Are pre-paid gratuities even worth it any more?

[Ellaleah]

5 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

In many cases you are providing some of them with an extravagant life style. We’ve talked to many crew members who are highly educated, college degreed, and they said they make much more money working on a cruise ship than the could at home working in a job that needed their degree to get.

 

5 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

In many cases you are providing some of them with an extravagant life style. We’ve talked to many crew members who are highly educated, college degreed, and they said they make much more money working on a cruise ship than the could at home working in a job that needed their degree to get.

 

5 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

In many cases you are providing some of them with an extravagant life style. We’ve talked to many crew members who are highly educated, college degreed, and they said they make much more money working on a cruise ship than the could at home working in a job that needed their degree to get.

That probably depends on where “home” is for them!  Have you encountered any Americans working on ships that say it’s better than the job they could get at home?  Doubtful.  There was one American that worked on a cruise ship and wrote a book about it.  It was very interesting, but it certainly did not sound glamorous or lucrative.  The book is Cruise Confidential.

[zitsky]

7 hours ago, Ellaleah said:

 

 

That probably depends on where “home” is for them!  Have you encountered any Americans working on ships that say it’s better than the job they could get at home?  Doubtful.  There was one American that worked on a cruise ship and wrote a book about it.  It was very interesting, but it certainly did not sound glamorous or lucrative.  The book is Cruise Confidential.

Is there a minimum wage on cruise ships as they are not US based?

 

That book is pretty cringe if you believe the 1 and 2 star reviews.

[Baggy178]

Cruising must be one of those rare occasions where folk will blithely hand over $400+ to a total stranger with absolutely no idea who is receiving the cash or what it's used for beyond a rather bland and vague statement that it goes to the crew.

What's remarkable is how other cruise lines have abandoned gratuities altogether yet still manage to attract crew and not be any more expensive than other lines.

On our last P&O cruise the crew still got plenty of tips on top of their normal wages and everyone seemed very happy with the arrangment.

Who'da thunk it ?

Edited July 12, 2023 by Baggy178

[miched]

Worth it if you pay before any price increases.🤑

 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌅

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by miched

[grandgeezer]

12 hours ago, Ellaleah said:

 

 

That probably depends on where “home” is for them!  Have you encountered any Americans working on ships that say it’s better than the job they could get at home?  Doubtful.  There was one American that worked on a cruise ship and wrote a book about it.  It was very interesting, but it certainly did not sound glamorous or lucrative.  The book is Cruise Confidential.

That’s because it’s not for 99% of the people in the U.S. Who in their right mind would take a job that you have to abandon your family and friends for six months or longer, work seven days a week, up to twelve hours a day unless the money was substantially more than they could make at home? When I first started out I had a job that paid big bucks but it required me to travel a lot, sometimes for two weeks, or longer. When I met the girl of my dreams, I quit, and found a job that paid less money but allowed me to stay home. That was only about 54 years ago.

As far as the ONE American who wrote the book, what was her job? I’m guessing it wasn’t a room steward, a drink server or any of what I would call manual laborers.

If I recall, RCL has a ship that just does Hawaii and is flagged in the U.S. If so, they have to abide by our laws that cover wages, hours worked, etc. They might have Americans doing the manual labor jobs.

[davekathy]

24 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

That’s because it’s not for 99% of the people in the U.S. Who in their right mind would take a job that you have to abandon your family and friends for six months or longer, work seven days a week, up to twelve hours a day unless the money was substantially more than they could make at home?

You just insulted everyone that is serving in the military. 

[zitsky]

Most of these folks are on contracts, yes?  What are the consequences for breaking it?  Let’s say conditions are really bad or there is sexual harassment?

 

I think that is the motivation for tipping.  Because they don’t get US salaries.

[Ex-Airbalancer]

38 minutes ago, grandgeezer said:

That’s because it’s not for 99% of the people in the U.S. Who in their right mind would take a job that you have to abandon your family and friends for six months or longer, work seven days a week, up to twelve hours a day unless the money was substantially more than they could make at home? When I first started out I had a job that paid big bucks but it required me to travel a lot, sometimes for two weeks, or longer. When I met the girl of my dreams, I quit, and found a job that paid less money but allowed me to stay home. That was only about 54 years ago.

As far as the ONE American who wrote the book, what was her job? I’m guessing it wasn’t a room steward, a drink server or any of what I would call manual laborers.

If I recall, RCL has a ship that just does Hawaii and is flagged in the U.S. If so, they have to abide by our laws that cover wages, hours worked, etc. They might have Americans doing the manual labor jobs.

It is a NCL ship 

[markeb]

1 hour ago, zitsky said:

Most of these folks are on contracts, yes?  What are the consequences for breaking it?  Let’s say conditions are really bad or there is sexual harassment?

 

I think that is the motivation for tipping.  Because they don’t get US salaries.

 

The motivation for tipping is that most US centered (obviously not US incorporated or registered) cruise lines follow a version of the US service industry compensation model. That model generally requires the employer to ensure the employee makes at least minimum wage, but they can count tips towards compensation. If the employee doesn't get enough in tips to meet minimum, the employer has to pay the difference. If the employees salary is at least minimum wage, there's no plus-up. I have no idea if the cruise lines follow that part of the US model.

 

And tipping in general has a pretty sordid history in the US (it's really a North American thing now). It originated in Europe, actually, in a Master-Serf world, and came to America about the time of the Civil War and the US aristocrat class adopted it. It was actually considered a bit obscene. Then it became a method to not directly pay former slaves after the Civil War.

 

Several large restaurant groups have tried over the years to eliminate tipping, including Alice Waters, Thomas Keller (Per Se) and most recently the Union Square Hospitality Group which raised prices in 2015 for a "Hospitality Included" model; they abandoned it in 2020. In fact, gratuities are included at Per Se, but people still tip! Cruise ships aren't Michelin starred restaurants, but wait staff at higher end restaurants have historically made far more money on tips than direct compensation; they want the tips instead of a higher salary. I suspect many cruise employees also do better on tips than they would on higher direct compensation.

 

I'm all in favor of fares that include all customary and required charges. Celebrity does that in some markets. But the whole industry has to do it; there are too many people out there who just price shop without looking at what's included in the price.

[markeb]

6 hours ago, Baggy178 said:

Cruising must be one of those rare occasions where folk will blithely hand over $400+ to a total stranger with absolutely no idea who is receiving the cash or what it's used for beyond a rather bland and vague statement that it goes to the crew.

What's remarkable is how other cruise lines have abandoned gratuities altogether yet still manage to attract crew and not be any more expensive than other lines.

On our last P&O cruise the crew still got plenty of tips on top of their normal wages and everyone seemed very happy with the arrangment.

Who'da thunk it ?

 

Which mass market cruise lines sail primarily from North America and have abandoned gratuities? Most of the lists I see (and I'm not in the mood to look at every cruise line's web page) are UK centric with a caveat that cruises sold in other parts of the world may have separate gratuities. MSC and Viking are the two that are most confusing to me; if you book MSC in the US, there's a daily service charge added. If you book MSC elsewhere in the world, the service fees are included in the fare (from what I can find).

 

Yes, the luxury lines are generally all-in without daily gratuities. It's probably the best indicator of where Celebrity really exists in the market that they don't believe they can differentiate themselves as a premium line and up their fares to include gratuities. They're competing on price with the mass market cruise lines on the price searches, and their competition doesn't include gratuities when you sort by price...

[Ellaleah]

3 hours ago, grandgeezer said:

That’s because it’s not for 99% of the people in the U.S. Who in their right mind would take a job that you have to abandon your family and friends for six months or longer, work seven days a week, up to twelve hours a day unless the money was substantially more than they could make at home? When I first started out I had a job that paid big bucks but it required me to travel a lot, sometimes for two weeks, or longer. When I met the girl of my dreams, I quit, and found a job that paid less money but allowed me to stay home. That was only about 54 years ago.

As far as the ONE American who wrote the book, what was her job? I’m guessing it wasn’t a room steward, a drink server or any of what I would call manual laborers.

If I recall, RCL has a ship that just does Hawaii and is flagged in the U.S. If so, they have to abide by our laws that cover wages, hours worked, etc. They might have Americans doing the manual labor jobs.

The American that wrote the book started in a very low level ( I think waiter) and moved up.  He did it for a non American girl that worked on the ship.  It tells of the hard work and long hours.  That is why you will not find Americans working on ships.

[zitsky]

5 minutes ago, Ellaleah said:

The American that wrote the book started in a very low level ( I think waiter) and moved up.  He did it for a non American girl that worked on the ship.  It tells of the hard work and long hours.  That is why you will not find Americans working on ships.

Also a lot of drinking and sex, if you believe the reviews.

[Ellaleah]

33 minutes ago, zitsky said:

Also a lot of drinking and sex, if you believe the reviews.

Most Americans enjoy drinking and sex while making a lot more $!

[Travel-and-See]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

Which mass market cruise lines sail primarily from North America and have abandoned gratuities?

Not abandoned, but Virgin is the prime example. They pay their staff more than other cruise lines and make it clear there is no expectation to tip anyone on board. In the post-cruise surveys it specifically asks if any member of the crew made you feel that you needed to tip. They take it very seriously and I appreciate it.

 

(If you want to argue Virgin isn't mass market that's fine.. just responding.  The only 2 lines I sail are Virgin and Celebrity and I consider them pretty similar and think both of them do things right and wrong). 

 

I do appreciate that Celebrity will deduct the gratuities from OBC.. so as long as I watch how many drinks I purchase (I never buy a drink package anymore) I don't pay anything extra. So that works for me. 

[mbrust]

It would be interesting to know the breakdown and percentage of where the automatic tips go. Remember years ago on Princess (20+) that if you requested they would give you a  list of  % and employes that were included.  At that time a large amt. went to the cruise director!

Just hope they include those really tough jobs in the kitchen, laundry ,etc.

 

[SusieAV8R]

7 hours ago, davekathy said:

You just insulted everyone that is serving in the military. 

Davekathy, you are right on the mark!!  DH is retired military after 31 years and many of our closest friends are also!!

[jbcallender]

You pay them one way or the other.  I don't know what the fuss is about.

[Baggy178]

17 hours ago, jbcallender said:

You pay them one way or the other.  I don't know what the fuss is about.

 

You only pay them if you pay them because of course they are entirely voluntary.

We have decided to have them removed from our account and replace them with a figure of 15% of the cost of our cruise rather than an arbitrary figure of $36 a day and use part of our OBC to do this.

It seems to us a much more realistic gratuity and this way Celebrity actually uses its own money to pay its crew.

A fantastic compromise - I should have been in the diplomatic service 🤣

 

[jbcallender]

4 hours ago, Baggy178 said:

 

You only pay them if you pay them because of course they are entirely voluntary.

We have decided to have them removed from our account and replace them with a figure of 15% of the cost of our cruise rather than an arbitrary figure of $36 a day and use part of our OBC to do this.

It seems to us a much more realistic gratuity and this way Celebrity actually uses its own money to pay its crew.

A fantastic compromise - I should have been in the diplomatic service 🤣

 

In the service world, 15% is on the low end of the gratuity scale these days, at least in most US cities of any size.  Do you have the guest services charge the 15% on your bill an designate it for gratuities or do you hand out cash to certain staff members?

Edited July 14, 2023 by jbcallender
Just a revision.

[zitsky]

6 minutes ago, jbcallender said:

In the service world, 15% is on the low end of the gratuity scale these days, at least in most US cities of any size.  Do you have the guest services charge the 15% on your bill an designate it for gratuities or do you hand out cash to certain staff members?

The nice thing is people can decide for themselves whether to tip.  What’s the maximum that you tip?

[jbcallender]

Let me really throw some gas on the fire.  If you are going on a cruise, you most likely have infinitely more resources than the vast majority of the non-officer crewmembers, save perhaps engineering and technical crew.  Many are supporting multiple families by spending six months away from home working 80 or 100 hours a week, sleeping in cramped spaces.  Speakiing for only myself, I have no problem with paying the designated gratuity amounts and then a bit more on top of that.

[jbcallender]

3 minutes ago, zitsky said:

The nice thing is people can decide for themselves whether to tip.  What’s the maximum that you tip?

 Well, I spent 40 years in the luxury hotel and resort business, so I might be biased.  I know very well what bellmen, servers and bussers and bartenders make and which positions are tipped and which aren't.  I don't know cruising, but I can't imagine that base pay for those positions is very exciting by our standards.  By someone in a third world country with limited opportunity, the pay is probably quite amazing.  Tipping is a personal decision, no doubt, but because of my background, I usually tip a restaurant server 20%, and more if they really make an impression.  I usually tip a cabin attendant $100, a suite butler $150.  In the days where you had MDR servers and assistants all week, I would tip them $100 each.  That's just me.  I've waited and bussed tables and schlepped bags around early in my career and it's hard work for the $4.00 or $5.00 an hour base that you get.  Sometimes its a bit more than that, but not much.  In the US at least, tips are reportable income and are taxable as well.

 

A major reason most ships aren't registered in the US is so they don't have to follow US wage and hour laws.

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, zitsky said:

The nice thing is people can decide for themselves whether to tip.  What’s the maximum that you tip?

 

True.  I think the point might be the other poster suggested his arbitrary 15% was somehow a more "realistic figure" and the poster you quoted was simply pointing out it was at the low end of a customary tip.  

 

        

[Baggy178]

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

True.  I think the point might be the other poster suggested his arbitrary 15% was somehow a more "realistic figure" and the poster you quoted was simply pointing out it was at the low end of a customary tip.  

 

        

 

15% would be towards the top end of gratuities in the UK where hospitality staff are paid a legal minimum wage.

In our case the automatic gratuities would amount to 27% of our fare.

As we've already established US cruise lines are registered elsewhere precisely to avoid US labor and salary laws so I'm not sure why US gratuity levels are relevant here.

Why encourage multi-national corporations to avoid paying their staff a decent salary ?

And tipping someone just because they're away from home for a few months ? Hey sailor, welcome to life at sea.

At the end of the day gratuities are voluntary - I wouldn't allow a restaurant to tell me how much to tip so why treat cruise lines any different ?

 

 

 

[zitsky]

9 hours ago, jbcallender said:

Let me really throw some gas on the fire.  If you are going on a cruise, you most likely have infinitely more resources than the vast majority of the non-officer crewmembers, save perhaps engineering and technical crew.  Many are supporting multiple families by spending six months away from home working 80 or 100 hours a week, sleeping in cramped spaces.  Speakiing for only myself, I have no problem with paying the designated gratuity amounts and then a bit more on top of that.

If working conditions are that abusive, maybe we should petition the government to abolish cruise lines instead of supporting the practice?  Or at the very least, make them follow US labor law.

 

I once worked 60-80 hrs / week for 3 years.  I did it for, wait for it, the compensation.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by zitsky