Live from the Dawn - the update on boarding issues

[che5904]

Why has she not left port yet?

 

snow bunny

 

6:40 pm and still looks to be there. :confused:

[legion3]

In the CBP Vessel Inspection Guide I reference above, it does not say that the embarkation of new passengers in a foreign port of call would change the documentation required for a US citizen on a closed loop voyage, but it changes to processing of the vessel when it returns to the US. Therefore, there would be no fine for the cruise line having any US citizen on this cruise without a passport, regardless of any "waiver".

 

Well in the law no one regulation or law or inspection guide that completely dictates all aspects of a policy

 

and the "waiver" was mentioned by NCL to a direct question from me at the meet and greet. They specifically said that they faced a $5000 fine for violating passport requirements of entry.

 

While I work in the legal field I did not press the ncl officer for the specific rule, regulation or law that they faced this fine.

 

The bottom line is no matter what the Dawn is having embarcation and reentry issues that the Ryndam and Legend are not and are inconviencing their passengers or the cbp is doing so and has some authority to do so.

 

Today I went through this process on the dawn and the cbp officers were putting each of our info in by hand. Two passports and two birth certificates.

 

The key issues is not wether or not a fine is waived or not or a passport requirement is waived or not, or what regulation is being applied but that the dawn is facing a different re entry process and right now at 7:26 is still sitting at the dock in Tampa.

 

Maybe its a combination of embarcation, computer or stabilizer issues but its not sailing.

[njhorseman]

I, at least, am not questioning that a passport is not required for these cruises. What I am saying is that the usual cursory examination of the passenger documents is no longer done, but that they will run your name through the database, which will slow things down.

 

I've looked at the CBP Vessel Inspection Guide (http://nemo.cbp.gov/opa/vessel_guide.pdf), which states on page 31 (unable to cut and paste) "Cruises that begin in a foreign country, or embark new passengers in a foreign port of call, are not inspected as a "closed loop" arrival and will be processed as a foreign arrival."

 

Title 19 US Code 1436 has the penalties for violating of arrival, reporting, entry and clearence requirements.

 

"Any master .... $5000 first violation and $10,000 subsequent violations"

 

I must assume that this is the Law the officers on NCL were concerned about. This is a law as opposed to a federal regulation.

 

Anyway I will do some more indepth research later. This was just a quick read.

 

But it does not seem this is a bureaucrat making something up.

 

Nor did I question that embarking passengers in Cozumel would cause the processing of passengers to change from the closed loop procedures.

 

I was questioning poster legion3's statement that:

 

The requirment of a passport has been waived for these Dawn cruises. This was from the officers at the meet and greet and it was a big relief to NCL because they faced a $5000 fine per person not having a passport.

 

It is the carrier that gets dinged. The US citizen should not have been allowed to travel w/o a passport on a open loop cruise which this became in Coz.

 

...because the act of boarding passengers in Cozumel does not change passport requirements for those US citizens who boarded in Tampa. They still don'y need a passport. No additional waiver was required.

 

As you noted it changes the processing of the cruise when it arrives back in Tampa. You also cleared up legion3's statement about the fine being $5,000 per passenger not having a passport. It's apparently $5,000 fine for the first violation by the master of the vessel for not properly reporting the vessel had taken on passengers in a foreign port ...not a per passenger fine for each passenger not having a passport (that they never needed).

Edited December 9, 2013 by njhorseman

[chengkp75]

Well in the law no one regulation or law or inspection guide that completely dictates all aspects of a policy

 

and the "waiver" was mentioned by NCL to a direct question from me at the meet and greet. They specifically said that they faced a $5000 fine for violating passport requirements of entry.Having worked for NCL, I can say that the onboard staff, even the Captain, are not completely conversant with all immigration procedures (heck, even their phone people don't get it right most times), or what corporate thinking is.

 

While I work in the legal field I did not press the ncl officer for the specific rule, regulation or law that they faced this fine.

 

The bottom line is no matter what the Dawn is having embarcation and reentry issues that the Ryndam and Legend are not and are inconviencing their passengers or the cbp is doing so and has some authority to do so.Yes, and what I've posted is why the Dawn is having "difficulties" in disembarking, that the embarking of passengers in a foreign port changes the processing of the ship upon return to the US. There is nothing that NCL can or could do, short of cancelling the Cozumel to Cozumel itinerary for UK passengers.

 

Today I went through this process on the dawn and the cbp officers were putting each of our info in by hand. Two passports and two birth certificates.

 

The key issues is not wether or not a fine is waived or not or a passport requirement is waived or not, or what regulation is being applied but that the dawn is facing a different re entry process and right now at 7:26 is still sitting at the dock in Tampa.And what NJ and I have been pointing out is why that key issue has been happening, and whether or not NCL is to blame for it.

 

Maybe its a combination of embarcation, computer or stabilizer issues but its not sailing.

 

I'm just trying to get the correct information out there, based on a little research and my experience. Just because a ship's "officer", and I use that term loosely, since only deck and engine officers ARE officers, says something, that doesn't necessarily make it right.

[hladygirl]

All I know is that we were going to book the Dawn in April but have changed our minds after all of the issues. There is no way I want to spend all that money and begin and end my vacation with frustration. Sorry ncl but I'd rather go elsewhere. If not for cruise critic no one booking these cruises would be aware of these issues. Shame on NCL for not letting people know prior to booking

[houseflipper48]

We are set to sail on the Dawn next Sunday, I sure hope they get this fixed. I don't want to wait in lines for hours!!

:mad:

[legion3]

True. They certainly seemed sincere but I deal with people who lie for a living so they may have been lying or mistaken or hiding something or telling partial truths.

 

But the open loop cruises, no matter, are a hassle for those getting on in Tampa, getting on and getting off (so to speak) the ship was a topic of discussion onboard. Much of that conversation was negative or neutral but nothing I heard was positive.

 

I again say what I said before, for the sake of 70 the time and paitence of 2000 are inconvienced. Not a business selling point I would advertise.

 

Norwegians stand in line longer?

 

Still the cruise was great and NCL and its delays and legal issues are not my concern. I served my time waiting in line. I was just trying to pass on the info we were given on this last voyage by the ships people. Use the info as you please.

[mc_reeve]

I skipped through the thread and did not see any particular suggestions on how to best minimize the hassles. We are on the January 26th cruise and too late to cancel or change without a penalty - plus other plans around the trip are made. We are driving from about 8 hours away and have lots of flexibility on the embarkation side - maybe a bit less on leaving the ship as we need to get on the road. Has anyone who has been through this posted any suggestions for avoiding as much of the mess as possible - early or late boarding etc etc??

 

Wish we had known about this before locking in.

[vols_159]

So where there issues today?

[bakerintn]

I skipped through the thread and did not see any particular suggestions on how to best minimize the hassles. We are on the January 26th cruise and too late to cancel or change without a penalty - plus other plans around the trip are made. We are driving from about 8 hours away and have lots of flexibility on the embarkation side - maybe a bit less on leaving the ship as we need to get on the road. Has anyone who has been through this posted any suggestions for avoiding as much of the mess as possible - early or late boarding etc etc??

 

Wish we had known about this before locking in.

 

 

Try to be one of the first to get off the ship with your own luggage .... or chill and wait comfortably somewhere (in your cabin until 10 am and elsewhere after that) on the ship until most everyone else is off the ship. We waited in line for 2.5 hours, starting at 9 am to get off...not fun and no bathrooms or beverages in that line!

[che5904]

I skipped through the thread and did not see any particular suggestions on how to best minimize the hassles. We are on the January 26th cruise and too late to cancel or change without a penalty - plus other plans around the trip are made.

 

NCL rep has came on this thread earlier stating that they were aware of these issues and working to correct them. You may not need a suggestion on how to best minimize the hassle as this may be a non-issue by the time you sail.

 

Maybe I'm just a positive thinker, but we sail 2 weeks after you and I am trusting that NCL will get this straightened out by then.

 

We know the sailing before this one and others had issues with embarkation and disembarkation. We know this last sailing had issues with disembarkation, but so far there have been no reports that this time they had any issues with disembarkation.

 

The ship was late leaving tonight but that may have had nothing to do with embarkation. She's had a few problems with the stabilizers so perhaps they wanted to fix the problem once and for all, so was taking the time to fix them now.

[coolbolts]

For those that said the problem was people did not listen and arrived too early we arrived at the 1:00 time frame and crossed the gangway around 5:45. Close to 5 hours in line.

As far as resolving the problem the last scheduled color tag call getting off is 1:00 so I would assume that the ship would be cleared by 2:00. There is no way to load the ship in two hours.

[Aquahound]

In the CBP Vessel Inspection Guide I reference above, it does not say that the embarkation of new passengers in a foreign port of call would change the documentation required for a US citizen on a closed loop voyage, but it changes to processing of the vessel when it returns to the US. Therefore, there would be no fine for the cruise line having any US citizen on this cruise without a passport, regardless of any "waiver".

 

You are correct. It is very common for cruises to embark passengers in a foreign port. In most cases, it's because those passengers missed the initial embarkation and had to fly to the first port of call. When this happenes, it changes nothing for those on the original manifest. This scenario at hand isn't too much different. Perhaps, buried in the law somewhere, is a specific number or percentage of foreign embarkations that would change the status.

 

...because the act of boarding passengers in Cozumel does not change passport requirements for those US citizens who boarded in Tampa. They still don'y need a passport. No additional waiver was required.

 

As you noted it changes the processing of the cruise when it arrives back in Tampa. You also cleared up legion3's statement about the fine being $5,000 per passenger not having a passport. It's apparently $5,000 fine for the first violation by the master of the vessel for not properly reporting the vessel had taken on passengers in a foreign port ...not a per passenger fine for each passenger not having a passport (that they never needed).

 

I would think that a major cruise line, like NCL, would clear all this up, legally, prior to doing this. I'm pretty sure their legal staff discussed this with federal officials and were given a clear explanation of the law.

 

Based on what is happening, I can't help but side with this remaining as a Closed Loop cruise because Americans boarding in Tampa are not required to carry passports.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure what changes when all these people are scheduled to board in a foreign port. After following this thread, I agree with what was said earlier....these delays are being caused by CBP in Tampa...for whatever reason. By the way, I'm familiar with the database they use, so I'm not sure why they are fat-fingering the info opposed to scanning passports.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Aquahound

[che5904]

You are correct. It is very common for cruises to embark passengers in a foreign port. In most cases, it's because those passengers missed the initial embarkation and had to fly to the first port of call. When this happenes, it changes nothing for those on the original manifest. This scenario at hand isn't too much different. Perhaps, buried in the law somewhere, is a specific number or percentage of foreign embarkations that would change the status.

 

 

 

I would think that a major cruise line, like NCL, would clear all this up, legally, prior to doing this. I'm pretty sure their legal staff discussed this with federal officials and were given a clear explanation of the law.

 

Based on what is happening, I can't help but side with this remaining as a Closed Loop cruise because Americans boarding in Tampa are not required to carry passports.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure what changes when all these people are scheduled to board in a foreign port. After following this thread, I agree with what was said earlier....these delays are being caused by CBP in Tampa...for whatever reason. By the way, I'm familiar with the database they use, so I'm not sure why they are fat-fingering the info opposed to scanning passports.

 

LOL, Gee this thread has became really complicated. And to think, as an upcoming cruiser on this ship, all I was interested in was am I going to have to pull up a piece of grass and plant myself for a while and was I going to have to find some very comfy lounger with my large travel mug of coffee to relax in while I waited to disembark with little chaos.

 

Now my head is spinning with all this extra knowledge that's attempting to enter my brain :eek: hahahaha Oh my, I really need a cruise more than ever now :D :D

[chengkp75]

You are correct. It is very common for cruises to embark passengers in a foreign port. In most cases, it's because those passengers missed the initial embarkation and had to fly to the first port of call. When this happenes, it changes nothing for those on the original manifest. This scenario at hand isn't too much different. Perhaps, buried in the law somewhere, is a specific number or percentage of foreign embarkations that would change the status.From what I'm reading on other threads, this is becoming less frequent, as the lines are less likely to grant permission for delayed boarding in foreign ports, perhaps because of the requirement to clear everyone as if from a foreign voyage.

 

 

 

I would think that a major cruise line, like NCL, would clear all this up, legally, prior to doing this. I'm pretty sure their legal staff discussed this with federal officials and were given a clear explanation of the law. Whether NCL legal or corporate know the law, or the shipboard staff know the law is two very different things.

 

Based on what is happening, I can't help but side with this remaining as a Closed Loop cruise because Americans boarding in Tampa are not required to carry passports. Right on.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure what changes when all these people are scheduled to board in a foreign port. After following this thread, I agree with what was said earlier....these delays are being caused by CBP in Tampa...for whatever reason. By the way, I'm familiar with the database they use, so I'm not sure why they are fat-fingering the info opposed to scanning passports.

 

First off, not everyone has a passport, so they can't scan everyone, but not scanning those passports that are there may be some sort of "industrial action" to protest the sequestration, lack of overtime, and the whole "you must continue to work, and will get paid, but not paid right away" thing.

[Laszlo]

LOL, Gee this thread has became really complicated. And to think, as an upcoming cruiser on this ship, all I was interested in was am I going to have to pull up a piece of grass and plant myself for a while and was I going to have to find some very comfy lounger with my large travel mug of coffee to relax in while I waited to disembark with little chaos.

 

Now my head is spinning with all this extra knowledge that's attempting to enter my brain :eek: hahahaha Oh my, I really need a cruise more than ever now :D :D

 

Don't sweat it, just be ready to get off the ship ASAP if you can

[che5904]

Don't sweat it, just be ready to get off the ship ASAP if you can

 

Actually except for the stabilizers having issues (because I am prone to seasickness). Which I hope this delay in Tampa last night was because they were fixing them for good.

 

None of this has me concerned. Although I am very impatient person in life in general, on vacation I'm a pretty laid back person. I have a tendency to take most things in stride on vacation and concentrate on wonderful positive things. I think that comes from only being able to take 3 weeks vacation time in 20+ years. So I guess I really appreciate being off work and try not take any of it for granted.

 

As I pointed out previously from start to finish is about 162 hours so even if up to 8 hours of that time is standing in lineups. I still have over 150 hours to make a lifetime of memories. Nothing in life is perfect.

 

Maybe it's the way I view things but seriously I think these problems have been blown way out of proportion. And not taken in perspective.

[legion3]

This was our leaving the ship experience, on this last Dawn cruise.

 

The differences in arriving back in Tampa from the previous cruise in and out of Tampa were,

 

1. They did not call all non-US citizens to meet in a lounge to be cleared by customs and immigration. All my previous cruises did this. (open loop?)

 

2. After you departed the ship, everyone US and Non-US went through customs/immigration clearance (they had specific lines for US and Non-US persons to approach the Customs booths-the Us line was much longer and slow going.) Both line ended up at the same place.

 

This is where the slow down began. You waited for the next customs officer all the while being urged to close up and fill in all gaps in line by the port people. And occasionally being told to stop, wait here, move over and being directed, once at cross purposes, by port security and employees. But overall the lines while slow moved logically.

 

However if you took your luggage off yourself and were not handicapped you did have to roll your luggage down a narrow escelator which caused some issues at times. But this might be standard procedure at this terminal.

 

3.When we reached the customs officer (a total of 4 were processing people when we went through) he took passports and paperwork (kids birth certificates) Compared the photos to us, asked a few questions about my last name as they had known an agent in Customs with my name.

 

Then finger typed the info into the computer. They did not scan the passports that I noticed. He took one passport and keyboard entered it, took the second passport and entered it, then took one birth certificate, addressed my DD with some questions about enjoying the trip, put in her info, then took the other one and did the same routine. Then he stamped the customs dec and handed the whole works back and said. Done.

 

After this we had to go into the luggage area to retrieve our luggage, then go through a luggage check with a fruit and vegi sniffing dog and then answer some more questions if we had any such items and then turn in the customs dec and we were then outside!

 

The whole process for my family of 4 took about around 10 minutes or so at the first Customs stop, and 2 minutes or so at the other customs point.

 

The line took us an hour to get through to customs and again we were priority and were escorted past the main lines on the ship. Not sure how backed up it got after us.

 

It was much slower process then we have encountered from previous cruises returning to Tampa.

 

Anyway this was one view of the process.

 

Cheers

[chengkp75]

This was our leaving the ship experience, on this last Dawn cruise.

 

The differences in arriving back in Tampa from the previous cruise in and out of Tampa were,

 

1. They did not call all non-US citizens to meet in a lounge to be cleared by customs and immigration. All my previous cruises did this. (open loop?)Forget open loop. On your previous cruises, the non-US citizens had a normal full immigration check, and the US citizens had the modified check used for closed loop cruises in the Western Hemisphere.

 

2. After you departed the ship, everyone US and Non-US went through customs/immigration clearance (they had specific lines for US and Non-US persons to approach the Customs booths-the Us line was much longer and slow going.) Both line ended up at the same place.The embarkation of the new passengers in Cozumel changed the way the cruise was processed from a closed loop to a foreign cruise (not open loop). However, the WHTI allows that since the US citizens were on a closed loop cruise, they could use the BC/DL identification, but that the ship must be processed as a foreign cruise, so everyone goes through the full immigration check.

 

This is where the slow down began. You waited for the next customs officer all the while being urged to close up and fill in all gaps in line by the port people. And occasionally being told to stop, wait here, move over and being directed, once at cross purposes, by port security and employees. But overall the lines while slow moved logically.

 

However if you took your luggage off yourself and were not handicapped you did have to roll your luggage down a narrow escelator which caused some issues at times. But this might be standard procedure at this terminal.

 

3.When we reached the customs officer (a total of 4 were processing people when we went through) he took passports and paperwork (kids birth certificates) Compared the photos to us, asked a few questions about my last name as they had known an agent in Customs with my name. Write to Congress and tell them to get their act together and pass a budget.

 

Then finger typed the info into the computer. They did not scan the passports that I noticed. He took one passport and keyboard entered it, took the second passport and entered it, then took one birth certificate, addressed my DD with some questions about enjoying the trip, put in her info, then took the other one and did the same routine. Then he stamped the customs dec and handed the whole works back and said. Done.

 

After this we had to go into the luggage area to retrieve our luggage, then go through a luggage check with a fruit and vegi sniffing dog and then answer some more questions if we had any such items and then turn in the customs dec and we were then outside!

 

The whole process for my family of 4 took about around 10 minutes or so at the first Customs stop, and 2 minutes or so at the other customs point.

 

The line took us an hour to get through to customs and again we were priority and were escorted past the main lines on the ship. Not sure how backed up it got after us.

 

It was much slower process then we have encountered from previous cruises returning to Tampa.

 

Anyway this was one view of the process.

 

Cheers

 

Unfortunate, but NCL made a business decision that may not have been fully thought out, or was made prior to the sequestration and government shutdown.

[Chimaygrandcru]

I just got back from the sailing this week. Embarkation was a nightmare. First ncl was having issues with their notification process so some passengers got 3 phone calls and others (myself included) got none. We arrived at port at 11:45 and we were told about the 1pm boarding. Ncl checked our luggage and informed us of shuttles to the mall if we were interested. The weather was beautiful so we decided to pull up a piece of grass under a palm tree and watched a show on my iPad. Life was good. At about 12:15 the people at the escalators started letting people up. We slowly get our stuff together and headed up the elevators. This lead us to a line that was snaking around the building. We were all in a pretty good mood and just waiting to go in. Then we wait and wait. The line is not moving at all and there is no shade and no information. It is starting to get very hot in the full sun at 1pm and the sunscreen is all in the luggage. There were older couples that were trying to take turns in the line because of the heat and not being able to stand for long periods. There were kids in strollers that were getting overheated and sunburned. The line started to move very slowly at 1pm and the passengers who got the 1pm call started to arrive and the line looped around the building and back to the escalators. By this time people were very uncomfortable and getting angry. I was told that one older person did pass out, there was a fist fight between other passengers and kids were screaming. This caused a very physically and mentally uncomfortable situation. Most of us did try to keep a upbeat attitude but it was hard being so uncomfortable. At approximately 2:15 we hit the inside of the building and the shade and the mood of the people around us improved greatly. There were still lines but we were not being baked in the sun. We waited another 45 min to get checked in and went on the boat. We did talk to guests that had arrived at 1pm and they were not able to get on the ship til 5 pm.

 

The cruise was wonderful, the food was great and we enjoyed the ship. At the M&G the hotel manager told us about the customs issue and told us to get off the ship as early as possible.

 

Sunday morning I made my husband get up at 6 am to finish packing up and disembark. We left the cabin at 6:45 with our luggage to grab a latte at the java cafe and wait in the huge line I was expecting. When we reached the atrium we were directed out the door and down the ramp. I had to pull over to quickly fill out the declaration form that I was going to do in "the big line". The next thing I knew we were out the door at 7:10 and waiting for Hertz to open at 8. That was the fastest I have ever gotten off a ship. Obviously ncl was trying to get a jump on things and make things smoother.

 

My problem with this cruise was that ncl made a decision that caused us to be very physically uncomfortable for hours at the beginning of the trip. My trust with company has been shaken and I did not purchase a future cruise credit like I have in the past. It would be in their best interest to offer us some sort of credit towards a cruise to try to regain our trust. I work in retail and this would be standard practice for any of our customers that have been inconvenienced.

 

My suggestion for ncl would be to negotiate to be able to go outside of the building and put up the popup tents, water, cool towels and music like you do at the ports. This would help keep people cool and happy while waiting in line. You also need to get some contingencies if there is rain or lord forbid a thunder storm.

[gra2172]

You know, when I first started reading this thread, I freaked out a lot. But as I read it I get ideas on how to deal with it if its not cleared up by April. Seems like it should be, or business will really start hurting as they get a bad rep. People will spread the word and avoid this port, and in the end, NCL.

 

Ive added to my packing list, an umbrella to protect against sun or rain while in line and some water and snacks.

[jackparts]

Sorry, blown out of proportion it was not. NCL did not bother to call me and tell me to arrive at 1pm. They had the contact number from filling out the cruise docs so the only excuse was a lack of manpower or thoughtlessness. Since it is still happening, it must be the latter. Thoughtlessness. NCL did not even have water or juice outside til after11:45, let alone bathroom facilities. As far as showing up at the noon suggested normal showup time, you still would have had to wait outside til 2pm or longer. All the posts from those of us who have been subjected to the inefficiency and greed of NCL for the 70 passengers added, were negative. I understand that there are patient passengers, but until it has happened to you, you do not actually know how you would respond. I sincerely hope that it is fixed before you cruise, in fact, I hope its fixed by this weekend. NCL, your earlier post did not satisfy me, hope you can do better and be honest on what we can expect.

[legion3]

We were lucky as we never waited in the sun. We got into the building with the first batch inside and did our waiting in the zig - zag security line or queue if you prefer watching them do nothing but wait for the port computers to work.

 

But we watched from our room on Deck 12 as the line snaked around for all afternoon. We did see some ship's crew giving out OJ to those waiting, at what point this was I don't remember. Hopefully the Dec 8 people had no long line issues and had a better time of it.

[Laszlo]

I just called NCL about next fall and I'm waiting for a call back:roll eyes:

We want to sail the Sun on the same itinerary next October / November….however their is no way we are putting up with the stuff that is happening now. Once was enough…………….. I'm trying to find out if this will truly indeed be a closed loop or will the Sun also be taking on passengers in another port?

Edited December 9, 2013 by Laszlo

[r247]

I was on deck 4 a was noisy when i get to port every morning and the last day when they get all luggage. I have to call twice front desk because a strong odor coming at night from the porthole area and the bathroom, they come and say it was just a little bit :mad: i got so mad they did nothing. Almost every time i call room service the line was busy, beers and drinks too much $$ for me i prefer to go on port to the local town i drink for $1 or $2 beers and drinks. At day and night i hate every time i go and the garden cafe was closing one side or the whole restaurant and they send you to the blue lagoon where you get to eat like 10 items and every time i ask mac and chesse for my girls they told me it was a 30 minutes wait, i don't like the attitude on a few restaurant employees and when you was eating and they come and get your plate without asking. The housekeeping that clean my room almost every day knock at my door i scream im here and then he open the door asking me if i want him to clean my room i was like really im in the room can you please, he do the same thing 2 or 3 times. Then to get on the cruise on Tampa was like 3 plus hours the wait and to get out the same. :mad: I go twice on the sky at miami and is totally different so fast and good service.

Edited December 9, 2013 by r247