Baseball Caps in Dining Room

[babyher]

Ballcaps and scullies have become a fashion statement among the young. They feel it is a "look" they are putting together and are usually proud of their ensemble. It has become a part of their social norm as much as mini skirts were a part of mine when I was young.

 

If the cap / scullie wearer is among his friends, they won't see anthing wrong with what they're wearing and no warnings would be given within the group that their fashion statement would be inappropriate in certain venues. A parent or maitre d' would need to request the removal of the cap explaining it doesn't conform to the dress code in the MDR or Pinnacle.

 

When these young men go out at night to clubs, they dress in these same caps / scullies and are fashionably attired for the venue they are attending. It's a way of life and a social norm for these young men.

 

If you encounter a young man dressed in what he deems as acceptable attire for "going out on the town," but is not the same attire you would deem acceptable, perhaps you should just grin and say to yourself, "ahhhh....the younger generation. :) I remember when we did things like that and we thought we looked hip. It probably drove our parents / grandparents nuts."

 

My point is that some of these hat wearers aren't doing it maliciously, they're dressing in a manner they find acceptable and normal. This generational "changing of the current style" has been going on forever and will continue forever.

 

I agree that there are general social mores that should continue to be adhered to and the wearing of a ballcap or scullie in a fancy restaurant is for the most part (medical resasons aside) unacceptable. However, making a blanket assumption about a person who is wearing something other than the norm should not "scar" that person in your mind without knowing all the facts. The rush to judgment is acidic. A black and white attitude is even worse.

 

Acceptance and tolerance is what keeps socieity civil. And, it keeps people nonjudgemental...a very nast trait.

 

Very nicely said Di.

 

Having a 21 yr old and 2 teens myself , I can't even keep up with what is cool or hot or in or out or whatever terms they use these days.

 

An article or clothing that they MUST have for their birthdays in April are something the wouldn't be caught dead in by Christmas *LOL*

 

And you are right the kids aren't wearing the hat or the underwear sticking out of their pants or whatever to be disrespectful . They are doing it to fit in with their crowd. And that is important at that age.

 

As long as it isn't something way over the line, I let a lot go when it comes to their dress and such and as you said chalk it up to "The younger generation".

 

I agree that they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing or wearing because it is "the norm' for them.

 

True they don't know until they are told otherwise. And usually when they are told it is accompanied by some rant about their generation which is sure to turn them off.

 

We were all the same way once.

[gtexan]

The dress code of every ship Ive seen clearly says "No hats inside the main dining room" so I think its quite inappropriate to wear one inside the main dining room unless you have some medical or religious reason to do so. That said, Ive never seen a rule that says you can't wear a hat inside many of the other public rooms of the ships, so whats the big deal?

 

Ive noticed that theres a certain segment of our population that insists of enforcing their own personal "rules" on everyone else, despite those rules having little to no direct effect on their own life. For the life of me I can't figure out how wearing a hat inside someones house could be seen as a sign of disrespect. Wearing your pants so low that your underwear is showing? Sure. Wearing a shirt with something offensive written on it? Absolutely. But a hat? Really?

[babyher]

Not to offend, of course, but generally speaking, when I see a gentleman wearing a baseball cap whilst sitting in a restaurant or cafe, or coffee shop, I immediately think of the "differently challenged" young (and older) men that I know, from a group home in our area. They never remove their hats. So, I usually just make the assumption that such gentlemen are part of that demographic, and let it slide.

 

I do have one friend that never removes his cowboy hat. It's just pure cussedness on his part, however.

 

So because it is your friend , the fact he never takes his hat off is written off to being a" lovable old cuss"

 

But anyone else you see wearing a hat indoors , you chalk it up to mental retardation, or autism or fetal alcohol syndrome.

 

How insulting!!!! Not so much to the guy wearing the hat indoors , because he probably doesn't give a damn what you think. But to the people at that group home who truly don't know any better and can't help themselves.

 

What is really scary is that you really subscribe to that BS theory.

[RuthC]

Really :rolleyes:

 

Obviously you have never had a family member or a friend suffer from cancer or it's side affects.

Oh, how little you know.

[Tampa Girl]

Very nicely said Di.

 

Having a 21 yr old and 2 teens myself , I can't even keep up with what is cool or hot or in or out or whatever terms they use these days.

 

An article or clothing that they MUST have for their birthdays in April are something the wouldn't be caught dead in by Christmas *LOL*

 

And you are right the kids aren't wearing the hat or the underwear sticking out of their pants or whatever to be disrespectful . They are doing it to fit in with their crowd. And that is important at that age.

 

As long as it isn't something way over the line, I let a lot go when it comes to their dress and such and as you said chalk it up to "The younger generation".

 

I agree that they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing or wearing because it is "the norm' for them.

 

True they don't know until they are told otherwise. And usually when they are told it is accompanied by some rant about their generation which is sure to turn them off.

 

We were all the same way once.

 

Wrong! My generation did what their parents told them to do. And there were severe consequences if we didn't. If the parents don't set what is an acceptable "norm", how can you expect a child to do so?

[Copper10-8]

Ballcaps and scullies have become a fashion statement among the young. They feel it is a "look" they are putting together and are usually proud of their ensemble. It has become a part of their social norm as much as mini skirts were a part of mine when I was young.

 

If the cap / scullie wearer is among his friends, they won't see anthing wrong with what they're wearing and no warnings would be given within the group that their fashion statement would be inappropriate in certain venues. A parent or maitre d' would need to request the removal of the cap explaining it doesn't conform to the dress code in the MDR or Pinnacle.

 

When these young men go out at night to clubs, they dress in these same caps / scullies and are fashionably attired for the venue they are attending. It's a way of life and a social norm for these young men.

 

If you encounter a young man dressed in what he deems as acceptable attire for "going out on the town," but is not the same attire you would deem acceptable, perhaps you should just grin and say to yourself, "ahhhh....the younger generation. :) I remember when we did things like that and we thought we looked hip. It probably drove our parents / grandparents nuts."

 

My point is that some of these hat wearers aren't doing it maliciously, they're dressing in a manner they find acceptable and normal. This generational "changing of the current style" has been going on forever and will continue forever.

 

I agree that there are general social mores that should continue to be adhered to and the wearing of a ballcap or scullie in a fancy restaurant is for the most part (medical resasons aside) unacceptable. However, making a blanket assumption about a person who is wearing something other than the norm should not "scar" that person in your mind without knowing all the facts. The rush to judgment is acidic. A black and white attitude is even worse.

 

Acceptance and tolerance is what keeps socieity civil. And, it keeps people nonjudgemental...a very nast trait.

 

That's an excellent post, Di!:)

[Petronillus]

And you are right the kids aren't wearing the hat or the underwear sticking out of their pants or whatever to be disrespectful. They are doing it to fit in with their crowd. And that is important at that age.

I do agree that choosing your battles is part of the virtue of prudence.

I must take note, however, of the inconsistency exhibited in the above comment. If a kid of the same age encountered the above-described group of kids with their grungy, droopy, boxer-revealing jeans and backward-facing ballcaps, and the newcomer was wearing the preppy uniform (blue blazer, khaki pants, button-down shirt with a tie), he would likely be shunned as not fitting in. How we carry and clothe our bodies speaks volumes about who we are. Where standards are established (as on formal night and in the MDR), they ought to be enforced both formally (part of the office of the Maître d’Hôtel) and informally (raised eyebrows and other marks reacting to deviancy), precisely because the standards exist for the common good. If one does not know the standard, he/she thus learns. If one objects to the standard and chooses not to comply, then he/she ought to indulge the personal preference elsewhere -- such as in the Lido.

This is not a matter of how your food tastes. It's a matter of preserving the thin veneer of civilization that protects us -- all of us -- from the eruptions of barbarism.

[Sailorgirlseattle]

You're scaring me, people.

I'm going on my first cruise next week, and after reading the posts here for the past couple of weeks I'm convinced I'm going to find a ship full of people wearing bathrobes over their muumuus, with their baseball caps on - cigarettes in one hand, weng weng in the other. And they've spent so much effort giving extra tips to everybody all day, and fretting about open seating, that they're all in bed by 10pm.

I sure hope it's not really like that. . .

 

LMAO! No, it's not really like that! :rolleyes:

[Jemima]

The dress code of every ship Ive seen clearly says "No hats inside the main dining room" ...

 

HAL's dress code doesn't mention hats. It also doesn't mention jeans or evening footwear.

[G'ma]

Cruising hasn't been the same since the Clampetts struck oil.....that's for sure.

 

No manners, no common sense, no idea or concept of social graces...

 

Adults behaving like children.. - that's the parents fault.....

[babyher]

Wrong! My generation did what their parents told them to do. And there were severe consequences if we didn't. If the parents don't set what is an acceptable "norm", how can you expect a child to do so?

 

 

I was not talking about blatantly disobeying your parents or going against them.

 

I meant every generation had their fads and fashions and music that drove their parents nuts . but you know its a phase and a right of passage and you let them ride it out.

[madelinerose]

My generation did what their parents told them to do.

 

 

Yep, until they could move out. ;):D

[Tampa Girl]

Yep, until they could move out. ;):D

 

 

Yes, and as fast as we could! Come to think of it, maybe that's what today's parents should keep in mind - assuming they don't want their offspring living with them into middle age. ;)

[peaches from georgia]

Wrong! My generation did what their parents told them to do. And there were severe consequences if we didn't. If the parents don't set what is an acceptable "norm", how can you expect a child to do so?

How true. Unfortunately if parents don't teach their children manners, and more and more they don't, who is going to do it unless society enforces some standards of common courtesy. More and more you see father and son eating in restaurants, both with their caps on. I don't expect McDonalds to have an etiquette enforcer, but I do expect that a fine dining establishment such as HAL's MDR to quietly and politely ask those with baseball caps on to remove them. Maybe both father and son will learn some manners to take into the outside world. This has nothing to do with fashion or fad that all generations go through; it's manners and established common courtesy. My sons and grandsons wouldn't dare sit at a table with me with their baseball caps on and they wouldn't do it in public either.

[docksider21]

 

What's next, men who wear shoes with no socks !

 

 

 

Unlikely. Court rules require socks.

But according to the Judge, socklessness

occurrs on cruise ships. Or at least on Carnival.

 

http://www.semissourian.com/story/1164877.html

[Limeygirl]

I really think it is just the way people have been taught and how they have been raised than a generational thing. My Father in law (turning 70 this year) is a case in point....while he doesn't wear a baseball hat to Church, a formal dinner or a business meeting, (basically anywhere that requires a suit and tie) he has a ballcap on 99% of the time otherwise. I truly don't think he thinks he is being rude (and I'm not about to be rude and ask) Because he has grown up this way, my husband is the same way. I really think they were just never taught otherwise...my Husband's grandfather has a fedora on in every photo I've ever seen of him, indoors or out.

 

I grew up with a Dad and Grandfather who thought baseball hats were only for working outside or playing golf, so I really think it might be more of a cultural/area thing than generational.

[drcandon]

As a male that is starting to get follicular challenged, I appreciate that now I look semi- distinguished in a hat - thank goodness, I won't get sunburned on the top of my head. I wear a Tilley hat (looks like a "Aussie" - type hat - no offence to our Australian friends) and am happy to wear it almost constantly. In fact you probably won't see me without it. Yea, maybe that is vanity, but middle age is tough enough on males.

 

Personally, I hate the look of ball caps.

 

That aside, I would never ever, wear it into a semi-formal or formal dining room. Heck, I even take it off when I go into a fast food restaurant. It is just a matter of manners and the mores of the society we live in. However, I am not taking it off when I wander around a Walmart or even inside the ship. Well, that is not quite correct - on the formal nights, it is just good manners to remove it, as you wander around the ship.

 

And IMO, it is not about being taught, if you can't figure out for yourself what a reasonable set of manners are by observation, then you are being rude and in some ways just plain ornery...( I would like to use other words but risk getting flamed).

 

This is also not about comparison to other countries manners or mannerisms and trying to validate your behaviour. When you are in that country, then you obey their rules and observances as well, to do otherwise is a sign of disrespect.

 

True there are cultures that having headwear on for a formal dinner is acceptable and in some cases proper - for example a fez is considered a reasonable headpiece at dinner. It is all about your nationality and tradition.

 

Really, these are cruise ships sailing from North American ports - so the proper manners for this area of the world is simple - hats off. It may be archaic, but for now that is the way it is.. Google it to see for yourself

[yotefan37]

Please do not let me see any baseball caps in the MDR or pinnacle, you will be very embarrassed when I call the head waiter to remove it or remove you. And yes we understand they are worn for medical reasons, by the way we will be on the Zaandam.

 

I'm usually more of a lurker, but I am shocked by the insensitivity of this post.

 

My dear sweet nephew has severe epilepsy, and has been on and off several medications for the past three years. Some of the medicines have caused him to lose his hair in tufts, and it is a big embarrassment to him. Therefore, if you were on the Zuiderdam in late November, you may have seen my 15-year nephew in the MDR on formal nights wearing a suit - and a baseball cap.

 

My nephew was raised to be a well-mannered, kind person who respects others. He has dealt admiriably with medical issues that have caused him to be ridiculed at an age when he should be gaining his independance and sense of self. I believe any accomodations that can be made to make him more comfortable and confident are well worth it, and he deserves it.

 

I do hope, dear sir, that YOU would be very embarrassed to draw attention to such a situation and cause any person such discomfort without knowing the facts, medical condition or not.

 

Whenever I'm tempted to disapprove of any person for not meeting my definition of proper social mores, I try to remember that each of us has only the benefit of our own experiences, and many others are not nearly as blessed as I.

[Down-Unders]

I'm usually more of a lurker, but I am shocked by the insensitivity of this post.

 

My dear sweet nephew has severe epilepsy, and has been on and off several medications for the past three years. Some of the medicines have caused him to lose his hair in tufts, and it is a big embarrassment to him. Therefore, if you were on the Zuiderdam in late November, you may have seen my 15-year nephew in the MDR on formal nights wearing a suit - and a baseball cap.

 

My nephew was raised to be a well-mannered, kind person who respects others. He has dealt admiriably with medical issues that have caused him to be ridiculed at an age when he should be gaining his independance and sense of self. I believe any accomodations that can be made to make him more comfortable and confident are well worth it, and he deserves it.

 

I do hope, dear sir, that YOU would be very embarrassed to draw attention to such a situation and cause any person such discomfort without knowing the facts, medical condition or not.

 

Whenever I'm tempted to disapprove of any person for not meeting my definition of proper social mores, I try to remember that each of us has only the benefit of our own experiences, and many others are not nearly as blessed as I.

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply, any form of epilepsy is a terrible cross to bear for any family, we fully understand for many reasons people cover their heads especially cancer patients.

[RuthC]

This "medical reasons" portion of the discussion is merely a red herring. The etiquette rule has always been that except for medical or religious reasons, gentlemen do not wear a hat while indoors.

Most men who fail to remove their hat when indoors (and this is not limited to the younger generation) are not suffering from a medical condition that requires the hat remain on. Even fewer are doing it for religious reasons. Both are especially true while on a cruise.

[yotefan37]

This "medical reasons" portion of the discussion is merely a red herring. The etiquette rule has always been that except for medical or religious reasons, gentlemen do not wear a hat while indoors.

 

Most men who fail to remove their hat when indoors (and this is not limited to the younger generation) are not suffering from a medical condition that requires the hat remain on. Even fewer are doing it for religious reasons. Both are especially true while on a cruise.

 

I'm sure that is true.

 

I'm simply responding to the poster who stated "...you will be very embarrassed when I call the head waiter to remove it or remove you. And yes we understand they are worn for medical reasons..."

 

I find the idea that someone would intentionally embarrass anyone for not conforming to their idea of "proper manners" abhorrent.

 

Although we are all free to harshly judge others by how they present themselves (and from what I've read, several CC posters avail themselves of this), the kindest course of action is usually to turn a blind eye.

[Rutland Gate]

Cruising hasn't been the same since the Clampetts struck oil.....that's for sure.

 

No manners' date=' no common sense, no idea or concept of social graces...

 

Adults behaving like children.. - that's the parents fault.....[/quote']

 

Hear, Hear

[FrankNJ]

Well said! My husband is very fair-skinned had had several skin cancers removed from his face, head and neck areas. His oncologist has advised him to wear a hat or cap, in addition to sunscreen, whenever he goes out doors - most especially when he will be out in the sun. He does wear a cap or hat when onboard for those times he chooses to sit out on deck or walk on the promenade. He has never worn his cap in any of the dining room areas, nor has he worn it to the shows or any of the other 'indoor' activites. He carries it with him and dons it when necessary.

 

We have seen many, many people, including women, wearing hats, caps, sun visors, etc, throughout the ship and have never given it a thought.

 

Before criticizing so generally, perhaps a bit more thoughtfulness might be given to the fact that some folks have medical reasons for wearing a cap or hat. We cruised with a lovely lady last year who wore her hat everywhere, even into the MDR :eek:!! She was in remission from cancer, and had lost her hair due to her chemotherapy, and it had not yet mpletely grown back. This was her "Victory Cruise". I met her on the Susan Komen "Walk For The Cure" on HAL and she was one of the lovliest and most courageous people I have ever had the good fortune to encounter. And....all her hats were lovely!

 

Very Well Said ! I guess all you can do is tip your hat to one of these fashion snobs , and oh yeah , offer them a robe when they come out of the hot tub dripping !

[bulgargirl]

I'm sure that is true.

 

I'm simply responding to the poster who stated "...you will be very embarrassed when I call the head waiter to remove it or remove you. And yes we understand they are worn for medical reasons..."

 

I find the idea that someone would intentionally embarrass anyone for not conforming to their idea of "proper manners" abhorrent.

 

Although we are all free to harshly judge others by how they present themselves (and from what I've read, several CC posters avail themselves of this), the kindest course of action is usually to turn a blind eye.

 

Yotefan -

 

That's what I've been thinking reading some of the criticisms on different threads on the boards. I'm honestly worried that someone will feel it is his or her "duty" to "save me from embarrassing" myself with my bad or (in their opinion) inappropriate fashion choices by loudly and publicly remonstrating me.

 

I'm quaking in my boots picturing an older person with black socks pulled up to the knee and covered in a poly/cotton blend muumuu shaking their fingers at me and making me feel bad on my vacation!

[babyher]

Yotefan -

 

That's what I've been thinking reading some of the criticisms on different threads on the boards. I'm honestly worried that someone will feel it is his or her "duty" to "save me from embarrassing" myself with my bad or (in their opinion) inappropriate fashion choices by loudly and publicly remonstrating me.

 

I'm quaking in my boots picturing an older person with black socks pulled up to the knee and covered in a poly/cotton blend muumuu shaking their fingers at me and making me feel bad on my vacation!

 

Your chances of someone actually summoning the waiter and "having the hat removed or them removed" is pretty slim.

 

What is said here and what actually goes down on a real cruise can be two different things entirely.