Jones Act for Dummies...like me =O

[Paul Bogle]

How does the Hawaii cruise work? It starts and ends in a US port, but doesn't go to a foreign land....

 

My vote for being confused....

 

Shawn

 

The one way Hawaii cruises either begin or end in Mexico or Canada. With Mexico Carnival either bused passengers from San Diego to Ensenada where they boarded the ship or from Ensenada to either the San Diego airport of LAX. On the Canadian end the cruises began or ended in Vancouver BC.

[gusandgidgetsmom]

When we cruised Alaska this last time the ocean was so rough we could not port in Victoria. Because of this act we had to (supposedly) anchor--or stop-- in the middle of the ocean in Canadian waters and have the authorities board the ship so they could consider it going to a foreign port. They did this to avoid the fine.We started our cruise in Seattle not in BC.

[big_duck]

A couple of minor points.

 

It is any passenger, not just US citizens.

If you miss your debarkation port (say Baltimore), you can not board at another US port.

It is voyage, not cruise. You can not B2B any trip that ends at a different US port e.g. LA to Victoria/Victoria to Seattle).

[AtSeaWithChris]

A couple of minor points.

 

It is any passenger, not just US citizens.

If you miss your debarkation port (say Baltimore), you can not board at another US port.

It is voyage, not cruise. You can not B2B any trip that ends at a different US port e.g. LA to Victoria/Victoria to Seattle).

Could you do it if you were willing to pay the 300$ penalty?

[S.S.Oceanlover]

Could you do it if you were willing to pay the 300$ penalty?

 

nope you can't knowingly violate the law unless you are Disney cruise line.

 

Bill

[DnD_Cruisin]

The one way Hawaii cruises either begin or end in Mexico or Canada. With Mexico Carnival either bused passengers from San Diego to Ensenada where they boarded the ship or from Ensenada to either the San Diego airport of LAX. On the Canadian end the cruises began or ended in Vancouver BC.

 

This is not true. I am booked on the Miracle Jan 14. We leave and return to LA. The Law only requires a stop at a foreign port. Hence the 3 hour stop in Ensenada MX

[S.S.Oceanlover]

This is not true. I am booked on the Miracle Jan 14. We leave and return to LA. The Law only requires a stop at a foreign port. Hence the 3 hour stop in Ensenada MX

 

If you take notice to Paul Bogle's post he said on the one way cruises to Hawaii not a round trip cruise to Hawaii.:)

 

Bill

[glrounds]

Minor nitpick: I think the law we are discussing is the Passenger Service Act, not the Jones Act. I think the Jones Act is something different.

 

EXACTLY, technically PVSA or Passenger Vehicle Services Act . . . one of the most misunderstood laws in cruising. Also, looking through most of these comments, its also one of the most misinformed laws.:rolleyes:

 

Its easily understood by most but where the problem enters is in the word "distant". For some reason, Ensenada, Mexico is a distant port (Hawaii cruises leaving San Diego use this all the time), yet Vancouver isn't considered a "distant" port from Seattle, this creates all kinds of problems with Alaskan cruisers going back-to-back to another cruise which leaves out of a different port. I would hope they've straightened this out by now as even Carnival was guilty of selling just such "technically illegal" back-to-back travel arrangements.

 

The law is an archaic one which was designed to protect American shipping and make it difficult for foreign-flagged vessels to do business here. That certainly didn't work out, as most "protective" legislation seldom does. :D

 

If I've gotten all this wrong, I'm sure we'll all hear about it. :D

 

[H82seaUgo]

Does it exist? I just don't get it, lol.

 

Looking to book a back to back at some point and I don't want it to not work.

 

i assume you are more concerned with the passenger services act, and not so concerned with cargo.

 

it's a double edged sword. some people complain about it under certain conditions, and almost backfired on ncla when they were fighting it, but it really keeps all those foreign vessels from coming in and transporting people from one port to another.

 

imagine the amount of cheap cruisers now looking for the lowest price being scooped up by some of the capital rich countries ships for a cruise, using cheap labor and cheap everything, siphoning off all the carnival cruisers.

 

wouldn't be a pretty sight.

[Paul Bogle]

EXACTLY, technically PVSA or Passenger Vehicle Services Act . . . one of the most misunderstood laws in cruising. Also, looking through most of these comments, its also one of the most misinformed laws.:rolleyes:

 

Its easily understood by most but where the problem enters is in the word "distant". For some reason, Ensenada, Mexico is a distant port (Hawaii cruises leaving San Diego use this all the time), yet Vancouver isn't considered a "distant" port from Seattle, this creates all kinds of problems with Alaskan cruisers going back-to-back to another cruise which leaves out of a different port. I would hope they've straightened this out by now as even Carnival was guilty of selling just such "technically illegal" back-to-back travel arrangements.

 

The law is an archaic one which was designed to protect American shipping and make it difficult for foreign-flagged vessels to do business here. That certainly didn't work out, as most "protective" legislation seldom does. :D

 

If I've gotten all this wrong, I'm sure we'll all hear about it. :D

 

 

Ensenada isn't a distant foreign port for purposes of the PVSA, it's a near foreign port. Hawaiian cruises use it in two different fashions; one way cruises either begin or end there, round-trip cruises which do not need a distant port call just make a regular stop.

 

Under the PVSA a "distant" foreign port is one located outside the North American Continent and the islands associated with that land mass. Trans-canal cruises stop in Aruba, Curacao or Bonaire because these islands are considered part of the South American land mass and thus "distant". Cartagena Columbia is another.

[Bunkie103]

The Conquest final cruise leaves Galveston and ends in San Juan and then the ship sails to Miami. Some of the questions have been generated because people are interested in that B2B, but Carnival has told them you can't book it that way.

[big_duck]

This is not true. I am booked on the Miracle Jan 14. We leave and return to LA. The Law only requires a stop at a foreign port. Hence the 3 hour stop in Ensenada MX

 

Closed loop cruises don't require a stop anywhere. As long as the passenger embarks and debarks at the same port no law has been violated. If a passenger debarked in any of the Hawaii ports then the law is violated regardless of the ship stopping in Ensenada. I don't know why the 3hr stop in Ensenada. It isn't a "far distant" port so isn't valid for the Jones act anyway.

[Paul Bogle]

The Conquest final cruise leaves Galveston and ends in San Juan and then the ship sails to Miami. Some of the questions have been generated because people are interested in that B2B, but Carnival has told them you can't book it that way.

 

Puerto Rico is exempt from the PVSA as long as no domestic shipping company is offering service between the island and the 50 states. The USVI, Guam and American Samoa are not subject to the act at all.

[joeandaimeesmom]

A cruise line cant take a american citzen from one usa port to another usa port without stopping at a distant foreign port.. its a old law prolly outdated but hey I dont make the laws i just vote for the idiots who do..

 

 

 

So true..

[DnD_Cruisin]

Closed loop cruises don't require a stop anywhere. As long as the passenger embarks and debarks at the same port no law has been violated. If a passenger debarked in any of the Hawaii ports then the law is violated regardless of the ship stopping in Ensenada. I don't know why the 3hr stop in Ensenada. It isn't a "far distant" port so isn't valid for the Jones act anyway.

 

There is a mixup on near and distant foreign ports with your understanding of the law. Take my cruise for example: 15 days LA closed loop w/a stop in ensenada. The law reads that even if a passenger embarks for a minute in HI and returns to the ship then returns to LA...The cruise line is in violation. In order to avoid the violation they only need stop at any foreign port near or far. See http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/trade/legal/informed_compliance_pubs/pvsa_icp.ctt/pvsa_icp.pdf and refer to section

Coastwise transportation of passengers—19 CFR § 4.80a for this example.

 

Where far port comes into play is if a passennger departs from Miami and goes to LA through the canal. The ship HAS to stop at a far port in order to avoid violating the law.

[mitsguy2001]

[quote name='big_duck']Closed loop cruises don't require a stop anywhere. As long as the passenger embarks and debarks at the same port no law has been violated. If a passenger debarked in any of the Hawaii ports then the law is violated regardless of the ship stopping in Ensenada. I don't know why the 3hr stop in Ensenada. It isn't a "far distant" port so isn't valid for the Jones act anyway.[/quote]

A closed loop cruise still requires a stop at a foreign port (not necessarily a distant foreign port).

[hello]

"Aruba Bonaire Curacao"

You see ... I still haven't gotten it right!!

[richkinkade]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]For PVSA purposes, there are at least 4 types of cruises (for foreign flagged vessels).[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]1. Cruises to nowhere. Leave a port and return without visiting any port. This is allowable and no stops in any ports are required.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]2. Cruises that either begin or end in a foreign port. This is also allowable. You cannot, however, pick up a passenger along the way in one US port and deposit him in another, or let a passenger who embarked in one US port debark in another US port.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]3. Closed loop cruises. This is allowable. If you visit a US port along the way, you must also visit a foreign port, but it doesn't have to be distant.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]4. Cruises that begin in one US port and end in another. The cruise must visit a DISTANT foreign port. That means a port other than Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas or the Caribbean. The distant ports closest to the US are the islands of Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. That is why the ship stops at one of these islands if it is repositioning from the West coast to the East coast or from Florida to a port farther north.[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=3] [/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]The US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico, for purposes of these rules, although US territory, are considered foreign ports. That would change if a US-flagged vessel ran a ferry service to the mainland, but there is no such ferry.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[k2excursion]

OP, I'll try to simplify it here. When considering a B2B, you need to see where the 1st cruise begins & where the 2nd cruise ends. If those are 2 different US ports, without a stop in what is basically a South American port, you cannot do that.

One example of this would be: 1st leg of a B2B--Alaskan cruise from Seattle to Vancouver. This alone is allowable. 2nd leg of the B2B--one way Hawaii cruise from Vancouver to Hawaii. This alone is allowable. Both being done back-to-back would not be allowed, because it starts in Seattle & ends in Hawaii. Even if you switched ships & cruiselines in Vancouver, it still wouldn't be allowed. It's completely stupid and pointless, but that's just how the law works.

[Maxiecat3]

[quote name='k2excursion']OP, I'll try to simplify it here. When considering a B2B, you need to see where the 1st cruise begins & where the 2nd cruise ends. If those are 2 different US ports, without a stop in what is basically a South American port, you cannot do that.

One example of this would be: 1st leg of a B2B--Alaskan cruise from Seattle to Vancouver. This alone is allowable. 2nd leg of the B2B--one way Hawaii cruise from Vancouver to Hawaii. This alone is allowable. Both being done back-to-back would not be allowed, because it starts in Seattle & ends in Hawaii. [B][U]Even if you switched ships & cruiselines in Vancouver, it still wouldn't be allowed.[/U][/B] It's completely stupid and pointless, but that's just how the law works.[/quote]

The bolded part of your post is wrong. There are 100's of posts on this site from people that would show you that changing ships/lines is the only way to be able to do these types of B2B. Same thing applies to repo cruises from CA to the Alaskan season.

Gregg

[btownsend]

When I sailed on the Fantasy, our three day cruies turned into a four day and Port Canaveral was closed due to a hurricane so we had to disembrak at Port Everglades instead. They bused us back to Port Canaveral and we went thru customs there. We did stop in Nassau foe a couple of hours but if that was not the case would this been a violation???

[H82seaUgo]

[quote name='btownsend']When I sailed on the Fantasy, our three day cruies turned into a four day and Port Canaveral was closed due to a hurricane so we had to disembrak at Port Everglades instead. They bused us back to Port Canaveral and we went thru customs there. We did stop in Nassau foe a couple of hours but if that was not the case would this been a violation???[/QUOTE]

they do give waivers.

i'm pretty sure they gave one for the returning round trip hawaii cruise back in april.

[crusinpsychRN]

[quote name='nybumpkin']The way it works is that you cannot start in one US port and finish in another US port without stopping at some "distant" foreign port. The Panama canal cruises when the ships reposition from East to West Coast are okay because they include a stop at such a port. On closed-loop cruises (same port to start and end), the distant foreign port isn't required, and you can stop at a US port on the itinerary - as long as there is a foreign port (doesn't have to be distant) as one of the stops.[/quote]

Thank you! Finally someone says it in English!

[JaniceB]

I think distant is the key word to remember when it isn't a closed loop cruise. I found this out when I wanted to cruise from San Diego to Vancouver and then on to Alaska to end in Seattle.

[nybumpkin]

[quote name='crusinpsychRN']Thank you! Finally someone says it in English![/quote]I'm glad my law school course in Admiralty Law 28 years ago paid off!