Hope NCL does'nt follow suit ? yuk

[Another ship trip]

Not sure I get your argument since one minute you say a business should be able to do what it wants then you slam Carnival for doing what wants.

 

And honestly Saturn's problems had little to do with its one price structure and more to do with a bad product line.

 

I was referring to the travel agents who will now have no freedom to rebate a portion of their commission in order to gain more business and please passengers. I don't think Carnival should get in the middle and tell agents what they must do with their commission. Carnival is still getting the same money whether or not a TA rebates.

Ultimately Carnival can do what it wants. I think there will be creative ways around this new rule though.

But I disagree vehemently that every cruise passenger must pay the same price for the same cruise. Let's all pay more and everyone can be happy, (ie Carnival and the big TA outfits that never discount.) The pax get the short end of this stick.

[mizLORInj]

I was referring to the travel agents who will now have no freedom to rebate a portion of their commission in order to gain more business and please passengers. I don't think Carnival should get in the middle and tell agents what they must do with their commission. Carnival is still getting the same money whether or not a TA rebates.

 

Agreed! It should not matter to Carnival if I book with a TA who gives me a nice OBC as long as I'm sailing on their ship.

I hope NCL does not start this practice of restricting OBC.

I'm wondering if perhaps other lines will see an influx of cruisers who are abandoning Carnival due to this new (crappy) policy.

One other thing; a TA's OBC can be used toward gratuities on NCL. Ours did this past April.

[Cloudyrain]

For me it doesn't matter because a Swedish TA doesn't give me anything anyway. Maybe the prices on things on board will be lower if not lots of people have gigantic OBC's to spend?

 

Totally agree for the UK - I spent months researching, and have never seen anything about OBC. In fact when i saw a post about people getting huge OBCs I was a but disappointed that nothing like this is offered in the UK to UK passengers!

 

In reality these huge OBC offers are paid for (albeit indirectly) by people who are paying for a cruise. Im sure we would all prefer a cheaper holiday than some people getting 100s dollars OBCs, and other people paying more for their holiday to subsidize it. We all know that lots of discount offers are manipulated, it just makes us feel better, but they should be the same across the board.

[Mooder]

Totally agree for the UK - I spent months researching, and have never seen anything about OBC. In fact when i saw a post about people getting huge OBCs I was a but disappointed that nothing like this is offered in the UK to UK passengers!

 

In reality these huge OBC offers are paid for (albeit indirectly) by people who are paying for a cruise. Im sure we would all prefer a cheaper holiday than some people getting 100s dollars OBCs, and other people paying more for their holiday to subsidize it. We all know that lots of discount offers are manipulated, it just makes us feel better, but they should be the same across the board.

 

 

If the OBC is coming from a TA, which is what is being discussed here, it is not being paid for by other cruisers. It is coming out of the TA's profit. NCL receives the fare and pays the TA a pre-negotiated commission -- what the TA does with that commission should be the TA's concern. Unless you want the cruise lines to stop paying commissions entirely, it doesn't affect the bottom line or the cost for other cruisers.

 

NCL no longer allows the TAs to offer large OBCs. When I first started using my TA the offerings were much larger and could be bargained because they were coming out of the TA's commission. It was up to them how much profit margin they wanted to hold onto. Since NCL put a limit on it a year or two ago, the OBCs aren't so impressive, but is always about 10% of the cruise fare. Now Carnival has taken the next step and no longer allowing even that. They might as well say we don't want TAs representing the cruiseline.

 

I sympathize with those unable to receive the offerings because of where they live. But it doesn't change my view on what the TAs ought to be able to do to stay competitive.

[thebooler]

Why? Don't use the "fair" word as that is another word for lack of imagination, and is the argument of the weak.

Our country was built on competition in the free enterprise system and I say do what you can to be successful.

Everyone should work his or her best deal. Travel agents or any business should be able to control how they market a product. They can also decide to do what Carnival is apparently doing. NO price changes at all. Worked well for Saturn, huh?

 

Thank goodness that is only a handful of businesses that market that way. Apple gets away with it but even designer lines have "factory stores" that discount their goods.

 

I, for one, am glad we have choices!

 

Yep, everyone should work his or her best deal.

 

And it looks like that's exactly what some cruise companies are now doing.

 

Glad we agree.

[katiepe]

Just wanted to add my two cents..

this new policy does not mean booking with a Travel Agent will cost you any more than booking direct..it just means that you wont get any extra perks from the Agent.. in other words nothing more(or less) than you would get if you booked with Carnival.

[Motorcycle Gma]

...and they have less bookings!! I know I'll be thinking less of booking with them! Aren't they in bad enough shape already because of the Costa deal in Italy?

 

I think it is a shame what they are doing. TA's provide a good service and I appreciate using a good agent. I always shop around and find the best agent and perks.

[Mooder]

As I read the policy what is really bothering me is the prohibition against perks that have nothing to do with the cruiseline, such as airfare and hotel rooms. Carnival shouldn't be allowed to interfere with that business.

[rvsullivan]

It only affects the TA's if those that use them quit. If you really like your TA, or they provide great one on one service, they should be able to maintain their business. I think the reality is, most that use the TA's aren't using them because they like them or they get great service, I think they use them to get some financial reward. This could actually be good for the TA's, if their LOYAL customers stay with them, they will make more money than in the past. A win, win for everyone. I talked to a cruise specialist TA last week and after about 15 minutes, it was clear I knew far more than they did. I will continue to book with NCL direct. To each his/her own.:D

[hondorner]

Betcha $5 to a Nickle the agents just find a new way to get around this, probably by rebating a portion of the fare after final payment and after commissions are paid, either just before the cruise or after you return home. Several agents already do this when handling other cruise lines with prohibitions.

[sverigecruiser]

If the OBC is coming from a TA, which is what is being discussed here, it is not being paid for by other cruisers. It is coming out of the TA's profit. NCL receives the fare and pays the TA a pre-negotiated commission -- what the TA does with that commission should be the TA's concern. Unless you want the cruise lines to stop paying commissions entirely, it doesn't affect the bottom line or the cost for other cruisers.

 

If NCL know/think that many TA's use some of their commission to give away OBC they might give the TA's a higher commission because they know that some of the money will come back to them when people spend more on the cruise. If that's the case, it is paid for by other cruisers.

 

If many have a big OBC the cruiseline might also adjust the prices for everything on the cruise and that means that everyone have to pay more for things they buy on the ship, even those without a big OBC.

[sverigecruiser]

NCL no longer allows the TAs to offer large OBCs. When I first started using my TA the offerings were much larger and could be bargained because they were coming out of the TA's commission. It was up to them how much profit margin they wanted to hold onto. Since NCL put a limit on it a year or two ago, the OBCs aren't so impressive, but is always about 10% of the cruise fare. Now Carnival has taken the next step and no longer allowing even that. They might as well say we don't want TAs representing the cruiseline.

 

Can you explain this for me? What is about 10% of the cruisefare? For me it sounds like the OBC you get from your TA is about 10% of the cruisefare but that can't be correct, right? (If that is correct, my Epiccruise should give me $600 and that's not a large OBC, it's a GIGANTIC OBC!)

[sverigecruiser]

It only affects the TA's if those that use them quit. If you really like your TA, or they provide great one on one service, they should be able to maintain their business. I think the reality is, most that use the TA's aren't using them because they like them or they get great service, I think they use them to get some financial reward. This could actually be good for the TA's, if their LOYAL customers stay with them, they will make more money than in the past. A win, win for everyone. I talked to a cruise specialist TA last week and after about 15 minutes, it was clear I knew far more than they did. I will continue to book with NCL direct. To each his/her own.:D

 

I use a TA for the service and the benefits of booking everything at the same place. I can book everything cheaper online and I know much more about cruising, especially with NCL, than my TA but I still prefer to use a TA.

[Single Cruiser]

Totally agree for the UK - I spent months researching, and have never seen anything about OBC. In fact when i saw a post about people getting huge OBCs I was a but disappointed that nothing like this is offered in the UK to UK passengers!

 

In reality these huge OBC offers are paid for (albeit indirectly) by people who are paying for a cruise. Im sure we would all prefer a cheaper holiday than some people getting 100s dollars OBCs, and other people paying more for their holiday to subsidize it. We all know that lots of discount offers are manipulated, it just makes us feel better, but they should be the same across the board.

 

I used to book direct but with NCL the best prices offered were with my Travel Agent. OK it might be only £50/£100 cheaper but have also been offered OBC the last two times.

 

Two sources for OBC, one via Latitudes level for certain cruises and the other taken from the TAs profit margin. I even challenged my personal cruise consultant to match my TAs price and he said he couldn't!

[mitsugirly]

I think the reality is, most that use the TA's aren't using them because they like them or they get great service, I think they use them to get some financial reward.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. I know that I've booked my previous cruises over the last few years with a TA MAINLY because of what they can offer. I mean why book with the cruise line directly and get nothing (but maybe a special they are offering at the moment or a small latitudes OBC) when I can go to an online TA who is going to offer me 5-6 times the amount the cruise line would offer (plus you still get the latitude OBC). Who doesn't want to save money?

 

I have also booked with a TA several times that I didn't like or I had to do all the "foot work" for my cruise...just because the OBC was hard to beat. Add in the "group" bookings and you've actually saved yourself a lot of $$ that can be spent on the cruise itself.

 

I will really hate if NCL goes to this policy. It will put a lot of TA's out of business and may even reduce our desire to cruise as offer too. :(

[bonvoyagie]

It seems that not too long ago, you could not book a cruise online (esp NCL) everything went through your local TA. To me it appears that the cruise lines are wanting their cake and eat it too. But they do own the product - the cruise - and want to control the value of that product. They do not like it when the street value of their product is reduced by discounters. They also don't seem to care if you book the cruise directly with one of their inside agents or one of their outside agents - they just want the playing field leveled. I used to work in sales at a major electronics company. We had a mix of distributers, reps, and our own sales force, we also had our own catalog sales dept. In the beginning we had nothing but trouble trying to keep the channels from overlapping. They eventually got rid of the catalog sales (it competed with the dist), developed products for dist only and put reps in territories where it did not make sense to have a full time salesperson. The dists bought products at MSRP less a discount and were expected to sell the product at MSRP - but if they did discount it came out of their profit. The company sales force was paid a salary plus commission and had an expense account, and finally the reps got a flat % commission on what they sold.

Cruise lines do not have dists - only inside sales (PCCs)who get a base + commission and reps (agents) who get a flat % on what they sell. BTW our reps did not have any discounting authority unless it fell into a quanity or special purchase agreement discount under our company guidlines. The cruise lines control their agents by either accepting their bookings or not.

Sometimes the undercutting done by some agents does not result in a NEW sale - but simply a rebooking of a cruise already booked through another agency. Now the cruise line is not really out any $$ it is out the amount of time and $ to rebook a cruise. Just imagine how much that adds up to for a single cruise - now multiply that by the number of cruises and you can see why the cruise line does not want to spend its time doing rebooking - they want to sell new cabins.

Good TAs should be proactive - not reactive. It is their job to promote the lines they represent - and be able to discuss the value points with prospective cruisers and assist them in finding the right cruise.

I am sure that the discounters will figure out a way to get around the restrictions the Carnival has now imposed on them. Like others have pointed out - the dealings will become even more covert and may not happen until after the cruise.

[cdnsteelman]

So a few points.

 

1. NCL collects "commission" on cruises booked directly - it's built in to the price. Every booking not made directly through NCL costs them that "commission". Ever noticed in the "same price" scheme recently announced that what NCL offers directly and what mainstream TAs offer are identical in price yet the TA is making something on selling the cruise (sometimes up to 20%!). I understand "some" of that "commission" goes to inside sales but you'd be foolish to assume that none of it finds its way into the general accounts.

 

2. I expect Carnival does the same.

 

3. People are throwing the "fair" word around a lot. So if it's about fairness then drop the commission portion of the cruise fare and make everyone book directly at the reduced rate.

 

4. What this is about for Carnival (any any other cruise line that adopts this approach) is increasing their profit margain by keeping all of the "commission" for themselves.

 

5. This will appeal to those who don't shop around for the best price and think uniform pricing is best or "fair"...the same widget should cost the same amount regardless of where you buy it or who you buy it from.

 

6. This will not appeal to those who believe competition is good from the perspective of the consumer... retailers (like TAs) have a profit margain to play with and they should be able to use it how they want including sharing it with customers to create business and loyalty.

 

7. If you think TAs offering OBC costs the crusie lines anything you don't understand how it works. The TAs pay the cruise lines that amount of money on your behalf. There are other OBC sources that cruise lines negotiate with partners (like AMEX) that do not get picked up 1 for 1 on the general legder but are agreed by the cruise line and the partner as business development tools.

 

8. If you don't think using a TA can save you substantial amounts on a NCL cruise then you're mistaken. I just saved 15% (US $1,400) off a direct NCL quote on a suite for my next cruise with very little effort. I guarantee you the NCL rate would not have been $1,400 lower if they had implemented a similar plan as what Carnival was proposing.

 

9. The TA tables have turned from the days of knowledgeable guidance providers to price and convenience options (obviously both models still exist but far more do the latter these days).

 

10. Carnival (and any other business) can do what it wants within the bounds of the law. Consumers will make decisions to patronize based on an array of inputs including pricing strategies.

[Mooder]

[quote name='sverigecruiser']Can you explain this for me? What is about 10% of the cruisefare? For me it sounds like the OBC you get from your TA is about 10% of the cruisefare but that can't be correct, right? (If that is correct, my Epiccruise should give me $600 and that's not a large OBC, it's a GIGANTIC OBC!)[/QUOTE]

That's right, about 10% of the cruisefare in OBC. For my Breakaway cruise to Bermuda last year, we are paying $4,258 plus taxes. We received $425 OBC from the travel agent. He used to be able to offer me discounted prices, but since the NCL policy changed, he gives OBC instead. Not as good as it used to be, but very nice. Certainly better than a tote bag. ;)

[mpk218]

[quote name='sverigecruiser']Can you explain this for me? What is about 10% of the cruisefare? For me it sounds like the OBC you get from your TA is about 10% of the cruisefare but that can't be correct, right? (If that is correct, my Epiccruise should give me $600 and that's not a large OBC, it's a GIGANTIC OBC!)[/QUOTE]

Yep its correct . My last OBC was $ 750.. ;)

[sverigecruiser]

[quote name='Mooder']That's right, about 10% of the cruisefare in OBC. For my Breakaway cruise to Bermuda last year, we are paying $4,258 plus taxes. We received $425 OBC from the travel agent. He used to be able to offer me discounted prices, but since the NCL policy changed, he gives OBC instead. Not as good as it used to be, but very nice. Certainly better than a tote bag. ;)[/quote]

If it's common that americans booking from a TA get that kind of OBC it must raise the prices for everything on the ship. If lots of people get $500-700 in OBC NCL know that they will spend lots of money on the cruise and they can set the prices after that. That means that those not getting any OBC have to pay more.

I'm now really want NCL to do what Carnival does!!!

[sverigecruiser]

[quote name='mpk218']Yep its correct . My last OBC was $ 750.. ;)[/quote]

So your TA give you a free bottle of Champagne every day! I want that too!

[Mooder]

[quote name='sverigecruiser']If it's common that americans booking from a TA get that kind of OBC it must raise the prices for everything on the ship. If lots of people get $500-700 in OBC NCL know that they will spend lots of money on the cruise and they can set the prices after that. That means that those not getting any OBC have to pay more.

I'm now really want NCL to do what Carnival does!!![/QUOTE]

I don't know how common it is and lots of things affect sales on the ship. We buy less than a lot of people who had no OBC so I'm not sure I follow the logic. But they must have their reasons, so maybe you're right. Believe me I was happier when the perk from the TA came in the form of a reduced price, but NCL won't allow that anymore.

And did I miss it or has no one addressed my issue with Carnival prohibiting perks like reduced air fare or hotel stays. Why should a cruise line be able to interfere with that business offer? It isn't their product.

[che5904]

[quote name='sverigecruiser']If it's common that americans booking from a TA get that kind of OBC it must raise the prices for everything on the ship. If lots of people get $500-700 in OBC NCL know that they will spend lots of money on the cruise and they can set the prices after that. That means that those not getting any OBC have to pay more.

I'm now really want NCL to do what Carnival does!!![/quote]

I'm sorry but I'm really not following the logic of anyone how the OBC that the TAs give is raising the price of anything. There may be some logic there if the OBC is coming from NCL but if it is coming from a TA that OBC would be purchased by the TA therefore NCL would be getting their money regardless to whether the TA pre-purchased OBC or i pre-purchased OBC through the bon voyage package. Because I have OBC does not mean I get anything cheaper, it just means I pay less out of pocket at the end. And certainly the cruiseships are not going to raise prices to meet a few that have higher amounts of OBC.

[bonvoyagie]

I agree that the cruise lines should not be concerned what their independent agents do with their commissions - as long as they bring in NEW bookings and not re-bookings (ie stealing from other agents or even the PCCs).

As for the cost of sales I think you will find that paying salary, benefits, and a small commission to a PCC is about the same as a flat rate % to the agent. Even the structure of a self help website has its costs in development and upkeep.

NCL offers OBC in instances where they can also benefit - booking 9 mos in advance and paying the full deposit for a suite (which is higher than a normal room) allows them to bank the money and earn more interest on it.

[travelerpair]

As with the airlines once the commissions and travel agents went the fees started. Let us count some of them. A seat, a checked bag, a snack, an agent reservation. Cruises have already begun to charge for many extras, unless you book a truly all inclusive. When they start to reduce the distribution of the product the price will go up. Personally I always do a price check. Why would you pay more for the same product from the owners? I appreciate the extra money to spend for ME! I do not think I should have to pay for the bad decision of building too many new large ships in a world economic downturn. Or are we going to pay to Carnival Corp. the price of Costa's law suits? :(