdam San Diego to FLL was understaffed.  I was a little annoyed but then changed my strategy on board and avoided the LIDO for the busiest hour at lunch when staffing seemed pretty lean and tables were not cleared.  We missed several ports due to emergencies so that added to our sea days.  This time I booked a port heavy cruise and probably won't worry about any understaffing.  I don't care about turn down service and the towel animals.  I am more interested in enrichment, but that has gone downhill so that is why I booked a port heavy voyage and will probably be too pooped to be requiring enrichment anyway.  I do long for the "good ol days", but not sure if those are going to return to HAL so I'm adapting.  

[Bostonjetset]

3 hours ago, *Miss G* said:

 

Ah.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  For me it’s the fact that I don’t have to pay a premium to have forward-facing public areas or give up full proms which encompass the entire ship as opposed to having about 1/3 of the prom available to walk then having to make your way through the interior to get to the other side.  There is no forward or aft prom on the newer competitor ships!  

 

Other brands have gone out of their way to make their newer ships inward-facing whilst HAL still focuses on the sea no matter where you go on the ship (and without paying the premium required by other lines for that same access).

 

Oh!  And I also like the fact that HAL doesn’t blast loud music or movies at me (or other ships in port) during the day on the Lido big screens!!

 

Totally agree. Also, even as HAL’s largest ships, the Pinnacle ships are still considerably smaller than other lines’ newer ships.

[Bostonjetset]

3 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Next question, as a younger cruiser, why would you pick a HAL ship over any of the other mainstream brands? What keeps the larger HAL  ships unique enough to create brand loyalty. What X-factors make HAL a re-booking choice, by brand alone.

 

Recently on the Konigsdam, and did not feel that same HAL feeling nor understand why it would now stand out among the newer competition.  It was just a generic  big, busy, noisy ship in our own  HAL brand loyalty experience. (Itinerary-price-intimacy of size-onboard ambiance)

 

For us, it was easy to feel brand uniqueness in HAL's smaller, older ships, since no one else was offering the same range of itineraries and value for the same prices, and we did fall in love with the warm, welcoming HAL special service touches that we got for the price -that was our sweet spot.

 

But it is not something the larger, newer HAL ships still offer us. Being on board felt more like "work" than a comfortable cocoon.

 

So I am curious, what is it about the new HAL ships experiences that now creates a brand loyalty among younger passengers?

I’m younger as well (40) at least by HAL standards and they are easily my favorite line even though we sail others. The Rotterdam was one of the prettiest ships we’ve sailed in a while. We like Princess ships too but they are a little TOO similar to each other to the point you can’t really tell which is which from the interiors.
 

The Pinnacle ships still have the HAL feeling to me with the wonderful crew and elegant touches. They are just bigger and MUCH brighter inside. That said, I loved the Veendam as well when I sailed her. I think Zuiderdam is one of the uglier HAL ships but we had a great Baltic itinerary on her so I didn’t care. 

[Guest ldtr]

4 hours ago, OlsSalt said:

 

Let me restate that - not why does one pick a newer HAL ship over an older HAL ship. You points are well taken and  understood - within the HAL brand itself.

 

But why pick a HAL newer ship over other the competing brands at similar price points and itinerary offerings, which are now limited by the sheer size of newer ship - Celebrity, Princess, etc... or even the larger cruise ships with high-level onboard entertainment.

 

What is it about the new larger HAL ships that will generate brand loyalty ,like they did with their smaller, older ships which had little competition.

1. Even the largest HAL ships are smaller than available on other mainstream lines

 

2. HAL offers more unique itineraries than the other mainstream  lines

 

3. The entertainment with the music walk is different and more attractive to others than the other mainstream lines

 

4. Some of use find the food and service to be better than the other mainstream lines.

 

HAL has been effective is lowering their average age taking it from above 65 to now around 60 according to recent reports.

[BetsyS.]

Bostonjetset - I loved the Veendam too and I was very sorry that she was sold. 

My stepfather and I will continue to sail on HAL because it leaves out of Boston.

We like the itineraries and we think HAL has the best crew at sea.

[Stateroom_Sailor]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:28 AM, OlsSalt said:

 

Let me restate that - not why does one pick a newer HAL ship over an older HAL ship. You points are well taken and  understood - within the HAL brand itself.

 

But why pick a HAL newer ship over other the competing brands at similar price points and itinerary offerings, which are now limited by the sheer size of newer ship - Celebrity, Princess, etc... or even the larger cruise ships with high-level onboard entertainment.

 

What is it about the new larger HAL ships that will generate brand loyalty ,like they did with their smaller, older ships which had little competition.

 

We started with Carnival and left due to corporate integrity, declining passenger behavior, and cuts to food and maintenance.  We tried Royal Caribbean once, but didn't like the dining or the diehard loyalists.  We loved our first three Celebrity cruises, but left due to a self-righteous CEO, maintenance issues, integrity, and food shortages.  There were virtually no vegetables to be found on our last 12 night cruise, until they rounded up frozen mixed veggies on day 11.

 

I first sailed on HAL in 2018 at age 39.  I've only sailed on Nieuw Amsterdam, so have no experience with the older or newer ships.  We like modern ships and entertainment, but it is not why we cruise.  Pre-pandemic, we've enjoyed HAL's food, service, cabins, price, and itineraries.  In 2023, it looks like HAL may be slipping as well, but exotic itineraries for the money will likely remain worth a consideration.