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jaguarstyper

HAL is starting to lose me

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I totally agree. Things change. You either need to accept it or move on. People say "well we used to get this or that". Yes, you used to get it and now you don't. If you have had a life without change you are very lucky. It seems to me the people that complain the most are the ones that pay the least.
Wow, so now if we lament about something we're cheapskates? LOL Yes, change does happen and we all react to it in our own way. When things change for the bad, I resist the change perhaps to the point of avoiding the change altogether. When they change for the good, I embrace the change. Fortunately, in life, there is always an alternative when things change in a way that you don't like. You don't have to just deal with it.

 

And sometimes, you just need to complain about it a little bit. It has nothing to do with how much you pay for it. :rolleyes:

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I totally agree. Things change. You either need to accept it or move on. People say "well we used to get this or that". Yes, you used to get it and now you don't. If you have had a life without change you are very lucky. It seems to me the people that complain the most are the ones that pay the least.

 

Seems to me, that those who pay the most, complain the most.:rolleyes: Perspective is a bit fickle.

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.........but I have to ask the question, where are you going because the other mid priced cruise lines are doing the same thing. I like to read the other boards just to understand what is going on within the other lines. Unless your willing to upgrade to the more expensive all inclusive lines, I think your walking yourself from one frying pan to another. Just my opinion.

 

This :) Exactly what I was thinking.

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Seems to me, that those who pay the most, complain the most.:rolleyes: Perspective is a bit fickle.

 

In reality, I really don't know what anyone other than myself pays. It really appears that those who have been cruising the longest have the most beefs, which is natural since those who haven't had, don't miss.

 

That is what the cruiselines are really hoping for, new blood.

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I understand that prices, relatively speaking, for cruises are cheaper now than they used to be. (How could I not, it is brought up in virtually every argument about cruise lines cutting costs? :rolleyes:)

 

But is that really a good thing? WHY should cruises be cheaper now than they used to be? I would settle for them being the same price (adjusted for inflation) as they used to be and including the same levels of service. After all, I only have so much vacation time -- it's not like I could take double the number of trips in a year if they cost half as much.

 

The prevailing mentality seems to be "Well, why should I pay for services I do not use?"

 

But I submit that one of the most pleasant things about the way cruising USED to be is that you didn't have to think about what you did or didn't utilize, and -- because it was all included -- you MIGHT be tempted to try something that you wouldn't ordinarily. Maybe you would use the sauna area or thalassotherapy pool (or whatever it's called). Maybe you don't ordinarily have a cappuccino in the morning, but you might try one and enjoy it because it was included.

 

The point is that you felt pampered. If you wanted to do or try something, the answer wasn't "That will be $3.50 extra," or "I'll see if I can get approval for you to do it." The answer was "No problem." You'd get off the ship at the end of the cruise feeling special and that you'd enjoyed a terrific time. Now people come off the ship worriedly looking at their onboard spending statements and calculating how good a time they had by how little they managed to spend. :confused:

 

You are absolutely correct, however the reason that cruise prices for many cabins are lower is because most new cruisers demand lower prices & may not be in the same financial situation which many of us retired folks are..Years ago we saved for our vacations & our retirement..We did not take expensive vacations when we could not afford them..

DH & I were fortunate & were able to fly on passes, however when we got to our destinations we booked ourselves in a small guest houses or the Holiday Inn's, not the expensive hotels..At this time many of our Grand children's age group want luxury & they go into hock to pay for this luxury.. They are looking for the bargains & they are the ones which HAL & other lines are trying to encourage to travel only because we are passé & HAL knows our time of travel is limited..:(

Cheers..:)Betty

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You are absolutely correct, however the reason that cruise prices for many cabins are lower is because most new cruisers demand lower prices & may not be in the same financial situation which many of us retired folks are..Years ago we saved for our vacations & our retirement..We did not take expensive vacations when we could not afford them..

 

DH & I were fortunate & were able to fly on passes, however when we got to our destinations we booked ourselves in a small guest houses or the Holiday Inn's, not the expensive hotels..At this time many of our Grand children's age group want luxury & they go into hock to pay for this luxury.. They are looking for the bargains & they are the ones which HAL & other lines are trying to encourage to travel only because we are passé & HAL knows our time of travel is limited..:(

 

Cheers..:)Betty

 

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 

If younger cruisers (of which I am one) are interested in Deluxe hotels and luxury tours and are willing to pay (or go into hock, which definitely ISN'T me, lol), then wouldn't cruise lines be better off offering more inclusive options for higher cost? :confused:

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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 

If younger cruisers (of which I am one) are interested in Deluxe hotels and luxury tours and are willing to pay (or go into hock, which definitely ISN'T me, lol), then wouldn't cruise lines be better off offering more inclusive options for higher cost? :confused:

The problem is, as I see it, there are too many cruises ships and cabins out there for hire than the market can comfortably bear and the only way they have been able to fill them is by lowering the fares and taking away inclusives. It broadens their market to a wider financial demographic. Until things change and people have more disposable income, I just don't see the trend ending. I suspect the cruise lines are starting to see the benefits of this trend and it will get worse before it gets better. I honestly don't see them taking the step of raising fares and adding inclusives, even if the economy improves. I really feel its a changing business model and it will never go back. I see the same thing happening in other travel industries like the airlines, resorts and hotels.

 

That's not to say there won't be new niche lines in the future offering high-end cruises with corresponding high-end fares. There is and will be a market for that. Just look at some of the resorts and hotels being built in the middle-east.

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The problem is, as I see it, there are too many cruises ships and cabins out there for hire than the market can comfortably bear and the only way they have been able to fill them is by lowering the fares and taking away inclusives. It broadens their market to a wider financial demographic. Until things change and people have more disposable income, I just don't see the trend ending. I suspect the cruise lines are starting to see the benefits of this trend and it will get worse before it gets better. I honestly don't see them taking the step of raising fares and adding inclusives, even if the economy improves. I really feel its a changing business model and it will never go back. I see the same thing happening in other travel industries like the airlines, resorts and hotels.

 

That's not to say there won't be new niche lines in the future offering high-end cruises with corresponding high-end fares. There is and will be a market for that. Just look at some of the resorts and hotels being built in the middle-east.

 

Yes, I'm sure that's true. :(

 

As I said in an earlier post, there are still experiences to be had that equate with the previous cruising experience, if one really looks for them. At the moment, I'm not sure if I will go back to the larger, mass market lines again. I probably would for the right itinerary and cost, but for now there is little appeal.

 

I guess we all draw a line in the sand at some point, and I think mine has nearly been crossed.

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I remember my first Holland America cruise back in January 1995. We'd gone on a "try it, you'll like it" four day cruise on Carnival the year before and based on what we liked and didn't like about that cruise our TA recommended Holland America as the best match. It was on the then very new Ryndam out of Ft Lauderdale. We didn't know about the "document dance" back then but I remember the excitement of getting that first blue folder with all of our cruise documents and information. It was exciting!

 

When we boarded the ship we entered on the Lower Promenade deck. I clearly remember, at the time almost with a sense of joy and wonder, being greeted by members of the ship's staff and a girl dressed in traditional dress handing each lady a tulip. To our left was the staircase and on every step was a uniformed member of the staff wearing white gloves. As soon as you entered one of them came down and took or at least offered to take your carry-on luggage. They asked for our cabin number and led us off to it.

 

We were cabin 0010, in what today is called a Deluxe Veranda Suite, and it was amazing. Shortly after we arrived in our cabin our cabin steward came by and introduced himself and asked if we had any questions, special requests, etc. Over the next ten days he quietly but very effective took care of our cabin. His service left us with that "is he hiding under the bed?" feeling as it seemed the moment we left the cabin the bed was made, the towels replaced, and the cabin cleaned. He was in a word fantastic.

 

During the rest of the afternoon we explored the Ryndam getting a feel for the layout and marveling how beautiful and welcoming the spaces were on the ship. One place that stood out was the Crow's Nest and we made the decision that we'd go there for cocktails before dinner and did that the whole cruise. Back then there was a four or five piece crew band that played every evening and late into the night. I remember the lighting in the ceiling, the long sweeping couches, and the ever present serving staff. We quickly were served that first night by Donald who became our regular server and who, by the second night, quickly brought us our typical drinks with only asking did we want our regular drinks or something else. I also remember the selection of hors d'oeuvres served from a cart wheeled throughout the Crow's Nest. The Crow's Nest would turn out to be our favorite place for before and after dinner.

 

Dinner for us was late seating . We didn't want to be late that first night so we wandered aft probably some twenty or so minutes before our seating time. We probably had made it as far as the piano bar when we heard the first hints of the dinner chimes. This was an immediate and pleasant flashback for me as the last time I'd heard those was some 40 plus years earlier as a five year old on the SS America coming back from England in 1952. We entered the dining room and were escorted to our table for six by one of the many uniform officers/senior staff stationed at the main entrance. Service was outstanding from night one to the final dinner. After the first night our drinks were waiting for us when we got to the table. Our water glasses were never empty, our food was quickly and accurately delivered as ordered, empty dishes were whisked away within moments, and the food was truly excellent from taste to presentation to temperature. I remember that last night as we were presented with a copy of the final dinner menu signed by our table staff and a few of the officers and senior crew of the dining room. Even the memory today brings a small tug to my heart and a tear to my eye.

 

There are many, many other aspects to the cruise I haven't mentioned. That's not to say they weren't important, just that there were so many that it is hard to capture them all here. Obviously aspects of the cruise were beyond Holland America's control. The weather was perfect; the seas were calm; the ports were new, interesting, and not crowded; and the flights to and from Ft Lauderdale comfortable and on time. It was indeed the perfect vacation.

 

I wrote this as a flashback to what I remember and what attracted us to Holland America so many years ago and kept us coming back year after year for sixteen years. Taken individually I suppose no one aspect means or meant more to us than another. It was the additive effect, the synergy of all taken together, that made cruising our vacation and Holland America our cruise line of choice. Maybe we're dwelling on things that aren't important and really don't mean that much but they were things we loved about cruising and slowly but surely they've disappeared or been somehow reduced over the years. It makes us sad and it makes us look elsewhere to recapture that sense of what cruising came to mean to us.

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I am in almost the exact same situation. I am cruising on HAL in December and have Alaska on HAL in May. If things are as I am anticipating, I may very well cancel the Alaska cruise with HAL and explore the alternatives.

 

You make a very good point, hence my quandary, where to go. I have always wanted to try Oceania. Yes, it is more expensive than HAL, but it seems to be much more like what HAL used to be and like what I am looking for. I know when I say I don't like the nickel and diming it sounds like I don't like the cost of it. That's not really the case. Its not the cost so much as the principal and my perceived tackiness of it. Each and everyone of the cutbacks and added charges on their own don't sound like much, but they add up. The more I look at Oceania, the more I like what I see and read. Celebrity also has my attention.

 

I too share your point of view... However, and this sounds strange, My experience with Oceania is that, after you add up all the things you would have paid for on HAL or X, ( including tips, dining,air fare) the Oceania comes out at the same price or up to 30% lower. At least for me

 

For me, Air fare included with Oceania is a HUGE deal. and worth anywhere between$ 1100pp and 2100pp that I would have to pay to get to Maimi or Aisia or Europe !

Even with using miles it would cost me $1400 pp to get to Miami ( miles are not free you paid about 3.5 cents to get 1)

Then too, on all the current Mass market ships you are loooking at being on a crowded ship with 2000 to 3000 others. With Oceania its 1200.

 

Finaly, I dont care for the hype and resort and down right amusement park atmosphere with a "hand out" at every trun for Juice to speciality dining.

 

I like Holland I do, but the companies direction of bigger and bigger ships and less and less service ( all lines actulay) has sent me to Oceaina for what Holland used to be in the 70's. and best of all no formal nights all casual. The only extra cost would be liquor or wine but for $49pd Oceaina will include that. Where as Holland has no such offer.

 

Here is a real example of a tale of 2 cruises both grand cruises, both in a veranda cabin of 280 sq ft. Both requiring a rt flight ftom Hawaii, both about 45 days and both about the same number of ports and distance covered. That as apples to apples as I can get

 

The Holland total cost air, tips,dining,cabin came to $465 pp per day

The Oceainia total cost that included all the above in the fare was $365pp per day !!!

 

Thats how it figures out for me...maybe you too

Holland and Celeb... both have no where to go but down from what they were.:o

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Well Hawaiidan, we have debated this before. If the day comes I can book a similar 7-10 day cruise, after considering all costs involved, on Oceania for 50% more than HAL, I will be all over it. That day hasn't come yet and Oceania is right around 100% more than the price of HAL every single time I've run the numbers.

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Well Hawaiidan, we have debated this before. If the day comes I can book a similar 7-10 day cruise, after considering all costs involved, on Oceania for 50% more than HAL, I will be all over it. That day hasn't come yet and Oceania is right around 100% more than the price of HAL every single time I've run the numbers.

 

It just depends upon where you want to be on the ship - Hawaiidan doesn't mind insides - in fact praises the advantages - I have the same issue as you - I like space and yes, I like a balcony. (boy, I'm hard to get along with). I haven't yet found an Oceania cruise that comes close to what I pay on HAL - Moreover the itineraries on Prinsendam so far have been far more intriguing than those I have seen on Oceania - but that's just me:eek:

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Randyk47, I loved your post. It describes our first experience on HAL to a tee. For anyone who has never experienced that level of service and attention to detail that was HAL back then, its impossible for them to understand where we may be coming from. They view our lamenting and remembering as complaining. I still like HAL and I don't really complain much about them, but I do remember the way things were, and I miss them.

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I remember my first Holland America cruise back in January 1995. We'd gone on a "try it, you'll like it" four day cruise on Carnival the year before and based on what we liked and didn't like about that cruise our TA recommended Holland America as the best match. It was on the then very new Ryndam out of Ft Lauderdale. We didn't know about the "document dance" back then but I remember the excitement of getting that first blue folder with all of our cruise documents and information. It was exciting!

 

When we boarded the ship we entered on the Lower Promenade deck. I clearly remember, at the time almost with a sense of joy and wonder, being greeted by members of the ship's staff and a girl dressed in traditional dress handing each lady a tulip. To our left was the staircase and on every step was a uniformed member of the staff wearing white gloves. As soon as you entered one of them came down and took or at least offered to take your carry-on luggage. They asked for our cabin number and led us off to it.

 

We were cabin 0010, in what today is called a Deluxe Veranda Suite, and it was amazing. Shortly after we arrived in our cabin our cabin steward came by and introduced himself and asked if we had any questions, special requests, etc. Over the next ten days he quietly but very effective took care of our cabin. His service left us with that "is he hiding under the bed?" feeling as it seemed the moment we left the cabin the bed was made, the towels replaced, and the cabin cleaned. He was in a word fantastic.

 

During the rest of the afternoon we explored the Ryndam getting a feel for the layout and marveling how beautiful and welcoming the spaces were on the ship. One place that stood out was the Crow's Nest and we made the decision that we'd go there for cocktails before dinner and did that the whole cruise. Back then there was a four or five piece crew band that played every evening and late into the night. I remember the lighting in the ceiling, the long sweeping couches, and the ever present serving staff. We quickly were served that first night by Donald who became our regular server and who, by the second night, quickly brought us our typical drinks with only asking did we want our regular drinks or something else. I also remember the selection of hors d'oeuvres served from a cart wheeled throughout the Crow's Nest. The Crow's Nest would turn out to be our favorite place for before and after dinner.

 

Dinner for us was late seating . We didn't want to be late that first night so we wandered aft probably some twenty or so minutes before our seating time. We probably had made it as far as the piano bar when we heard the first hints of the dinner chimes. This was an immediate and pleasant flashback for me as the last time I'd heard those was some 40 plus years earlier as a five year old on the SS America coming back from England in 1952. We entered the dining room and were escorted to our table for six by one of the many uniform officers/senior staff stationed at the main entrance. Service was outstanding from night one to the final dinner. After the first night our drinks were waiting for us when we got to the table. Our water glasses were never empty, our food was quickly and accurately delivered as ordered, empty dishes were whisked away within moments, and the food was truly excellent from taste to presentation to temperature. I remember that last night as we were presented with a copy of the final dinner menu signed by our table staff and a few of the officers and senior crew of the dining room. Even the memory today brings a small tug to my heart and a tear to my eye.

 

There are many, many other aspects to the cruise I haven't mentioned. That's not to say they weren't important, just that there were so many that it is hard to capture them all here. Obviously aspects of the cruise were beyond Holland America's control. The weather was perfect; the seas were calm; the ports were new, interesting, and not crowded; and the flights to and from Ft Lauderdale comfortable and on time. It was indeed the perfect vacation.

 

I wrote this as a flashback to what I remember and what attracted us to Holland America so many years ago and kept us coming back year after year for sixteen years. Taken individually I suppose no one aspect means or meant more to us than another. It was the additive effect, the synergy of all taken together, that made cruising our vacation and Holland America our cruise line of choice. Maybe we're dwelling on things that aren't important and really don't mean that much but they were things we loved about cruising and slowly but surely they've disappeared or been somehow reduced over the years. It makes us sad and it makes us look elsewhere to recapture that sense of what cruising came to mean to us.

 

Great post,thanks for taking us back to the good times.:)

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It is sad, isn't it, to remember what 'was'.

I have a different perspective, as I can't fly far (medical). All our cruises have to originate in the west.

It depends who is going with us as to which line we choose, but HAL is still our favorite. However, I am looking at Celebrity for another Hawaii cruise. That said, it is the Century, an older ship.

As someone mentioned, Lisa does sail in suites, and she knows alot of the crew on many lines. Big difference.

We don't like those big ships, and honestly, I like those CCL fantasy class ships. It is some of the passengers we have issues with. But~~~with all said, our hearts still belong to HAL. :)

Pat

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This brought back lovely memories of our first cruise on the Veendam in 2001. We had a table for two, and what keeps sticking in my mind is how much space there was between the tables. Not crowded at all. Also, our assistant waiter spent quite a bit of time showing us tricks, like how to get the cork out of the wine bottle using only a napkin!

 

It was magical, and until wandered down memory lane reading the above post,

I must say that I didn't realize how much things have really changed. We cruised three times with HAL after that, and moved on to other lines because of itineraries. We revisited HAL on the Zuiderdam last week, and while it was lovely, just not the same. Sniff!!

 

Still love to cruise!!!!:D

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After the experience in March on Zuiderdam where we had to fight with the desk for 4 days to get a workin AC we just decided not to cruise anymore for awhile . Instead we bought a condo in Florida.

 

For every customer that complains and goes away , a whole lot more just go away .

Not taking the chance on Hal again for a long long time . Maybe if a last minute special pops up out of Florida we'll go , but it won't matter which line anymore .

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We just got off the Noordam on Nov 5 following a wonderful TA. I have not been on CC too much since, but this thread caught my eye. The cappuccino in the MDR issue may be old news, but I enjoyed many a cappuccino for free in the MDR on the Noordam between Oct 22 and Nov 5 2012. Some kind of specialty water was offered at our table for a fee maybe 2-3 times over the course of the 14 nights, but never pushed. The specialty coffee in the Explorations Cafe was good and about half the price of an average coffee shop in the states. There was a fee for Cannaletto this time, and it never looked busy.

All in all, the nickle and diming was present, but not obtrusive. Would anyone decided not to go into a port because of the peddlers ashore? Doesn't it come with the territory?

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It just depends upon where you want to be on the ship - Hawaiidan doesn't mind insides - in fact praises the advantages - I have the same issue as you - I like space and yes, I like a balcony. (boy, I'm hard to get along with). I haven't yet found an Oceania cruise that comes close to what I pay on HAL - Moreover the itineraries on Prinsendam so far have been far more intriguing than those I have seen on Oceania - but that's just me:eek:

 

 

I agree, never saw Oceania cheaper then mass market line:o .Maybe I don't know where to look?

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Wow, so now if we lament about something we're cheapskates? LOL Yes, change does happen and we all react to it in our own way. When things change for the bad, I resist the change perhaps to the point of avoiding the change altogether. When they change for the good, I embrace the change. Fortunately, in life, there is always an alternative when things change in a way that you don't like. You don't have to just deal with it.

 

And sometimes, you just need to complain about it a little bit. It has nothing to do with how much you pay for it. :rolleyes:

Didn't you make a snarky remark on the water thread? You might not like some things, others might not like other things but we all have choices. I took my first cruise in 1984 on HAL. The difference is like night and day. So many things have changed. I think HAL still does I decent product but we'll see if my cruise is drastically different then it was in April.

Of course we can all complain but at some point everyone has to decide if the situation is going to improve or if it's going to be more of the same.

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Is that true? I've seen you complain on multiple threads about everything! When you're not doing that you are taking shots at me. It's tiresome.
Honestly, I think your comment was pretty misguided. You don't know what any of us pay for our cruises or how much we spend when on-board. I'm not sure what you meant by your comment other than to insult those who try to spend as little as possible, but are unhappy when things aren't delivered as well as they should be. What cabin you are in or how much you spend is irrelevant. You pay your fare, you sleep where you can afford, but everyone should expect the same level of service when on the ship. That's the way it works. If you're unhappy with the service you receive, you have every right to complain about it. Regardless of how much you paid.

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Didn't you make a snarky remark on the water thread? You might not like some things, others might not like other things but we all have choices. I took my first cruise in 1984 on HAL. The difference is like night and day. So many things have changed. I think HAL still does I decent product but we'll see if my cruise is drastically different then it was in April.

Of course we can all complain but at some point everyone has to decide if the situation is going to improve or if it's going to be more of the same.

I made one comment on that thread, thanking RuthC for her breath of sanity and commenting on how I felt after reading it in its entirety. Is that snarky?

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>SNIP<

What cabin you are in or how much you spend is irrelevant. You pay your fare, you sleep where you can afford, but everyone should expect the same level of service when on the ship. That's the way it works. If you're unhappy with the service you receive, you have every right to complain about it. Regardless of how much you paid.

 

 

(bolding mine)

 

We normally travel in the cheap seats. We were fortunate enough to get an upsell to a suite on one cruise. There is an order of magnitude difference between the service in the cheap seats and the service in the suites. It makes me laugh when the people who regularly travel in suites make comments to posters about "well, you should have just blah blah blah" when problems are encountered with non-suite accommodation.

 

So the "same level of service" across the board no longer exists IMHO, if it ever did. There is a class system on HAL, based on one's accommodation. Most certainly those of us in the cheap seats have a right to complain when problems arise, but to expect a great response and quick resolution is only setting oneself up for disappointment ;)

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Someone mentioned they would have to book a Penthouse on HAL for the cost to be nearly comparable. The most important thing to consider is, the CHEAPEST Regent category on Navigator is a cabin 300 sq. ft. You would have to compare with a very large HAL cabin. People who drink a LOT (coffee, sodas in addition to alcohol) also get more bang for their buck!

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(bolding mine)

 

We normally travel in the cheap seats. We were fortunate enough to get an upsell to a suite on one cruise. There is an order of magnitude difference between the service in the cheap seats and the service in the suites. It makes me laugh when the people who regularly travel in suites make comments to posters about "well, you should have just blah blah blah" when problems are encountered with non-suite accommodation.

 

So the "same level of service" across the board no longer exists IMHO, if it ever did. There is a class system on HAL, based on one's accommodation. Most certainly those of us in the cheap seats have a right to complain when problems arise, but to expect a great response and quick resolution is only setting oneself up for disappointment ;)

And that is wrong, IMO. Way wrong.

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