is this a legal b2b cruise?

[S.S.Oceanlover]

wondering what others think. I say it's not legal.

 

first leg:depart LA Californinia with a stop in San Francisco and end in Vancouver.

 

Second leg starts in Vancouver, does Alaska and ends in Seattle, WA.

 

Bill

[eandj]

Explain "legal".

[S.S.Oceanlover]

legal:

 

PVSA:The Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (sometimes abbreviated to PVSA, Passenger Services Act, or PSA) is a piece of United States legislation which came into force in 1886 relating to cabotage. Essentially, it says:

 

No foreign vessels shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $200 (now $300) for each passenger so transported and landed.

 

Bill

[Pia1913]

wondering what others think. I say it's not legal.

 

first leg:depart LA Californinia with a stop in San Francisco and end in Vancouver.

 

Second leg starts in Vancouver, does Alaska and ends in Seattle, WA.

 

Bill

 

Jones Act, huh? If they book it it's legal. If you can't do it, they won't book it.

[Princess Patches]

wondering what others think. I say it's not legal.

 

first leg:depart LA Californinia with a stop in San Francisco and end in Vancouver.

 

Second leg starts in Vancouver, does Alaska and ends in Seattle, WA.

 

Bill

 

Assuming you are sailing on the same ship and you are arriving and departing Vancouver the same day, then you are correct, it would not be allowed under the act. That is because you are traveling between two different US cities (LA and Seattle) without stopping in a far foreign port. Vancouver is a near foreign port.

 

However, if you are sailing on two different ships or your stop in Vancouver is more than a day, it would not violate the act. If you change ships in Vancouver or stay more than the day in Vancouver than it is considered two different cruises and you would not be sailing between two US cities and therefore the PVSA would not apply.

 

The Jones Act refers to shipment of cargo between US cities and the PVSA refers to transport of passengers between US cities. Thus, it is the PVSA that is applicable to cruise ship passengers.

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Assuming you are sailing on the same ship and you are arriving and departing Vancouver the same day, then you are correct, it would not be allowed under the act. That is because you are traveling between two different US cities (LA and Seattle) without stopping in a far foreign port. Vancouver is a near foreign port. However, if you are sailing on two different ships or your stop in Vancouver is more than a day, it would not violate the act. If you change ships in Vancouver or stay more than the day in Vancouver than it is considered two different cruises and you would not be sailing between two US cities and therefore the PVSA would not apply.

 

The Jones Act refers to shipment of cargo between US cities and the PVSA refers to transport of passengers between US cities.

 

Yes it is the same ship or was since the cruise is already over.

 

It was on the Disney Wonder and just ended this past weekend.

 

I agree with you 100% but it seems Disney was allowed to do it.

 

I read all the time about Princess or HAL having to cancel 1 leg but apparently Disney did not.

 

Bill

[caribill]

I agree with you 100% but it seems Disney was allowed to do it.

 

 

It is not that Disney was allowed to do it, it is that Disney allowed it to be done.

 

If Disney is caught, they will be fined.

[S.S.Oceanlover]

It is not that Disney was allowed to do it, it is that Disney allowed it to be done.

 

If Disney is caught, they will be fined.

 

You are correct as the pax doing the b2b were calling DCL and questioning them about the legality of it and were told to just get off after the first cruise, go through customs and get back on and we'll give yo a different cabin #.

 

So they did know about it.

 

Bill

[fishywood]

You are correct as the pax doing the b2b were calling DCL and questioning them about the legality of it and were told to just get off after the first cruise, go through customs and get back on and we'll give yo a different cabin #.

 

You are required to go through customs on turnaround day even on permissable back-to-backs. If Disney thinks changing the cabin numbers means that ICE will not notice passengers with the same names, passport numbers and dates of birth on both manifests, they are living in Fantasyland.

[Princess Patches]

Are you sure Disney actually booked anyone back to back on those two cruises? Each of the cruises independently are fine under the act, but a back to back would clearly violate the act. A change in ship would make it two different cruises, but a change in cabin makes no difference. If this is true, Disney violated the PVSA.

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Are you sure Disney actually booked anyone back to back on those two cruises? Each of the cruises independently are fine under the act, but a back to back would clearly violate the act. A change in ship would make it two different cruises, but a change in cabin makes no difference. If this is true, Disney violated the PVSA.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1610893

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1566703

 

Bill

[Putterdude]

No, the cruise is not permitted under the PVSA. If going on beyond Vancouver on another ship that would be permitted but not on the same ship. Neither Vancouver or Victoria are considered a Distant Foreign Port under the PVSA.

[caribill]

You are required to go through customs on turnaround day even on permissable back-to-backs. If Disney thinks changing the cabin numbers means that ICE will not notice passengers with the same names, passport numbers and dates of birth on both manifests, they are living in Fantasyland.

 

But the customs agents do not know where the passenger will ultimately depart.

[jagoffee]

I am pleased to read that Disney is pushing the limits on this really stupid poliitical law/rule. After all you cannot get much more American based than the Disney Corporation. I would think that Disney creates more US jobs and pays more taxes than NCL and many other Corporations. Perhaps they have negotiated a compromise. I hope it is just a start.

 

I sometimes wonder which group of people are preventing the the elimination of this law and what benefit do they receive.

 

Keep up the pressure, Disney.

[ONT-CA]

No, the cruise is not permitted under the PVSA. If going on beyond Vancouver on another ship that would be permitted but not on the same ship. Neither Vancouver or Victoria are considered a Distant Foreign Port under the PVSA.

 

How distant they are may be in question but there is no question that they are foreign. If one can designate Ensenada Mexico as a distant foreign port then Vancouver, which is ten times the distance from LA as is Ensenada would certainly qualify IF of course you do not work for a federal government...

[beg3yrs]

If the fine isn't huge, maybe you just pay it ...

 

It could be incorporated in the cruise fare.

 

Just a thought ... Kind of like what a fraternity brother used to say before a big party, "I apologize in advance for whatever I might say or do tonight."

[caribill]

How distant they are may be in question but there is no question that they are foreign. If one can designate Ensenada Mexico as a distant foreign port then Vancouver, which is ten times the distance from LA as is Ensenada would certainly qualify IF of course you do not work for a federal government...

 

Ensenada is NOT classified as a distant foreign port. As Vancouver is, it is a near foreign port.

 

Cruises that start and end in the same US city only have top stop at a near foreign port. Both Ensenada and Vancouver qualify for this.

 

For a booking that has a passenger embark in one US city and disembark in another, the ship must call at a distant foreign port and these two cities do not qualify.

[CruisingJs]

How distant they are may be in question but there is no question that they are foreign. If one can designate Ensenada Mexico as a distant foreign port then Vancouver, which is ten times the distance from LA as is Ensenada would certainly qualify IF of course you do not work for a federal government...

 

Under my understanding of the law, Ensenada and Vancouver qualify as a near foreign port, but not a far foreign port. In a closed loop cruise (starting and ending in the same US city), a near foreign port satifies the requirement. But in an open loop cruise (starting and ending in different US cities), the ship must visit a far foreign port. I'm sure someone else can name the places that qualify as far foreign ports. The only one I know for sure is Aruba.

[RickEk]

By allowing these voyages, Disney has committed a crime and will be fined under the PVSA for each passenger allowed this itinerary. :(

[Putterdude]

As I read the PVSA the fine is $300 per pax.

[LARGIN]

As I read the PVSA the fine is $300 per pax.

 

Wondering if I turn Disney in to the Feds, will I get a reward?? :D:D

[Putterdude]

Wondering if I turn Disney in to the Feds, will I get a reward?? :D:D

 

There you go!

Maybe the fine was built into the fare.;)

[Princess Patches]

I'm sure someone else can name the places that qualify as far foreign ports. The only one I know for sure is Aruba.

 

Under the PVSA there are no far foreign ports in North America (Canada, US, Mexico), Central America, or the Caribbean except the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao).

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Under the PVSA there are no far foreign ports in North America (Canada, US, Mexico), Central America, or the Caribbean except the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao).

 

I get a sense of arrogance on Disneys part knowing in advance it was illegal and still did it.

 

They have quite a few lawyers and they must have run this past them.

 

Bill

 

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[reggierail]

I get a sense of arrogance on Disneys part knowing in advance it was illegal and still did it.

 

They have quite a few lawyers and they must have run this past them.

 

Bill

 

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

 

 

Carnival was also ignorant of the law but learned of it very quickly. I would imagine Disney being new to Alaska will also learn, hopefully not the hard way.