New propulsion problem on Millennium

[moebruin]

They found a Canadian charter plus a couple of other planes. The Canadian charter Co most likely DID NOT have authority from US DOT to fly INTRA Alaska flights. Just like Canadian trucking companies-they can bring product out of Canada and take product out of the USA and go BACK to Canada. They cannot transport from let's say-Los Angeles to Phoenix, THEN pickup a load going back to Canada UNLESS the load from LA to Phoenix is either a continuation of the load to Canada OR the product transported from LA to Phoenix is OWNED by a Canadian company.

 

quote]

 

As a passenger on the August 16th cruise I can tell you that this is an incorrect statement. The charter flights were done using Air Miami a charter company based in Florida. It was their personnel who also handled the security screening for the flights.

[moebruin]

They would have been in strict compliance if they loaded everybody on charters and flew them to the disembarkation port and said ok you are here you are on your own.

 

They would have been more in line with the letter and less in line with the intent. I doubt anyone would be happier.

 

Having been on the ship I can tell you there were allot of people who would have been allot happier if that had happened.

 

Many were left on their own in Seattle and Vancouver where they didn't have hotels or flights home from and were told to arrange on the boat with computers brought in new hotels and flights in their new cities on their own.

 

Many parties including families were split up on flights and cities. Many were sent to Vancouver and Seattle despite having their own post cruise plans in Anchorage.

 

So there would have been allot more happy people if they were all sent to Anchorage or Seward.

[specialdiet]

"While Bayley characterized the vast majority of guests as okay with the line's charter arrangements, he added that some guests told the line one destination they'd like to fly to, but then changed their minds later."

 

Hi Ruth, glad to see you come out from hiding, and thanks again for the entertaining chat pre-departure...

 

Given the article was a report on a press briefing, it would be good to know if that was an accurate (and complete) interpretation of what he said.

 

If it is, while it's likely not a lie (I'm sure some very few did change their minds), it's certainly a mischaracterization of what happened, as you described.

 

My cynical self would interpret it as the kind of "executive weasel words" that get tossed around to appease whatever audience you happen to be addressing at the moment. But in this day and age where everyone quickly finds out about everything said to anyone, it's pretty stupid.

 

A more accurate version ("we never asked people where they wanted to go, though some people told us anyway, and then we just randomly assigned most people without regard for any preference or rationale") wouldn't have been too helpful in that context.

 

So my reaction would be "did you actually say that?" followed by "you bozo". I gave up being insulted by CEO's years ago!

[gblotter]

A more accurate version ("we never asked people where they wanted to go, though some people told us anyway, and then we just randomly assigned most people without regard for any preference or rationale") wouldn't have been too helpful in that context.

You nailed the true situation - hahah.

 

I gave up being insulted by CEO's years ago!

Wise advice.

[Ruthith]

Hi Ruth, glad to see you come out from hiding, and thanks again for the entertaining chat pre-departure...

 

Given the article was a report on a press briefing, it would be good to know if that was an accurate (and complete) interpretation of what he said.

 

If it is, while it's likely not a lie (I'm sure some very few did change their minds), it's certainly a mischaracterization of what happened, as you described.

 

My cynical self would interpret it as the kind of "executive weasel words" that get tossed around to appease whatever audience you happen to be addressing at the moment. But in this day and age where everyone quickly finds out about everything said to anyone, it's pretty stupid.

 

A more accurate version ("we never asked people where they wanted to go, though some people told us anyway, and then we just randomly assigned most people without regard for any preference or rationale") wouldn't have been too helpful in that context.

 

So my reaction would be "did you actually say that?" followed by "you bozo". I gave up being insulted by CEO's years ago!

Hi SpecialDiet! Yes, loved chatting last week.

 

So I got an almost immediate reply, which I think may actually have come directly from Michael. And he pointed out that he was relying on what was told him - which included that some people did change their mind. And honestly - I have to give him the benefit of the doubt there, it's likely that SOMEONE did. He did also point out "I did not state you changed your destination."

 

I give him huge credit for responding so quickly. He did acknowledge "there were communication issues which we will resolve." But honestly - my larger concern is I have really lost confidence in them, and I truly LOVED sailing with them. His reply didn't do anything to raise my confidence level. I mean really - what if we had been at sea? On a Transatlantic? Who would be in charge? I have no interested in a Carnival debacle.

 

Anyway. I'll let you know if i hear anything else!

[ghstudio]

In fairness, I've worked with CEO's that don't want to hear bad news and are nasty when someone brings it to them. It's quite possible that Mr Bayley only received what folks thought he wanted to hear...and that he really doesn't know the situation on the ship. Certainly those that report to him would want to appear that they were on top of the situation and everything was being handled smoothly.

 

At this point (and perhaps never) we don't know if Mr Bayley really understands what went on during the "evacuation" or he was never told the reality of what's been reported here.

 

I'm not supporting his lack of any statement....but he may think it was handled so well, no statement was required.

[sandyss]

In fairness, I've worked with CEO's that don't want to hear bad news and are nasty when someone brings it to them. It's quite possible that Mr Bayley only received what folks thought he wanted to hear...and that he really doesn't know the situation on the ship. Certainly those that report to him would want to appear that they were on top of the situation and everything was being handled smoothly.

 

At this point (and perhaps never) we don't know if Mr Bayley really understands what went on during the "evacuation" or he was never told the reality of what's been reported here.

 

I'm not supporting his lack of any statement....but he may think it was handled so well, no statement was required.

 

I agree that Mr. Bayley may not have been made aware of the chaos on board in Ketchikan. Guest Relations and the Go Team may have whitewashed reports of what was actually transpiring on board - since they would want to protect their jobs.

 

I sent a copy of my posting of our experience to Mr. Bayley. I did not ask for any additional compensation - I just wanted the head honcho to know what really happened, and how the evacuation impacted many of us on board. I suggest that others on the August 16 cruise do likewise.

[Christine Frances]

They found a Canadian charter plus a couple of other planes. The Canadian charter Co most likely DID NOT have authority from US DOT to fly INTRA Alaska flights. Just like Canadian trucking companies-they can bring product out of Canada and take product out of the USA and go BACK to Canada. They cannot transport from let's say-Los Angeles to Phoenix, THEN pickup a load going back to Canada UNLESS the load from LA to Phoenix is either a continuation of the load to Canada OR the product transported from LA to Phoenix is OWNED by a Canadian company.

 

quote]

 

As a passenger on the August 16th cruise I can tell you that this is an incorrect statement. The charter flights were done using Air Miami a charter company based in Florida. It was their personnel who also handled the security screening for the flights.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=39747795&postcount=841

[wwcruisers]

In fairness, I've worked with CEO's that don't want to hear bad news and are nasty when someone brings it to them. It's quite possible that Mr Bayley only received what folks thought he wanted to hear...and that he really doesn't know the situation on the ship. Certainly those that report to him would want to appear that they were on top of the situation and everything was being handled smoothly.

 

At this point (and perhaps never) we don't know if Mr Bayley really understands what went on during the "evacuation" or he was never told the reality of what's been reported here.

 

I'm not supporting his lack of any statement....but he may think it was handled so well, no statement was required.

 

IMHO -- all the more reason for him to have gotten on a plane and flown to Ketchikan, to personally oversee the operation. But of course, since he didn't -- he now has plausible deniability. :rolleyes:

[George D]

I've been following the discussions on this board and I thought I'd pass on my Millennium story. My wife and I booked a btb on the Millennium starting August 30th.

 

Like many of you, we were notified by text and email on the morning of the 21st that both of our cruises had been canceled.

 

I had made our flight reservations directly with Choice Air, so I called them to see what kind of refund we were going to get on our reservations. I got what felt was a well rehearsed response, they were just a travel agent and that Celebrity was going to pay us up to $200 (I think that was the number) to cover the cost of changing our reservations. I took that as meaning we're financially stuck for the flight, but It never occurred to me that they would cancel the reservations, which is what happened, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

I found that the Holland American Zaandam was following a similar itinerary, but leaving two days later. We had planned on spending four days in Seattle after our Millennium cruise, so we had a cushion in our airline reservations. It was a good plan B, so we booked it.

 

I volunteer at the airport USO, and was there the morning of the 21st and checked with US Air to see if my paperwork from Choice Air was in fact an e-ticket. They said it was and looked in their computer to verify that we were booked – we were.

 

Today, August 29th, we showed up at the airport with our suitcases to board our flight to Vancouver. We were told our itinerary had been canceled, but the reservation was there ??? Choice Air had done this on Saturday the 24th. The US Air agent did a lot of checking but couldn't find a seat on the second leg of our flight, so we couldn't go. I called Choice Air and I was told they had canceled the airline reservation since cruise had been canceled. They told me they had notified my travel agent. I told their representative I had made the reservations directly with Choice Air, not the travel agent and notifying a third party was not an acceptable answer. After about and hour and a half of discussions and being given flight itineraries that were totally unacceptable (red eye back from Seattle) I finally talked to a supervisor, which in hindsight, I should have demanded up front. We now have reservations for a flight on Saturday, two days after our original flight and the day before our HAL cruise.

 

Beware of Choice Air.

[MicCanberra]

I agree that Mr. Bayley may not have been made aware of the chaos on board in Ketchikan. Guest Relations and the Go Team may have whitewashed reports of what was actually transpiring on board - since they would want to protect their jobs.

 

I sent a copy of my posting of our experience to Mr. Bayley. I did not ask for any additional compensation - I just wanted the head honcho to know what really happened, and how the evacuation impacted many of us on board. I suggest that others on the August 16 cruise do likewise.

If Michael Bayley had gone to Ketchikan than he would have known for sure what was happening.:(

[MicCanberra]

I've been following the discussions on this board and I thought I'd pass on my Millennium story. My wife and I booked a btb on the Millennium starting August 30th.

 

Like many of you, we were notified by text and email on the morning of the 21st that both of our cruises had been canceled.

 

I had made our flight reservations directly with Choice Air, so I called them to see what kind of refund we were going to get on our reservations. I got what felt was a well rehearsed response, they were just a travel agent and that Celebrity was going to pay us up to $200 (I think that was the number) to cover the cost of changing our reservations. I took that as meaning we're financially stuck for the flight, but It never occurred to me that they would cancel the reservations, which is what happened, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

I found that the Holland American Zaandam was following a similar itinerary, but leaving two days later. We had planned on spending four days in Seattle after our Millennium cruise, so we had a cushion in our airline reservations. It was a good plan B, so we booked it.

 

I volunteer at the airport USO, and was there the morning of the 21st and checked with US Air to see if my paperwork from Choice Air was in fact an e-ticket. They said it was and looked in their computer to verify that we were booked – we were.

 

Today, August 29th, we showed up at the airport with our suitcases to board our flight to Vancouver. We were told our itinerary had been canceled, but the reservation was there ??? Choice Air had done this on Saturday the 24th. The US Air agent did a lot of checking but couldn't find a seat on the second leg of our flight, so we couldn't go. I called Choice Air and I was told they had canceled the airline reservation since cruise had been canceled. They told me they had notified my travel agent. I told their representative I had made the reservations directly with Choice Air, not the travel agent and notifying a third party was not an acceptable answer. After about and hour and a half of discussions and being given flight itineraries that were totally unacceptable (red eye back from Seattle) I finally talked to a supervisor, which in hindsight, I should have demanded up front. We now have reservations for a flight on Saturday, two days after our original flight and the day before our HAL cruise.

 

Beware of Choice Air.

I am sorry to hear that you have been stuffed around more than the once. Have a good cruise and try and forget all this hassle.:D

[deise17311]

If Michael Bayley had gone to Ketchikan than he would have known for sure what was happening.:(

 

I agree...amazing how when it was first mentioned, those of us in favor of this were flamed without mercy with such statements as, "what did you want, for him to carry your luggage"....it's amazing back seat driver reactions...amusing at best...

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

[MicCanberra]

I agree...amazing how when it was first mentioned, those of us in favor of this were flamed without mercy with such statements as, "what did you want, for him to carry your luggage"....it's amazing back seat driver reactions...amusing at best...

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

Hindsight is wonderful, it reveals all manner of mistakes and X have made a few.:D

[CPT Trips]

Interesting but it's lilkely Celebrity could have chartered from a company that can fly intra state in alaska....or alternatively chartered additional planes (or offered free tickets) from vancouver to seward which would seem to be required by the passenger bill of rights.

 

Do you have a link to said certificate?

[ghstudio]

Do you have a link to said certificate?

 

You are asking the wrong person

[greatam]

They found a Canadian charter plus a couple of other planes. The Canadian charter Co most likely DID NOT have authority from US DOT to fly INTRA Alaska flights. Just like Canadian trucking companies-they can bring product out of Canada and take product out of the USA and go BACK to Canada. They cannot transport from let's say-Los Angeles to Phoenix, THEN pickup a load going back to Canada UNLESS the load from LA to Phoenix is either a continuation of the load to Canada OR the product transported from LA to Phoenix is OWNED by a Canadian company.

 

quote]

 

As a passenger on the August 16th cruise I can tell you that this is an incorrect statement. The charter flights were done using Air Miami a charter company based in Florida. It was their personnel who also handled the security screening for the flights.

 

X used Miami Air International, Sun Country and Northern Air. Looking at the FAA cert, Miami Air only has authority to fly INTRA STATE with 25 or fewer passengers in certain states. And since their main business is military and sports teams and military supersedes the FAA regulations, there really were few opportunities for a Ketchikan to ANC flight. IF it would have been a life or death emergency, the rules would have been waived. But not likely in the short period of time that X had to move everyone out of Ketchikan. Does our government ever do anything rapidly even in a dire emergency?

 

Here is the content of Miami Air's planes.

Miami Air International fleet Aircraft

Passengers Planes in Service

(Business/Economy)

Boeing 737-400 2

68C

Boeing 737-800 5

48C and 70Y or 172Y

 

There are only 5 planes configured with 172 coach seats that would have moved enough passengers to get everyone moving in a timely fashion. That still would mean 10 flights just on those aircraft IF all 5 planes were configured as coach and the planes had no other commitments.

 

Using the 2 737-4's would have been a waste of everyone's time due to the limited passenger capacity. Nice ride but with football season starting, I would almost guess those were already under contract.

[Big_G]

I agree...amazing how when it was first mentioned, those of us in favor of this were flamed without mercy with such statements as, "what did you want, for him to carry your luggage"....it's amazing back seat driver reactions...amusing at best...

 

 

Sent using the Cruise Critic forums app

 

Hindsight is wonderful, it reveals all manner of mistakes and X have made a few.:D

 

Agreed MicCanberra and if things had not been mishandled would there have been anyone questioning why Mr. Bayley wasn't there? This wasn't the Grandeur fire nor was it the Triumph. No question that he and his team screwed up. Once the crap hit the fan, it was too late for him to fly up there and take charge. The damage was done. This doesn't excuse him for his radio silence during this incident. That's what got him in trouble. All he had to do was communicate.

[CPT Trips]

Oops! Guess who wasn't paying attention . . .

 

Well, if anyone with knowledge read my post, got a link to the FAA cert referenced.

[moebruin]

The flight I took from Ketchikan to Anchorage was a Miami Air flight that fit about 170 people. There was also an Air Country plane I saw at the airport but don't know its destination.

 

Don't forget they also shipped allot of the crew home and they actually shipped them out before they flew out all the passengers. The last call for crew disembarking was Thursday morning while my disembarkation was at 1 pm on Thursday.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Forums mobile app

[CALIF65GM]

 

X used Miami Air International, Sun Country and Northern Air. Looking at the FAA cert, Miami Air only has authority to fly INTRA STATE with 25 or fewer passengers in certain states. And since their main business is military and sports teams and military supersedes the FAA regulations, there really were few opportunities for a Ketchikan to ANC flight. IF it would have been a life or death emergency, the rules would have been waived. But not likely in the short period of time that X had to move everyone out of Ketchikan. Does our government ever do anything rapidly even in a dire emergency?

 

.

 

I have no vested interest in this Celebrity fiasco, but your comments really don't make a lot of sense.

 

Miami Air flew at least 6-flights on that Thursday between Ketchikan and Anchorage, so I have no idea why your mentioning the inter-state vs intra-state authorization. Sun Country also flew at least 3-RT that Thursday.

 

Here's just one of many charter flights that they performed on behalf of Celebrity that day.

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BSK660/history/20130823/0730Z/PAKT/PANC

 

It really seems like you're an Celebrity executive trying to make excuses for the company having pressed the f/u key on their keyboards.

[The_Big_M]

I've been following the discussions on this board and I thought I'd pass on my Millennium story. My wife and I booked a btb on the Millennium starting August 30th.

 

Like many of you, we were notified by text and email on the morning of the 21st that both of our cruises had been canceled.

 

I had made our flight reservations directly with Choice Air, so I called them to see what kind of refund we were going to get on our reservations. I got what felt was a well rehearsed response, they were just a travel agent and that Celebrity was going to pay us up to $200 (I think that was the number) to cover the cost of changing our reservations. I took that as meaning we're financially stuck for the flight, but It never occurred to me that they would cancel the reservations, which is what happened, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

I found that the Holland American Zaandam was following a similar itinerary, but leaving two days later. We had planned on spending four days in Seattle after our Millennium cruise, so we had a cushion in our airline reservations. It was a good plan B, so we booked it.

 

I volunteer at the airport USO, and was there the morning of the 21st and checked with US Air to see if my paperwork from Choice Air was in fact an e-ticket. They said it was and looked in their computer to verify that we were booked – we were.

 

Today, August 29th, we showed up at the airport with our suitcases to board our flight to Vancouver. We were told our itinerary had been canceled, but the reservation was there ??? Choice Air had done this on Saturday the 24th. The US Air agent did a lot of checking but couldn't find a seat on the second leg of our flight, so we couldn't go. I called Choice Air and I was told they had canceled the airline reservation since cruise had been canceled. They told me they had notified my travel agent. I told their representative I had made the reservations directly with Choice Air, not the travel agent and notifying a third party was not an acceptable answer. After about and hour and a half of discussions and being given flight itineraries that were totally unacceptable (red eye back from Seattle) I finally talked to a supervisor, which in hindsight, I should have demanded up front. We now have reservations for a flight on Saturday, two days after our original flight and the day before our HAL cruise.

 

Beware of Choice Air.

 

Wow, that's bad. They wanted both bites of the cherry.

[RDC1]

This probably isn't the thread to discuss this....but since we're here....

 

The bill of rights was carefully written and approved by the cruise lines. It is not "intent", it is an agreement by the cruise lines to do what they published.

 

Consider:

 

1) folks who had other plans in Seward..following the cruise;

 

2) Folks who had a return flight on an airline that doesn't serve Vancouver or serves it with additional stopovers;

 

3) Folks who, having no other plans would have prefered to be "stranded" in seward vs being returned to Vancouver

 

Yes, for many Vancouver was just as good...for some, perhaps better. But there are those who expected to be in Seward, and if Celebrity had followed the bill of rights, they would have gotten there. Celebrity, independently, decided Vancouver was just as good. I just think that's wrong....or if it stands, then we should just ignore the passenger bill of rights and get on with the senate hearings and put some regulations in place. Alternatively, just change the bill or rights to say the cruise lines will get you somewhere they choose and just leave it at that :)

 

I agree that celebrity went beyond the bill of rights and that they tried to do the right thing, knowing that not everyone would be happy. I applaud that...I think the bill of rights is the minimum .... and that cruise lines will always do more, focused on their passengers. I don't know....maybe that offsets the specifics in the bill of rights....but the cruise lines published the document.....seems to me they should follow it.

 

I wasn't there...I'm just following the threads on this....and I am concerned about the items in the "bill of rights"...we cruise a fair amount to some unusual areas.

 

Compliance with the bill of rights meant that Celebrity could either get people to their port of disembarkation or get them home.

 

It was not get each passenger to their preferred choice of the two.

 

The combination of flights to Anchorage or to Vancouver/Seattle together with the change fee accomplished that.

 

Now if someone incurred a higher cost then the change fee in the costs to get home, then they have a case that in their situation Celebrity did not meet the terms of the Bill of Rights. Note this is not for any expenses related to the trip. Only in costs getting from to their home from Vancouver or Seattle.

[gblotter]

Compliance with the bill of rights meant that Celebrity could either get people to their port of disembarkation or get them home.

 

It was not get each passenger to their preferred choice of the two.

 

The combination of flights to Anchorage or to Vancouver/Seattle together with the change fee accomplished that.

 

Now if someone incurred a higher cost then the change fee in the costs to get home, then they have a case that in their situation Celebrity did not meet the terms of the Bill of Rights. Note this is not for any expenses related to the trip. Only in costs getting from to their home from Vancouver or Seattle.

Thank you Mr. Bayley for that clarification.

[MicCanberra]

Compliance with the bill of rights meant that Celebrity could either get people to their port of disembarkation or get them home.

But in some cases they did neither.:(