Breaking News !! RCCL to review Gratuities

[vivavino]

I just finished a cruise on Radiance OTS for 14 nights.

My traveling buddy and I had signed up for My Time dining, so we had prepaid gratuities, yet we ate in alternate dining all but three nights of the trip.

 

I really don't care about an extra $50 for a trip - I would have booked it anyway - but I really wonder who I'm paying, when my tips go to waiters and busboys I never met, and I still leave a few small bills with the check in Portofino and Chops.

 

I am mightily tempted to book NO Dining, and just tip by the meal.

 

I actually look for opportunities to tip people for good service... but if we've never met, what exactly am I paying for except for the cruiselines failure to pay decent wages?

[luckyprincess]

I just finished a cruise on Radiance OTS for 14 nights.

My traveling buddy and I had signed up for My Time dining, so we had prepaid gratuities, yet we ate in alternate dining all but three nights of the trip.

 

I really don't care about an extra $50 for a trip - I would have booked it anyway - but I really wonder who I'm paying, when my tips go to waiters and busboys I never met, and I still leave a few small bills with the check in Portofino and Chops.

 

I am mightily tempted to book NO Dining, and just tip by the meal.

 

I actually look for opportunities to tip people for good service... but if we've never met, what exactly am I paying for except for the cruiselines failure to pay decent wages?

Welcome Back! I think (although I think this is another of those things that take on a life of its own, get ready!:eek:) that they have it set up so that everyone gets tipped if everyone pays the suggested gratuity. Think of it this way - the suggested grats are per DAY, not per DINNER, so if you ate anywhere on the ship where you were served by an employee for breakfast, lunch or snacks then your tips went to even that out. Because the MDR servers also serve elsewhere on the ship and at different meal times, you were bound to have been served by one of them. Plus, the pre paid grats cover your cabin steward, too. I actually don't think you CAN choose no dining but I have no idea why! My parents only really like eating in the WJ and Portofinos/Chops but they still had to pick a dining time...

[Gablin]

chaswelf,

 

You wrote, "The real question is should one respect the customs of the county [sic] they are visiting?"

 

I get that most of the cruse lines are owned by American corporations, but is the traveller really visiting the US when they cruise? If the cruise is advertised heavily in Ireland, England, France, Germany and Spain, is it not more of an international event?

 

I have friends from Great Britain who come to the US and tip hotel staff and servers just as I do while they are here. Yet, a cruise, advertised in their country, offered on a ship registered in the Bahamas, cruising the Adriatic and the Med, might not seem so "American" to them.

 

I think I would prefer the British system to ours. Family members have worked as wait staff while in school and the wages are very low. The kids are taxed based on a percentage of the gross amount that they sold, whether the customers tipped properly or not. They have to "tip out" the hosts/hostesses and busboys, etc., too.

 

It's not going to change any time soon, though.

[gofeo]

There is a big legal and logical difference between a Gratuity(TIP) and a service charge. Basically a Gratuity is monies voluntarily given for a service above what would be the norm. A service charge is actually a back door to paying salaries, it is not voluntary, given for any level of service and added to the basic cost.

 

In most of the world including some places in the US, service charges are clearly posted and automatically added to a bill. If cruise lines created a sur charge, clearly noted on the invoice, the amount would be equal from all cruisers and the staff would benefit. Then, if a cruiser receives exceptional service from a member of the staff, they may give a gratuity in an amount of their own choosing.

 

To give a gratuity for less than above average service seems illogical

 

I like this explanation. It makes a lot of sense. I would like to see the service charge and a way to designate it to who you want it to go. (your waiter, room steward, ect) and you could still tip them if you want to.

[Hlitner]

Why do some of you insist on using the term "Gratuities" when referring to a simple fee or price increase. The Webster definition of "gratutity" says this term is something given voluntarily for service. I think the "voluntary" is somehow lost in current cruise lines pricing policies. The current policy would be like going into a clothing store and buying some clothes and than having 20% added to the cost for service. Or having a hotel add a charge such as "resort fees" which are simply a devious way to charge a higher price without actually showing that price in various marketing schemes. How about a mailman that charges you $10 every time he/she delivers the mail for "gratuities." We have been avid cruisrs for over 35 years and watched all the iterations of so-called cruise line tipping including terms like "no tipping required." Of course if a tip is required, than it is no longer a tip or gratuity. And now we are seeing all kinds of booking -incentives that include "pre-paid gratutities." So, when is a "gratutity" not a "gratutity" but rather just a gimick to market crusie fares that are not realistic.

 

Hank

[HUNKY]

Seems simple to me...

 

Booked in the US, you may prepay OR tip at the end of the cruise.

 

Booked outside the US, or using a non-US credit card, your service charge will be added to your cruise fare and paid upfront.

 

Working at a restaurant, I am amazed at our foreign business executives who do not understand how to tip in an American fine dining restaurant. Especially, when they have US associates dining with them to help determine an appropriate tip and provide advice.

 

It reminds me of the American Express ad with the US host paying with a credit card with a juvenile picture on the card, and his German? guests laughing to themselves. The waiter was probably relieved that the US host was paying the bill, instead of the foreigner who might just round up a $495 bill to $500, instead of tipping $100 for excellent service.

 

For those foreign guests traveling on their own (without a good guidebook), I can only imagine how quickly they learn US customs after low balling their servers.

[pg.]

 

It reminds me of the American Express ad with the US host paying with a credit card with a juvenile picture on the card, and his German? guests laughing to themselves. The waiter was probably relieved that the US host was paying the bill, instead of the foreigner who might just round up a $495 bill to $500, instead of tipping $100 for excellent service.

 

For those foreign guests traveling on their own (without a good guidebook), I can only imagine how quickly they learn US customs after low balling their servers.

 

TWENTY FIVE PERCENT tips,, you think that is normal. Thats hilarious.. used to be 15%,, then 20% now we have an American waiter saying one should consider tipping 25%.. when does it end ?

[AZ_Roy]

I really wish they would just include the tips in the price, like they do the port charges, then if people wanted to give more they could, but everyone would get the suggested amount, lots less confusion

 

I agree with you 100%. Pay the crew a decent living wage. Charge what needs to be charged to cover that. Above that, let people tip if they feel they received good service. Making it mandatory drives people away. And how many people do you know put out a separate tip for each person at a table or hotel room?

[Albert Ross]

I second that! Include the tips in the cruise price.....I vote for that. I am sure that if you are pleased with the service, that the servers, cabin steward, etc. would get a extra tip and that would make everyone happy! Patty

 

Once again, the tips ARE ALWAYS included in the price quoted in England. Phone RCI UK and will get told the price of a cruise is "£1000 per person and that includes £50 gratuities and £150 port charges and non comissionables...."

 

It is the travel agents who remove the grats to make the price look cheaper.

It is the travel agents who do not tell people about the expected gratuities

The buck stops with them.

[sidari]

Albert .... for each of the 2 cruises we have booked with RCI via our chosen TA (same person each cruise) we have been told just how much the advance payment for Tips/Gratuities are because we booked MTD.... plus we also chose to add to them for the people we believed deserved it, including 1 waiter on our Vision cruise who had helped out our Main waiter and assistant waiter as well as looking after his own tables.

 

Now then if the Whole ship was to pay theirs in advance ...(something it seems having read all 4 threads currently running on this topic many of those from the USA have a problem with for some reason?)

There would be no need for prices to increase because those people that the advance Tips are aimed at would be getting a decent wage! plus anyone who felt the need to Reward someone further for their service can do so.

 

slk300 .... you might want to take your head from the sand on the beach and try and actually contribute something of interest instead of Sarcastic remarks!! after all Sarcasm is the Lowest form of Wit but i guess you would already know that.

[BridgeMates]

Then you get the situation we saw this summer on Grand Princess, where the line of UK passengers stretched throughout the atrium for most of the first two sea days. They were removing their auto-tip charges, and some were quite hostile about it.

 

I really think what the cruise lines and travel agencies need to do is educate their UK-based passengers about how the cost of cruising is different compared to their normal package holidays, and maybe even go so far as to have them sign a document that they understand the terms and conditions before they book. The complaint I have often heard is that people from the UK had no idea that the cruise fare did not include things like dining and hotel charges, tours, and specialty restaurants.

 

Same thing we saw on the Crown earlier this year. There were hundreds of people in line to cancel their auto-tip. In the end, well over 1,000 did. They call it a Hotel Service Charge (or something like that) on the stateroom account so why not just make it mandatory. If someone has legitimate complaints about their cabin steward, a specific waiter, or other service problem, and can identify exactly who did not meet their requiremnts, bring it to the attention of the Passenger Service Director on board and allow an adjustment in the "service charge". In other words, don't make it so easy to cancel the automatic charge without specifically identifying a problem so that it can be fixed.

[Alamogirl]

I think it is a bad idea as some will not give the "extra", as we always do. But then when you think of it, the bartenders/waitstaff automatically get a tip added to your bar order.

[Lady Meer]

Firstly, we have always paid the recommended tips plus tipping extra. Anyone who works 7 days a week for 9 months deserves a good tip!

 

Maybe one of the reasons some UK pax won't give the tips is that they have paid over the odds for the cruise anyway :mad:. If the cruise companies are looking at this then perhaps they should think about charging the Brits the same for the cruise as the US passengers pay. On our last cruise (from and to the UK), the US passengers paid less for their holiday (including air) than we did :confused:. We don't have the benefit of refundable deposits either. When I raised this with one cruise company the reply was "... the US and the UK markets are different". What does that mean????

[Mydnite]

Once again, the tips ARE ALWAYS included in the price quoted in England. Phone RCI UK and will get told the price of a cruise is "£1000 per person and that includes £50 gratuities and £150 port charges and non comissionables...."

 

It is the travel agents who remove the grats to make the price look cheaper.

It is the travel agents who do not tell people about the expected gratuities

The buck stops with them.

 

 

I agree totally, and have said so.

 

If people are first time crusiers, and many are from the RCL market, and they are not told, up front, before they ar eon the ship, about tipping, then how are then supposed to budget for it. If you call RCL they will automtically inclde tips. If you call TAs most will not include it, and will not mention it, and with e-docs it is difficult to find in the small print.

 

I have even had several TA's refuse to add it on even when I asked, and for the most part the TA's are suprised when I ask for it to be included.

 

The TA's need to be tackled, so that new and inexperienced cruisers know these cost before they book.

[Elizanessie]

I agree totally, and have said so.

 

If people are first time crusiers, and many are from the RCL market, and they are not told, up front, before they ar eon the ship, about tipping, then how are then supposed to budget for it. If you call RCL they will automtically inclde tips. If you call TAs most will not include it, and will not mention it, and with e-docs it is difficult to find in the small print.

 

I have even had several TA's refuse to add it on even when I asked, and for the most part the TA's are suprised when I ask for it to be included.

 

The TA's need to be tackled, so that new and inexperienced cruisers know these cost before they book.

 

 

The problem is with first time cruisers here even when they are told about the tips...they dont like them simply because that isnt the way we do things in the UK.

 

So I wouldnt lay all the blame at the door of the TAs....it is our different culture/different ways/different way we live and for so any people that is hard to digest or understand.

 

I will never ever tip upfront...no way. Thats not the way I was brought up or educated/trained in the hotel/tourism industry.

[kyriecat]

I don't think it's just UK TA's who don't mention the tips. I remember booking my first cruise 10 years ago using a TA near my house and not being told about tips. I was fortunate that I mentioned the trip to someone who had been on a cruise. He asked if I had budgeted enough for the gratuities. I had no idea. I called the TA and was then told "Oh, yes you need to bring some cash for that." Back then, it was cash in envelopes. That would have been embarassing to not have enough cash! Even 5 years ago when my parents booked their first cruise, the TA didn't mention bringing extra money for tips. I had to let them know about it. I booked a cruise last year through a TA for HAL, but nothing was mentioned about HAL automatically charging $11/day per guest for service fees to your onboard account. I knew from reading HAL's website, but it seem like the TA should have mentioned it since I told her it was my first cruise on HAL.

 

Having issues with tipping is not just a non-American problem. I know when I was in college and working as a waitress we had problems with members of one of the Christian denominations. There would be a group of 20-30 of them that would come in about every other Sunday after church. They were extremely demanding and would stay for at least 3 hours talking and allowing their kids to run freely. During that time, the servers were expected to keep them supplied with hot bread and drink refills. They would have a bill of between $400 and $600 dollars when they finished, but they would never leave a tip. When they came in, the waitresses working that section knew they would be working their butts off for free that day. When the group left, they almost always told the manager their service was good or excellent. Management eventually added a 15% service fee for parties over 10 to stop them from not tipping their servers. The group protested the fee because they claimed that tipping was considered a bribe and went against their religious beliefs. I know when I quit, the group was trying to claim religious discrimination against the restaurant. That restaurant is closed now but I don't know if that group had anything to do with it.

 

I don't know how many religious groups consider tipping to be a form of bribery and disallow it. Perhaps RC should change to "service fees" that are automatically added instead of "gratuities" like most hotels and other cruiselines.

[sidari]

Liz .... do you do MTD? or fixed time? .... after all RCI policy is if you book MTD then you have to pay up front!

 

How can a UK TA allow people to book MTD without going against the RCI policy?

 

Have to agree that if its charged and you have a genuine complaint then you go and complain, lets face it paid upfront for many means they do not have to worry about it and can if they so choose still pass on tips to people who have in their opinion given good service.

 

Despite arguements against pre paying for MTD if the staff know that a complaint leaves them open not to receive their portion of a customers pre paid tips they are not likely to put that at risk by being lazy.

[Cruzaholic41]

I have a question since this conversation seems to be mainly about our friends across the pond. This may sound snotty, but I ask this seriously. Are there any UK owned cruise lines? If so, how do they do it?

 

I ask because these mass-market lines, like RCI, are U.S. owned and that's the way we do things. I'm all for a better way, but it seems a little more tolerance should be shown by those from other cultures. I know that I have to be tolerant when traveling elsewhere.

[livylotte]

Firstly, we have always paid the recommended tips plus tipping extra. Anyone who works 7 days a week for 9 months deserves a good tip!

 

Maybe one of the reasons some UK pax won't give the tips is that they have paid over the odds for the cruise anyway :mad:. If the cruise companies are looking at this then perhaps they should think about charging the Brits the same for the cruise as the US passengers pay. On our last cruise (from and to the UK), the US passengers paid less for their holiday (including air) than we did :confused:. We don't have the benefit of refundable deposits either. When I raised this with one cruise company the reply was "... the US and the UK markets are different". What does that mean????

 

Yes, the markets are different I think.

 

Right now cruises from the UK may not be favourite with staff but for RCI they are a cash cow.

 

RCI charges more for it's cruises ex the UK compared to Caribbean cruises because they can. The market dictates the price and right now people are still booking at these higher prices. I recently sailed on Indy and we were packed in like sardines, I think we paid more for our 4 days in the Irish Sea than it costs for a week on the Caribbean. If no one was booking we'd start to see the prices going down I'm sure.

 

Independence is quite unique in the UK and UK people are still clamouring to sail on her. RCI has very little competition here and so at the moment they can charge us what they want. Look at the new admin fees - they charge us these because .... they can. RCI would never get away with it in the US. Will their monopoly continue? Will people still be prepared to pay high prices and accept added costs ... only time will tell. TBH I'm not sure increasing the price even higher to cover tips is the right way to go, RCI may find they've priced themselves out of the market.

 

Back to tipping... I just wanted to reiterate what the above posters have said ... I had a quote recently from a UK TA who didn't include gratuities. Although, I do have to add that the agent at RCI (when quoting for the same cruise) did give ask me if I wanted to prepay my grats or not - so not quite the same experience for me.

[Elizanessie]

Liz .... do you do MTD? or fixed time? .... after all RCI policy is if you book MTD then you have to pay up front!

 

No I wont do MTD...I will not pay upfront tips.

[ukcurmudgeon]

My wife and I are relative newcomers to cruising, but we spent 18 years living in countries around the world – most of them working and living with Americans. One small by-product of that is that we are at ease with US tipping culture – to us, it just plain makes sense.

Our first cruise was on Jewel of The Seas. Although sailing out of Harwich, a majority of the passengers were American. Staff service on that ship was universally outstanding - unfailingly cheerful, helpful, courteous, swift and efficient. It contributed in no small way to making our first cruise a happy and memorable one. But we (and other guests) tipped – over and above the mandatory gratuity added to the cost of our cruise.

It is just plain naive to believe that a mandatory ‘blanket’ gratuity will remove, or even reduce, the link between service and on-the-spot reward – it won’t. All that a mandatory blanket gratuity does is establish a new, higher baseline for the cost of a cruise.

People hold very different views on the subject of tipping, and some are more bothered by the issue than others. There isn’t a right or a wrong, but many years of living and working in a range of countries with very different social and commercial customs taught us to adjust to other peoples ways, not insist that others must adjust to ours.

If you want to sail with a US cruise ship, then surely it’s no more than common courtesy to adapt your behaviour to suit US social customs.

I would also add that our second cruise was on P&O Oceana. Gone were the tips, but gone, too, were the happy, good-fun pre-dinner sessions at the Champagne Bar. Gone were the frills, nibbles, chirpy chat, happy smiles, jokes and cocktail ceremony. Gone were the beaming waiters, extra portions and scuttling attention. All was just glum, dreary, grey and functional - a glass plonked down in front of you with some tired uninspired alcoholic liquid in it. A plate of food and eat it up. We tipped our ‘butler’ double (on a per day basis) what we tipped our Jewel stateroom attendant, and all we got was silent, ill-disguised disappointment. That attitude and ambience pervaded the ship, and was coupled with a quite breathtaking lack of training of customer service and excursion staff.

I, for one, would be deeply disappointed if I were to discover that the staff on Independence have been “Oceana’d”.

[Cruzaholic41]

If you want to sail with a US cruise ship, then surely it’s no more than common courtesy to adapt your behaviour to suit US social customs.

 

That's exactly what I was saying. Thank you for understanding.

[techwatcher]

Interesting thread.

 

Firstly let me say that I am from the UK and (when in the UK) I will tip when, and only when, I receive good service. When in the USA and on cruise ships I abide by the expected norms and tip accordingly.

 

I think part of the problem is in wording. In cruise documentation gratuities are 'customary', there are 'guidelines' and 'recommended' amounts. These words are not strong enough for some folks to indicate that they are expected and more or less mandatory. Also, given the current scenario, nothing will prevent people who don't want to tip from not tipping.

 

So, two possible solutions. One is to include gratuities in the cruise fare and be done with it. Second possibility is to have a non-refundable 'service charge' to cover the gratuities. It will have to be non-refundable to avoid legions of non-USA folks simply removing it.

 

We're then left with the issue of motivating staff who already know they will receive their gratuities no matter the standard of service they provide, but motivating staff is a management issue, is it not?

[luckyprincess]

Why do some of you insist on using the term "Gratuities" when referring to a simple fee or price increase. The Webster definition of "gratutity" says this term is something given voluntarily for service. I think the "voluntary" is somehow lost in current cruise lines pricing policies. The current policy would be like going into a clothing store and buying some clothes and than having 20% added to the cost for service. Or having a hotel add a charge such as "resort fees" which are simply a devious way to charge a higher price without actually showing that price in various marketing schemes. How about a mailman that charges you $10 every time he/she delivers the mail for "gratuities." We have been avid cruisrs for over 35 years and watched all the iterations of so-called cruise line tipping including terms like "no tipping required." Of course if a tip is required, than it is no longer a tip or gratuity. And now we are seeing all kinds of booking -incentives that include "pre-paid gratutities." So, when is a "gratutity" not a "gratutity" but rather just a gimick to market crusie fares that are not realistic.

 

Hank

The problem with your example is you aren't laying it out correctly. If you went in to a store to buy some clothes that would normally cost $20 then you would see that with this structure they now cost $12 (because the company doesn't have to pay the employee's full wage) and you then pay for the service charge with the total, thereby compensating the person that assisted you. In America, we decide how much to comepensate based on the total bill and how the service was. In lots of other places you don't get to decide how much to compensate because it is already included as a service charge. Either way, you are paying for it. It is a gratuity NOW because it isn't required. I have a feeling that will change.

However, you need to realize that if they were to 'pay a living wage' which everyone keeps saying, then that means the company raises prices (not just by the amount of the gratiuty because that is fluctuating) from ...what...$50 a month to $2000 a month? So if you think you pay a lot now I can only see that calculating to several hundreds of dollars more per person per cruise.

And I guarantee you that in most every market the employees are very happy with this structure, as it allows them to maximize their earnings, not just recieve a flat rate. It's obviously when people use their services without paying for them (remember, their pay is not included in your cruise price - which is why it's so low:rolleyes: even though I know you pay a lot more but it is lower when they aren't paying their employees the full wage) that they are getting upset, and deservedly so.

And by the way - I think mandatory pre paid gratiuties would solve the whole darn thing! And I would like to see it across the board so that we aren't discriminating against the fine people of Europe, Austraila, Asia, etc..

[luckyprincess]

Interesting thread.

 

Firstly let me say that I am from the UK and (when in the UK) I will tip when, and only when, I receive good service. When in the USA and on cruise ships I abide by the expected norms and tip accordingly.

 

I think part of the problem is in wording. In cruise documentation gratuities are 'customary', there are 'guidelines' and 'recommended' amounts. These words are not strong enough for some folks to indicate that they are expected and more or less mandatory. Also, given the current scenario, nothing will prevent people who don't want to tip from not tipping.

 

So, two possible solutions. One is to include gratuities in the cruise fare and be done with it. Second possibility is to have a non-refundable 'service charge' to cover the gratuities. It will have to be non-refundable to avoid legions of non-USA folks simply removing it.

 

We're then left with the issue of motivating staff who already know they will receive their gratuities no matter the standard of service they provide, but motivating staff is a management issue, is it not?

I so completely agree with you. And yes, the management will have to deal with the staff although I would motivate them by reminding them that many people (of ALL nationalities) will rightly tip more than their service charge for great service - so if they want to make more....give great service!