Cruise Passenger Assaulted on Holland America Cruise Ship

[hrhdhd]

This crime was committed by an individual...not a culture, not a religion, and most certainly not a race.

 

An individual is shaped in infinite ways by his or her culture, so there's no such thing as an individual WITHOUT a culture. Read the updated article: his rage was all about his perception that the woman insulted his family, and in his culture, that is not tolerated. Families must be defended.

 

(And making observations about certain general tendencies of a culture isn't racism.)

[Sow There]

This is very upsetting. My heart and prayers go out to the victim. May she recover completely from her physical and emotional trauma.

Kudos to HAL for being upfront about the situation. I know I would not be able to enjoy myself after hearing the news had I been onboard.

I find it odd that there haven't been any posts from passengers on this sailing.

Did I miss something?

 

Now that the facts are known, the situation cries out for thoughtfulness.

 

The perpetrator had a clean record and was just doing his job. Even his behaviour after being detained by HAL security was very honourable as he confessed and was totally compliant and open about his attack.

 

The entire incident was ignited by the victim's "son of a bitch" comment which the perpetrator took as a heinous insult directed at his mother.

 

Most of us would see that comment as a "throw-away" sign of incidental frustration. However it's not too difficult to understand how an Indonesian family man would see that comment as a very nasty personal insult to his mother.

 

The fact that he reacted so violently suggests that he was not only totally irrational but that he had no self control. Clearly he was not exposed to similar language nor did he have any understanding of typical western reactions to frustration.

 

He was apparently a typically nice guy who was respected by the passengers with whom he had contact and who commented on him earlier in this thread but whose propensity for violence was not displayed until this incident.

 

Hopefully the cultural differences between the Indonesian (and presumably Filipino) staff and the typical HAL customer are getting intense scrutiny by HAL management in order to better prepare staff in how to handle perceived insults and the significance of the differences.

 

As stated in the quoted post, the support and caring shown by the male passenger who came to her aid and stood by her throughout is wonderful and is what I would expect from most of HAL's customers with whom I've had contact over the years.

 

All that said, I agree with all who are suggesting the variety of precautionary actions we all should take when travelling, whether on a cruise or in other venues.

 

And, hopefully, the victim will come out of this most horrible experience in good health, physically, emotionally and psychologically.

 

Finally, no matter what the reason underlying his actions, it's clear that the perpetrator needs to be incarcerated for a long time to protect himself and others from any repeat.

[jimdalva]

[quote name=

 

 

Interesting. The story says he told his roommate he had almost killed a passenger and showered in his blood covered T-shirt, but the roommate did not call security until the accused agreed.[/quote]

 

If my roommate came in covered in blood and said he tried to kill someone,--- Then I would tread lightly too. I wouldn't want to be next.

[Cruising-along]

If my roommate came in covered in blood and said he tried to kill someone,--- Then I would tread lightly too. I wouldn't want to be next.

 

Or he could have quietly left the cabin while the man was in the shower, and reported it. :) Of course, that's easy for me to say, I don't know the circumstances.

 

Thank you Oceanwench for the news article. My heart goes out to this poor woman. I pray she gets the emotional help she will need, it will take a long time. :(

[artist47]

An individual is shaped in infinite ways by his or her culture, so there's no such thing as an individual WITHOUT a culture. Read the updated article: his rage was all about his perception that the woman insulted his family, and in his culture, that is not tolerated. Families must be defended.

 

(And making observations about certain general tendencies of a culture isn't racism.)

 

Agreed. The same people who are claiming this it is racist to make these observations about HIS culture, are also "observing" that the victim's alleged comment ("wait a minute...s.o.b.) are cultural and not intended to offend.

 

It works both ways.

 

And I am astonished at the number of people who blame the victim for this however indirectly by stating that if she hadn't said that, this wouldn't have happened. There is no excuse for what happened to this woman. Period. There is no justification, cultural or otherwise. This is an evil guy who lay in wait for her and who had a desire to dominate a woman and this was his opportunity. She is not to blame for this crime.

 

I also want to say that while it's great she fought back, it is not required of victims to fight back. Victims often do NOT fight back in order to save their lives.

Edited February 26, 2014 by artist47

[mafig]

Do we even know that the SOB comment was directed at him?

 

Maybe she just stubbed her toe, maybe she was looking for tip money, maybe she dropped something. I've often said "OH, fill in the blank" when I've been in the middle of an interesting thread on Cruise Critic and the doorbell rings.

 

Hope the victim recovers fully.

[artist47]

Do we even know that the SOB comment was directed at him?

 

Maybe she just stubbed her toe, maybe she was looking for tip money, maybe she dropped something. I've often said "OH, fill in the blank" when I've been in the middle of an interesting thread on Cruise Critic and the doorbell rings.

 

Hope the victim recovers fully.

 

Well, according to news reports, and reports of the criminal's confession, we only have HIM to believe on that. We don't even know that she actually said that. He is stating that she did. But none other than him, heard this.

[artist47]

Now that the facts are known, the situation cries out for thoughtfulness.

 

The perpetrator had a clean record and was just doing his job. Even his behaviour after being detained by HAL security was very honourable as he confessed and was totally compliant and open about his attack.

 

The entire incident was ignited by the victim's "son of a bitch" comment which the perpetrator took as a heinous insult directed at his mother.

 

Most of us would see that comment as a "throw-away" sign of incidental frustration. However it's not too difficult to understand how an Indonesian family man would see that comment as a very nasty personal insult to his mother.

 

The fact that he reacted so violently suggests that he was not only totally irrational but that he had no self control. Clearly he was not exposed to similar language nor did he have any understanding of typical western reactions to frustration.

 

He was apparently a typically nice guy who was respected by the passengers with whom he had contact and who commented on him earlier in this thread but whose propensity for violence was not displayed until this incident.

 

Hopefully the cultural differences between the Indonesian (and presumably Filipino) staff and the typical HAL customer are getting intense scrutiny by HAL management in order to better prepare staff in how to handle perceived insults and the significance of the differences.

 

As stated in the quoted post, the support and caring shown by the male passenger who came to her aid and stood by her throughout is wonderful and is what I would expect from most of HAL's customers with whom I've had contact over the years.

 

All that said, I agree with all who are suggesting the variety of precautionary actions we all should take when travelling, whether on a cruise or in other venues.

 

And, hopefully, the victim will come out of this most horrible experience in good health, physically, emotionally and psychologically.

 

Finally, no matter what the reason underlying his actions, it's clear that the perpetrator needs to be incarcerated for a long time to protect himself and others from any repeat.

 

 

I am sure you do not intend for this to read the way it does. One reading the comment I have bolded above, might take it to mean that you are blaming the victim for getting raped because she made a comment(that only he says she made...we do not know she actually said it.)

 

You sound like a nice person and a very thoughtful one. I really hope that's not what you meant.

Edited February 26, 2014 by artist47

[chrispb]

If my roommate came in covered in blood and said he tried to kill someone,--- Then I would tread lightly too. I wouldn't want to be next.

 

My thoughts exactly. I'd bide my time waiting for the right moment.

[Artemis908]

Do we even know that the SOB comment was directed at him?

 

I was thinking the SAME EXACT THING! There is a big difference between "One second, SOB!" and "One second. SOB". I think it's easy to confuse the two, especially if the person is in another room and English isn't your first language.

 

All in all though, I have never been on HAL, but this incident wouldn't stop me from cruising with them. I think they did all they could for the situation, I think they handled it well. It's an incredibly sad and disturbing thing to happen, but that's the kind of world we live in.

 

I know very little about where he comes from besides what I read here and that he is Indonesian. But I know in some countries violence against women is a common occurrence. People would pay no mind if a man killed a woman for talking back to him and insulting him. Just look at the news headlines of the violence against women happening in India and it's enough to make me thank God I was born in the US.

 

Have any of the reports mentioned if she was traveling alone?

[Sow There]

I am sure you do not intend for this to read the way it does. One reading the comment I have bolded above, might take it to mean that you are blaming the victim for getting raped because she made a comment(that only he says she made...we do not know she actually said it.)

 

You sound like a nice person and a very thoughtful one. I really hope that's not what you meant.

 

Methinks you are reading far too much into my comment.

 

What I said was an objective statement based on the news article, not an opinion.

 

The precipitating event was her utterance of "son of a bitch." Whether she should have said that or not was not raised as even a suggestion.

 

I know when I'm busy and the doorbell rings more than once, chances are I'll say something more harsh but the comment by me is not intended for anyone at all.

 

No blame should be ascribed to the victim. PERIOD.

[Tampa Girl]

 

And I am astonished at the number of people who blame the victim for this however indirectly by stating that if she hadn't said that, this wouldn't have happened. There is no excuse for what happened to this woman. Period. There is no justification, cultural or otherwise. This is an evil guy who lay in wait for her and who had a desire to dominate a woman and this was his opportunity. She is not to blame for this crime.

 

I also want to say that while it's great she fought back, it is not required of victims to fight back. Victims often do NOT fight back in order to save their lives.

 

 

I think you are misinterpreting some of the posters. No one is saying, directly or indirectly, that the victim was to blame because of what she might have said or to whom it was said. They are simply stating a fact; that this very unfortunately incident might not have occurred if the steward had not heard the words "S.O.B." and thought that it was directed at him. That is not putting the blame on the victim. Any more than it is putting the blame on someone who wanders inadvertently into a domestic brawl and also becomes a victim.

[swedish weave]

I was thinking the SAME EXACT THING! There is a big difference between "One second, SOB!" and "One second. SOB". I think it's easy to confuse the two, especially if the person is in another room and English isn't your first language.

 

All in all though, I have never been on HAL, but this incident wouldn't stop me from cruising with them. I think they did all they could for the situation, I think they handled it well. It's an incredibly sad and disturbing thing to happen, but that's the kind of world we live in.

 

I know very little about where he comes from besides what I read here and that he is Indonesian. But I know in some countries violence against women is a common occurrence. People would pay no mind if a man killed a woman for talking back to him and insulting him. Just look at the news headlines of the violence against women happening in India and it's enough to make me thank God I was born in the US.

 

Have any of the reports mentioned if she was traveling alone?

 

As info ---- One in five women in the USA have reported being sexually abused in a survey.

 

I think those who are disparaging the Indonesian culture because of this incident are wrong. An individual did this crime and he alone is responsible for it.

Edited February 26, 2014 by swedish weave

[hrhdhd]

As info ---- One in five women in the USA have reported being sexually abused in a survey.

 

I think those who are disparaging the Indonesian culture because of this incident are wrong. An individual did this crime and he alone is responsible for it.

 

As info: http://unwomen-asiapacific.org/docs/WhyDoSomeMenUseViolenceAgainstWomen_P4P_Report.pdf

 

No one is disparaging the Indonesian culture. We are noting that culture influences values and norms. For everyone, including Indonesians.

[OCruisers]

Does anyone have updates on the current condition of the assaulted woman?

 

LuLu

[serendipity1499]

Does anyone have updates on the current condition of the assaulted woman?

 

LuLu

 

Doubt very much that we will ever have an update due to the privacy rules..

[cinnamon123]

The er doctor said in all his 40 yrs he never saw anyone so beaten

Para phrasing

She almost died

God bless the passenger who stayed with her through out. He would not leave her

He was her guardian angel

I'm boarding the n/a in 4 weeks & this has rocked me to my core

I'm praying for this young lady

Cinnamon123

[sjn911]

As info: http://unwomen-asiapacific.org/docs/WhyDoSomeMenUseViolenceAgainstWomen_P4P_Report.pdf

 

No one is disparaging the Indonesian culture. We are noting that culture influences values and norms. For everyone, including Indonesians.

 

 

Yes, agree. Well stated.

[OCruisers]

The er doctor said in all his 40 yrs he never saw anyone so beaten

Para phrasing

She almost died

God bless the passenger who stayed with her through out. He would not leave her

He was her guardian angel

I'm boarding the n/a in 4 weeks & this has rocked me to my core

I'm praying for this young lady

Cinnamon123

 

Feel the same. The man who stayed with her was a special person. All we can do is hope this young lady recovers .... :(

 

LuLu

[sjn911]

The er doctor said in all his 40 yrs he never saw anyone so beaten

Para phrasing

She almost died

God bless the passenger who stayed with her through out. He would not leave her

He was her guardian angel

I'm boarding the n/a in 4 weeks & this has rocked me to my core

I'm praying for this young lady

Cinnamon123

 

Don't hesitate to ask someone to check cabin with you if alone until you get your barrings or for every return in the evening. When this issue started getting bad on my undergrad campus 77-81..they finally started initiating escort service so girls did not have to walk alone...so sad..it was such a small seemingly safe school...this is just a wake up call to the truth...you will adjust and still have a wonderful time....with folks or alone...have a wonderful trip..prayers to you and yes for this woman. And healing to all involved .

Edited February 27, 2014 by sjn911

[jimdalva]

Don't hesitate to ask someone to check cabin with you if alone until you get your barrings or for every return in the evening. When this issue started getting bad on my undergrad campus 77-81..they finally started initiating escort service so girls did not have to walk alone...so sad..it was such a small seemingly safe school...this is just a wake up call to the truth...you will adjust and still have a wonderful time....with folks or alone...have a wonderful trip..prayers to you and yes for this woman. And healing to all involved .

 

Did you have Indonsians running around your campus? NO -- Bad things happen everywhere to everyone, by anyone. Be carefull but live your life.

[cinnamon123]

Thanks for the good advice regarding being escorted to my cabin.

I'm going to put little bells on the door handles so Ill know if the door opens.

I have these at Christmas time.

Ya know, just a thought, but the crew must feel terrible about this also.

They must feel uncomfortable when pax look at them.

Wishing all a safe & wonderful cruise.

Cinnamon123

[sjn911]

Did you have Indonsians running around your campus? NO -- Bad things happen everywhere to everyone, by anyone. Be carefull but live your life.

 

Truly...this is not about any one group being bad....it is about possibility of culture class...sometimes being a part of an issue...whether it was it was not here still unknown until proven..we have clues that brought up the issue.

 

It simply has brought up a deeper awareness to some,,,many take huge silent risks of personal courage all the time beyond belief..after surviving those bad things,,in isolation....others are just becoming aware and one needs to go with extra eyes for awhile for some...Sarah

 

"Did you have Indonsians running around your campus? NO"....Many other groups and studied abroad in France during first Iranian hostage situation, our school group had to meet off champus in undisclosed situation to finish.. It was just bad frat guys in home college.

 

It was just bad cowboys here.. I have worked some with the issue is all.

Edited February 27, 2014 by sjn911

[sjn911]

Thanks for the good advice regarding being escorted to my cabin.

I'm going to put little bells on the door handles so Ill know if the door opens.

I have these at Christmas time.

Ya know, just a thought, but the crew must feel terrible about this also.

They must feel uncomfortable when pax look at them.

Wishing all a safe & wonderful cruise.

Cinnamon123

 

 

Wishing you the same...it will just be great just extra caution and feelings will be there for a bit and yes so many of the servers will feel so terrible about this.

 

Holland has a great opportunity to do some common awareness things and a few exta options offered to solo passengers for a bit..it will be more safe now...even more than it was..this just rings bells...make many good memories...sarah

[cbr663]

Interesting reading from the GAO on cruise line reporting of crime and the implementation of safety regulations since the sinking of the Concordia. Great reading on the types of crimes that are required to be reported to the FBI and discussions on the discrepancy with the crimes reported and the numbers made public (more than 3x crime reported as made public)

 

http://www.gao.gov/assets/660/659897.pdf

 

The report also notes that many cruise lines have begun to voluntarily report stats of alleged crimes that occur on its ships. Here is the link for Carnival's Voluntary Reporting of Alleged Crime across all its brands: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=140690&p=irol-voluntaryreport