Looking for advice LAX to China and return from Tokyo.

[goletans]

As we're about a year out from our March cruise, it's time to get serious about flights. We're looking at LAX to either Hong Kong or Beijing to begin a DIY pre cruise tour. At this point refundable, business class air is our preference. Today I found American and United to Beijing at $25,000. This is a firm Nope. Does anyone have suggestions on airlines, one-way tix vrs multi-city flights? It's too early to get good results on the Google Flights matrix. We may consider premium seating but were really spoiled recently by Qatar. 

[CruiserBruce]

Have you checked with what your cruise line air program offers?

 

Capacity is still pretty restricted to China, due to slow re-opening of travel to China. So airfares are very high.

[FlyerTalker]

You really need to ask yourself about your choice of Hong Kong vs Beijing.  Significant differences in both carrier options and pricing. Plus over 1200 miles apart.

 

One other thing you need to be looking at is how pricing varies between the four coastal gateways - LAX, SFO, SEA and YVR.  There is the most competition into LAX, but that doesn't always translate into the best pricing.  For example, for a recent flight from Asia, it was significantly less expensive to fly into SEA rather than either SFO or LAX.  In addition, you should look at connection routings through Seoul, Tokyo and Taipei.

 

One other item of note:  IMO, there is a significant service differential between the mainland Chinese carriers and other Asian airlines.  By mainland, I mean Air China (NOT China Airlines, which is much different), China Southern, China Eastern, Hainan, and Shenzhen.  OTOH, both China Airlines and EVA, from Taipei, are quite good.  Same with JAL, ANA, Korean, Cathay and Singapore.  So don't just be focused on price.

 

 

 

 

[em-sk]

If your set on spending time in China then its the major US, Canadian and Asian airlines with the associated pricing.

 

Zipair is the low cost operator between Canada/US and Japan.  You may be able to get some reasonably priced business class seats there.  Spend some time in Japan then travel a much shorted flight into/from China on someone else.

 

WestJet sometimes have decent business class, however that is going to be a two stop route with both a connection in Calgary and then again in Japan or South Korea. 

[FlyerTalker]

25 minutes ago, em-sk said:

Zipair is the low cost operator between Canada/US and Japan.  You may be able to get some reasonably priced business class seats there.  Spend some time in Japan then travel a much shorted flight into/from China on someone else.

 

Be aware that Zipair is a very ala carte product.  Though you can buy a "business class seat", you have everything else as an add-on charge.  You want a meal...that's extra.  You want to check a bag....extra.  You want lounge access....extra. How about a blanket?  Yep, extra.  So by the time you add up everything, it's not that much of a bargain.

 

Plus, you would now need to buy a completely separate ticket from Tokyo to China/Hong Kong (still not sure what you are trying to accomplish).

 

 

[Globaliser]

11 hours ago, goletans said:

As we're about a year out from our March cruise, it's time to get serious about flights. We're looking at LAX to either Hong Kong or Beijing to begin a DIY pre cruise tour. At this point refundable, business class air is our preference.

 

Time to get serious, perhaps; but probably not yet time to get cheap fares, which often aren't available as soon as booking opens.

 

 

However, "refundable business class" and "cheap" are mutually exclusive. If you were to add "non-stop" to that (you don't say whether or not you want this), then you may well be in the correct ballpark already with the fares that you've found. But you can probably cut this down quite a bit if you are prepared to connect somewhere. Maybe Singapore Airlines for less than $9,000 to Hong Kong?

[CDNPolar]

Because major international airlines still have restrictions the demand is high as others have said.

 

With family in mainland China, we find it hard to find an ECONOMY return through Beijing or Shanghai (then an internal flight to home city) for under $3,500 to $4,000 and pre-pandemic we could get this for $900 - $1,200

 

Also, our experience is Japan is more costly to and from China.  This is our experience.  Our best pricing recently has been through South Korea.

[Gardyloo]

Adding "refundable" to the equation creates a real mismatch with any attempt at keeping the budget bearable.  Almost all the "normal" fares, which would be in the $4000 - $5000 range at present, will bounce up to nearly double that if you want the ticket to be fully refundable.  

 

The one exception I could think of (top of the head stuff) would still involve a cancellation penalty, but not a terribly big one; it might be worth contemplating.

 

Both Oneworld and Star Alliance offer "Circle Pacific" fares in which you travel in one direction via the North Pacific (e.g. LAX to Tokyo or Hong Kong) and via the South Pacific in the other, e.g. Sydney - LAX.  Within those broad rules, you can take up to 16 flights, using member airlines of whichever alliance product you choose.

 

Both alliances sell Circle Pacific fares with different flown mileage maximums - 22,000 flown miles and 26,000.  Obviously the higher mileage costs more, but one of the big features of these products is that they're priced very differently depending on the country from which the travel begins.  For example, a Oneworld 22,000 miles Circle Pacific fare in business class with travel starting and ending in the USA has a base price of $9998.  (Taxes and airline fees would be additional depending on which countries are visited and which airlines are used.)  However, the same ticket costs $5967 if travel begins in Canada.  So hop a $120 flight to Vancouver to save four grand?  Okay by me.  

 

Now regarding cancellations and refunds.  If you cancel before the first flight, there's a 5% penalty; that's it.  So on a $6K ticket you'd be out $300, which I'd say is pretty tolerable.  

 

So imagine you book something like this:  Vancouver - Seattle - Honolulu - Sydney - Hong Kong - Beijing - Tokyo - Los Angeles.  Total 20,475 flown miles, all in the pointy end using Alaska, Qantas, Cathay Pacific, Japan and American Airlines.  (You can end in LA even if you started in Canada - no penalty.) 

 

Obviously this would take more time than a simple round trip or open-jaw ticket, but it needn't be too punishing - a few extra hours in the air (in a flat bed) and a couple of nights in Sydney (or could be Auckland, Melbourne, Brisbane...) and you're good to go.  

 

Anyway, I thought I'd throw that out.  

[waterbug123]

Refundable tickets are generally always going to be sky high.  Even if your plans change, keep in mind that many airlines will issue a travel credit if you cancel a non-refundable flight.  This gets you the cheaper non-refundable rate, and you still get your money back, just not as a credit on your credit card.  Yes, you'd have to use that travel credit within a year usually but if you travel a lot that might not be difficult.  Just something to consider.

[Zach1213]

20 hours ago, goletans said:

As we're about a year out from our March cruise, it's time to get serious about flights. We're looking at LAX to either Hong Kong or Beijing to begin a DIY pre cruise tour. At this point refundable, business class air is our preference. Today I found American and United to Beijing at $25,000. This is a firm Nope. Does anyone have suggestions on airlines, one-way tix vrs multi-city flights? It's too early to get good results on the Google Flights matrix. We may consider premium seating but were really spoiled recently by Qatar. 

 

As mentioned, Hong Kong and Beijing are...not close. That's akin to saying "I am looking at either Boston or Miami" because they're about the same distance apart.

 

All that being said, I'll echo the thoughts about refundable travel. I travel for a living, and am in the air hundreds of thousands of miles each year. I'm lucky enough to do most of this in business class, and have done so for 15 years or so...so my mileage has been in the millions. I can count on one hand the number of times I've purchased a refundable fare. You're limiting yourself and costing yourself a ton of unnecessary money by doing so. 

[FlyerTalker]

One other questions is:  What kind of refund are you looking for?

 

Fares can come with refundability in the form of airline credit or credit back to your form of payment.  Just what kind of "refund" are you desiring?  Recognize that the latter is often far more costly than the former.

 

Like Zach, I rarely buy a fully refundable to payment type of fare.  I've found that refunds to flight credit often work out just fine, and I can't think of when I wasn't able to use those credits at some point for other travel.

 

Interestingly, I just bought some tickets on ANA for business travel from Asia.  They offered two types of tickets - those that were refundable to airline credit and refundable to cash.  The fare difference was only $75, so in this case I bought the one refundable to cash.  Now the point to note is that you only got this option after digging into the buying process -- the option and pricing wasn't offered at the very start of the flight search.  So remember: Effective air travel purchasing requires more than just simple point and click -- you can get search results quickly and you can get them economically, but rarely in the same time.

[CDNPolar]

In the past year we have had to cancel two sets of air tickets.  

 

The first was with EVA and the route was Toronto to Cambodia, Vietnam to Toronto.  We cancelled these flights for $200 per ticket.  We bought this fare and cancelation option purposely and it was only marginally more expensive than a fare with a credit.

 

The second was just recently and these were with Korean Air and these were Toronto to Shenyang  and then Shenyang to Toronto.  These had a $250 per ticket cancelation but because there were minor changes to the flight schedules they allowed cancellation for no fee.  Again, these fares with cancelation refund were purchased purposely in case...

 

There are fares out there if you are booking far enough in advance that include cancelation.  The question is are you going to pay for cancelation insurance or a slightly higher fare with the option to cancel.  

 

With both of these the increased fare was cheaper than insurance.

[goletans]

WOW! I knew you all would come through with facts and ideas to ponder.

 

We are looking at Hong Kong and Beijing as starting points for the land tour because we can reverse the order of the cities we want to visit. The cruise is Hong Kong to Tokyo. LAX is easy to start from and end at, and we want to minimize flight time duration.

 

FlyerTalker

Although we will accept airline credit we prefer credit back to our form of payment. 

 

“One other item of note:  IMO, there is a significant service differential between the mainland Chinese carriers and other Asian airlines.  By mainland, I mean Air China (NOT China Airlines, which is much different), China Southern, China Eastern, Hainan, and Shenzhen.  OTOH, both China Airlines and EVA, from Taipei, are quite good.  Same with JAL, ANA, Korean, Cathay and Singapore.  So don't just be focused on price.”

 

We are happy to look at all airlines that serve our itinerary. These are helpful suggestions.

Are there any airlines you advise against? Do you have favorites?

 

CDNPolar

Yes, we are willing to pay a slightly higher fare with the option to cancel. We will consider South Korea. Thank you for that idea.

 

Zach1213

We completely understand the cost of refundable travel and have experienced its value when we had to cancel for a situation that insurance did not cover. It also brings peace of mind that is hard to put a price on.

 

Gardyloo

We have considered offers such as "Circle Pacific” but prefer to keep things as simple as possible.

 

CruiserBruce

The cruise line is Oceania. While using O flights can be a very good value, I prefer to have control over our flights and lock in said control and choice earlier than O will allow.

 

Globaliser

We will only accept cheap for short, direct flights from our local airport. We are looking at reasonable connections. Singapore Airlines to Hong Kong is definitely a consideration.

[FlyerTalker]

3 minutes ago, goletans said:

We are looking at Hong Kong and Beijing as starting points for the land tour because we can reverse the order of the cities we want to visit. The cruise is Hong Kong to Tokyo.

 

If your land tour is either PEK-HKG or HKG-PEK, it makes far more sense, IMO, to end the tour in the city where the cruise starts.  One less flight involved and the tour gets you to where you need to be.

 

Thus, your flight booking would be LAX-PEK with a return of TYO-LAX.  The land tour takes care of getting you to HKG.

 

6 minutes ago, goletans said:

Are there any airlines you advise against? Do you have favorites?

 

For the routing noted above, I would suggest JAL or ANA.  Both would bring you back non-stop from Tokyo to LAX.  I would also be comparing your options and pricing with Korean, EVA and China Airlines as all have at least equivalent product with ANA/JAL.

 

The mainland Chinese carriers may have lower pricing for their tickets.  Only you can determine what the right price/product evaluation is.

 

11 minutes ago, goletans said:

Gardyloo

We have considered offers such as "Circle Pacific” but prefer to keep things as simple as possible.

 

Remember that simplicity often has a cost.

 

 

[goletans]

Absolutely,  it makes more sense to end the tour in the city where the cruise starts. We could achieve this with PEK to HKG to start the cruise. What I think I'm finding is that a flight from PEK to HKG at the end of the land tour, adding this to a LAX to HKG at the start may dollar-wise be better than LAX to PEK at the start. Does this make sense? I know what I'm saying, but may not be making this clear.

[FlyerTalker]

So, your two options are:

 

1)  Fly LAX-PEK, land tour to HKG, cruise to TYO, Fly TYO-LAX

 

2)  Fly LAX-HKG, land tour to PEK, Fly PEK-HKG, cruise to TYO, Fly TYO-LAX

 

I personally doubt that you will be able to find business class tickets PEK-HKG low enough to offset any savings by going to HKG vs PEK for the first leg.  But only actual research will answer that question.

 

 

[goletans]

20 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

So, your two options are:

 

1)  Fly LAX-PEK, land tour to HKG, cruise to TYO, Fly TYO-LAX

 

2)  Fly LAX-HKG, land tour to PEK, Fly PEK-HKG, cruise to TYO, Fly TYO-LAX

 

I personally doubt that you will be able to find business class tickets PEK-HKG low enough to offset any savings by going to HKG vs PEK for the first leg.  But only actual research will answer that question.

 

 

Oh, good. I made sense. Yep, research continues. Although not the dates we need, this shows the range of costs - from Chase Travel.

[FlyerTalker]

Anyone buying that UA ticket has FAR more money than sense.  Take ANA. 

 

My only further suggestion is that in your research you use BJS as the code for Beijing and TYO for Tokyo.  These are "city codes" and will give you all the airports, not just Beijing Capital (PEK) and Narita (NRT) - as Haneda (HND) is much closer to your port areas in Tokyo than Narita.

 

That ANA pricing is a reasonable one for that kind of routing.

 

 

[happy cruzer]

You may want to look  again at Gardyloo's advice.  At first the RTW or Circle tickets look complicated, put a little work and practice yielded great options.  I spent a few hours seeing how the RTW ticket works and now I am a believer!

[goletans]

22 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

My only further suggestion is that in your research you use BJS as the code for Beijing and TYO for Tokyo. 

GREAT advice! Thank you.

[goletans]

20 hours ago, happy cruzer said:

You may want to look  again at Gardyloo's advice.  At first the RTW or Circle tickets look complicated, put a little work and practice yielded great options.  I spent a few hours seeing how the RTW ticket works and now I am a believer!

Will do. Work and practice will be good for my aging brain. 🙃