Cruise Passenger Assaulted on Holland America Cruise Ship

[EbayCruiser]

This thread needs to be removed. I can't believe people are still posting about this@!!!!

[SPacificbound]

Agree!

[innlady1]

I totally agree. Perhaps Host Walt will close it...and let it fade away.

[Hlitner]

While we can understand that many are bored and tired of this entire topic, we find ourselves more in disagreement with those that have an attitude that says "since I no longer want to read about it...it should be removed or closed!" Perhaps the better approach would be that those who do not see any more reason to read (or discuss) this topic should just stop clicking and reading the posts.

 

In fact, CC has even seen fit to provide "thread tools" among which is an option to "unsubscribe to this thread" which will put it off your radar. Not sure why some folks see the need for board censorship on a very contemporary topic which is still being talked about on various news media (we actually heard it brought up on another TV news show yesterday).

 

Hank

[BeagleOne]

Very well put, Hank!

[RoamingRetirees]

While we can understand that many are bored and tired of this entire topic, we find ourselves more in disagreement with those that have an attitude that says "since I no longer want to read about it...it should be removed or closed!" Perhaps the better approach would be that those who do not see any more reason to read (or discuss) this topic should just stop clicking and reading the posts.

 

In fact, CC has even seen fit to provide "thread tools" among which is an option to "unsubscribe to this thread" which will put it off your radar. Not sure why some folks see the need for board censorship on a very contemporary topic which is still being talked about on various news media (we actually heard it brought up on another TV news show yesterday).

 

Hank

 

My thoughts exactly!

[Mary Ellen]

Very well put, Hank.

 

I always get a big chuckle when anyone posts (on other threads too) that a thread should be allowed to die/fade away. Do they not realize that they are actually keeping the thread alive by posting to it and bringing the thread to the top of the forum - again? :rolleyes:

[Aquahound]

Agree with all of your post...except I have read that he is pleading not guilty. Which is interesting considering his detailed confession.

 

Pleading Not Guilty does not mean he is actually putting forth a not-guilty argument. Pleading Not Guilty gives the subject and his lawyers time to see all the discovery, conduct depositions, research all the legal angles to cases like this, and negotiate plea deals. I'm only guessing, but he will likely enter a change of plea down the road.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Aquahound

[innlady1]

Very well put, Hank.

 

I always get a big chuckle when anyone posts (on other threads too) that a thread should be allowed to die/fade away. Do they not realize that they are actually keeping the thread alive by posting to it and bringing the thread to the top of the forum - again? :rolleyes:

 

Yes...I do realize that. And never bring a thread up for that reason. However, this was already in the top spot when I posted. Or close to it!

 

Having said that, Host Walt stated that speculation about the case is inappropriate. One way to prevent that would be to just let it die.

[Aquahound]

Was Defendant arrested by Broward County Sheriffs or FBI?

It is a Federal case as it was brought before a Federal Grand Jury to seek indictment.

 

He was arrested by the FBI, with the blessing of the U.S. Attorney's Office.

 

What determines that it is a federal court case? What actually determined it to be a US case....is it because the port it left from was in the US?

 

There are multiple jurisdictional considerations on cruise ships...embark/debark points, next port of call, citizenship of subject/victim, flag state, location of crime, etc, etc...

 

In this case, the victim is a U.S. citizen and the U.S. was the next port of call. Plus, the cruise embarked/debarked in the U.S, and the alleged crime ocurred on the high seas. For these reasons, the FBI is designated as case lead. There are other agencies that have the authority to assist and even take lead if necessary (like Coast Guard Investigative Service), but FBI has first right of refusal.

[sackman]

He was arrested by the FBI, with the blessing of the U.S. Attorney's Office.

 

 

 

There are multiple jurisdictional considerations on cruise ships...embark/debark points, next port of call, citizenship of subject/victim, flag state, location of crime, etc, etc...

 

In this case, the victim is a U.S. citizen and the U.S. was the next port of call. Plus, the cruise embarked/debarked in the U.S, and the alleged crime ocurred on the high seas. For these reasons, the FBI is designated as case lead. There are other agencies that have the authority to assist and even take lead if necessary (like Coast Guard Investigative Service), but FBI has first right of refusal.

 

 

Thanks. I was very curious about how the legal system worked in this situation.

[sail7seas]

He was arrested by the FBI, with the blessing of the U.S. Attorney's Office.

 

 

 

There are multiple jurisdictional considerations on cruise ships...embark/debark points, next port of call, citizenship of subject/victim, flag state, location of crime, etc, etc...

 

In this case, the victim is a U.S. citizen and the U.S. was the next port of call. Plus, the cruise embarked/debarked in the U.S, and the alleged crime ocurred on the high seas. For these reasons, the FBI is designated as case lead. There are other agencies that have the authority to assist and even take lead if necessary (like Coast Guard Investigative Service), but FBI has first right of refusal.

 

 

Thanks, Aquahound.

I, too, am interested in the legal process for this case thus all my comments and questions.

 

[sammiedawg]

This thread should stay open indefinitely so we can follow the victims recovery and the legal outcome.

[AlohaPride]

He was arrested by the FBI, with the blessing of the U.S. Attorney's Office.

 

 

 

There are multiple jurisdictional considerations on cruise ships...embark/debark points, next port of call, citizenship of subject/victim, flag state, location of crime, etc, etc...

 

In this case, the victim is a U.S. citizen and the U.S. was the next port of call. Plus, the cruise embarked/debarked in the U.S, and the alleged crime ocurred on the high seas. For these reasons, the FBI is designated as case lead. There are other agencies that have the authority to assist and even take lead if necessary (like Coast Guard Investigative Service), but FBI has first right of refusal.

 

I just hate the idea of paying for this guy for however long he's incarcerated. Then again, I hate that we share the same air...

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy

[Hlitner]

Since there are some that want to keep this topic alive, lets take it to a new level. After all, we know this poor victim was badly beaten and raped, we know who did it (he confessed) and we know how he got in her cabin (he had a master key). The justice system will deal with these issues and that is the end of that! But the lingering question is what can HAL (or any cruise line) do to better protect passengers from similar situations? Now I have drawn a conclusion based on many years at sea (on over 65 different ships)..and the answer will not please anyone. For I do not think that the cruise lines can do much more to prevent these rare crimes. HAL already does criminal checks on their crew (or so they say) plus crew go through various interviews. No interview process is perfect and it is sometimes impossible to know what is in a person's mind or heart. So then we can look to the door locks. Marine safety rules require that multiple members of the crew have the ability to enter any cabin at any time. This is just the reality of being on a ship, and the crew having the ability to quickly "clear" each cabin in the event of an emergency. Some have raised the issue of balcony doors, but this is really not that important since this crew member could have simply waited inside the cabin for the lady to return. So after thinking about this for a few weeks we have absolutely no practical solution. We live in a world where bad people do bad things...often without any warning. This sure sounds like one of those cases. There will probably be the usual civil action (lawsuit) and HALs insurance carrier and the cruise line will probably come to some settlement agreement. But the reality is that there does not seem to be any reasonable way to prevent such a nut case from committing a horrid crime. Very frustrating.

 

Hank

Edited March 11, 2014 by Hlitner

[RoamingRetirees]

Since there are some that want to keep this topic alive, lets take it to a new level. After all, we know this poor victim was badly beaten and raped, we know who did it (he confessed) and we know how he got in her cabin (he had a master key). The justice system will deal with these issues and that is the end of that! But the lingering question is what can HAL (or any cruise line) do to better protect passengers from similar situations? Now I have drawn a conclusion based on many years at sea (on over 65 different ships)..and the answer will not please anyone. For I do not think that the cruise lines can do much more to prevent these rare crimes. HAL already does criminal checks on their crew (or so they say) plus crew go through various interviews. No interview process is perfect and it is sometimes impossible to know what is in a person's mind or heart. So then we can look to the door locks. Marine safety rules require that multiple members of the crew have the ability to enter any cabin at any time. This is just the reality of being on a ship, and the crew having the ability to quickly "clear" each cabin in the event of an emergency. Some have raised the issue of balcony doors, but this is really not that important since this crew member could have simply waited inside the cabin for the lady to return. So after thinking about this for a few weeks we have absolutely no practical solution. We live in a world where bad people do bad things...often without any warning. This sure sounds like one of those cases. There will probably be the usual civil action (lawsuit) and HALs insurance carrier and the cruise line will probably come to some settlement agreement. But the reality is that there does not seem to be any reasonable way to prevent such a nut case from committing a horrid crime. Very frustrating.

 

Hank

 

The same thing could happen in a hotel room.

[iancal]

It could very easily happen in your own home. And my guess is that the stats will show that it has a higher probability of occurring in your own home than it does on a cruise ship.

 

There are fruit cakes everywhere, but I suspect a higher percentage of them are on land than at sea.

Edited March 11, 2014 by iancal

[Aquahound]

Hank, you hit the nail on the head. Everything can be done right, but a few bad apples always fall through the cracks. Same way a police force can get bad cops or an airline can get bad pilots. You hope they can be weeded out early before anything bad happens, but every now and then it takes something catastrophic.

 

I also don't know what else can be done by the cruise line other than pay close attention to warning signs, like short fuses or stress. Perhaps this is an argument for shorter contracts.

[pris993]

It could very easily happen in your own home. And my guess is that the stats will show that it has a higher probability of occurring in your own home than it does on a cruise ship.

 

There are fruit cakes everywhere, but I suspect a higher percentage of them are on land than at sea.

 

You hit the nail on the head, this can happen any where. Recently I had a dear friend, who lives in a rural area who was attached in her own home by a farm hand on "drugs". I actually read about the attack in a local newspaper and thought I need to warn my friend since I never dreamed it could have happened to her, since she has a number of dogs on her farm. My friend is fine, even though she is 67 and the attacher was 32, she managed to fight him off fairly well and reason with him since she knew him so she got him out of her house and he passed out on the drugs. He was still passed out when the police arrived and arrested him.

[MasterNotCommander]

Since there are some that want to keep this topic alive, lets take it to a new level. After all, we know this poor victim was badly beaten and raped, we know who did it (he confessed) and we know how he got in her cabin (he had a master key). The justice system will deal with these issues and that is the end of that! But the lingering question is what can HAL (or any cruise line) do to better protect passengers from similar situations? Now I have drawn a conclusion based on many years at sea (on over 65 different ships)..and the answer will not please anyone. For I do not think that the cruise lines can do much more to prevent these rare crimes. HAL already does criminal checks on their crew (or so they say) plus crew go through various interviews. No interview process is perfect and it is sometimes impossible to know what is in a person's mind or heart. So then we can look to the door locks. Marine safety rules require that multiple members of the crew have the ability to enter any cabin at any time. This is just the reality of being on a ship, and the crew having the ability to quickly "clear" each cabin in the event of an emergency. Some have raised the issue of balcony doors, but this is really not that important since this crew member could have simply waited inside the cabin for the lady to return. So after thinking about this for a few weeks we have absolutely no practical solution. We live in a world where bad people do bad things...often without any warning. This sure sounds like one of those cases. There will probably be the usual civil action (lawsuit) and HALs insurance carrier and the cruise line will probably come to some settlement agreement. But the reality is that there does not seem to be any reasonable way to prevent such a nut case from committing a horrid crime. Very frustrating.

 

Hank

 

Interestingly, when I was recruited as a Deck Officer for HAL a little over 8 years ago, I don't recall providing a security clearance. I did answer a questionnaire stating that I didn't have any criminal convictions but that was the limit. I was immediately provided a master key/soft key for all cabins, and had access to an emergency master key (Hard key of which three exist on board if I recall which works when the soft key batteries die or can open the door even if its double locked from inside which the soft key cannot do). The use of soft keys can be tracked by downloading the data in the vinglock.

But that being said, I generally felt that HAL was very professional on board and encouraged the best behaviour in staff at all times, the discipline process was also very clear on gross misconduct breaches (no second chances). Of course I have been gone from HAL a few years now, but I assume it's still the same.

[Boatdrill]

Interestingly, when I was recruited as a Deck Officer for HAL a little over 8 years ago, I don't recall providing a security clearance.

 

I believe it's written in the offer of employment from HAL that they have the right and option to do background checks. So one could have been done without your knowledge ?

Edited March 11, 2014 by Boatdrill

[MasterNotCommander]

I believe it's written in the offer of employment from HAL that they have the right and option to do background checks. So one could have been done without your knowledge ?

 

I can't speak for the Indonesians or Filipinos, but in the UK the background checks by employers from the national police database has two possible methods, but both require some form of action by the candidate (so no it can't be done without knowledge).

[cbr663]

Background checks in Canada also require the candidate's consent. Keep in mind that there are different types of background checks, with the validity of the entire process based on the availability of accurate information from the country of origin. A criminal records check itself is rarely considered a thorough background check. Unless a company provides transparent information regarding the depth and breadth of its background checks, merely stating that it does background checks doesn't tell us much.

Edited March 11, 2014 by cbr663

[serendipity1499]

While we can understand that many are bored and tired of this entire topic, we find ourselves more in disagreement with those that have an attitude that says "since I no longer want to read about it...it should be removed or closed!" Perhaps the better approach would be that those who do not see any more reason to read (or discuss) this topic should just stop clicking and reading the posts.

 

In fact, CC has even seen fit to provide "thread tools" among which is an option to "unsubscribe to this thread" which will put it off your radar. Not sure why some folks see the need for board censorship on a very contemporary topic which is still being talked about on various news media (we actually heard it brought up on another TV news show yesterday).

 

Hank

 

Since there are some that want to keep this topic alive, lets take it to a new level. After all, we know this poor victim was badly beaten and raped, we know who did it (he confessed) and we know how he got in her cabin (he had a master key). The justice system will deal with these issues and that is the end of that! But the lingering question is what can HAL (or any cruise line) do to better protect passengers from similar situations? Now I have drawn a conclusion based on many years at sea (on over 65 different ships)..and the answer will not please anyone. For I do not think that the cruise lines can do much more to prevent these rare crimes. HAL already does criminal checks on their crew (or so they say) plus crew go through various interviews. No interview process is perfect and it is sometimes impossible to know what is in a person's mind or heart. So then we can look to the door locks. Marine safety rules require that multiple members of the crew have the ability to enter any cabin at any time. This is just the reality of being on a ship, and the crew having the ability to quickly "clear" each cabin in the event of an emergency. Some have raised the issue of balcony doors, but this is really not that important since this crew member could have simply waited inside the cabin for the lady to return. So after thinking about this for a few weeks we have absolutely no practical solution. We live in a world where bad people do bad things...often without any warning. This sure sounds like one of those cases. There will probably be the usual civil action (lawsuit) and HALs insurance carrier and the cruise line will probably come to some settlement agreement. But the reality is that there does not seem to be any reasonable way to prevent such a nut case from committing a horrid crime. Very frustrating.

 

Hank

 

This thread was at the top of the page this a.m. & I'm also posting on it..

 

Hank Thank you for being the voice of reason!

 

I disagree with those who want it closed or to let it die.. We can't sweep this under the rug ..There are new posters joining Cruise Critic every day, who believe that Psgrs & Crew on Cruise Ships & Planes are always upstanding- honest people who would never commit a crime..:(

 

We all should be aware of what can happen not only in our daily lives but also while on vacation.. When I worked in the International Airline business & travelled I was horrified when Psgrs would let their children wander aimlessly about the cabin & sit next to other Psgrs to talk, while the Parents read or watched a movie..

 

But I too was young & innocent when I first started to travel & probably could have gotten into serious problems if I had not stuck with my travelling companions.. I can remember a time when I was in my 20's & three of us rented a jeep in Mexico.. We met some young men who seemed nice.. They invited us up into their home in the mountains.. The party was in full swing when we got there, but when the drinking seemed to get out of hand, & the party goers started to get rough, we were smart enough to hightail it out of there..Thank goodness the three of us stuck together & took our rented jeep! Driving in the mountains of Acapulco was no picnic either ..We all breathed a sigh of relief when we found our way back to our hotel..

 

I'm also appalled that any parent would go on a tour in port & leave their children on board in a children's program which permits the children to sign themselves out..

 

IMO if this thread wakes up one parent & helps others to be aware of their surroundings when on vacation then it should be at the top of the page!

 

Someone on this board started a thread asking about getting up in the middle of the night & finding a safe place to read on board while their companion is still asleep in the cabin.. Take a look at some of the responses..One Poster felt very un-comfortable while she was trying to read by the pool..She left the area & found a place near the front office, where other people were around.. That was a smart move on her part..

 

Betty

Edited March 11, 2014 by serendipity1499

[sail7seas]

Good post, Betty. Thank you.

 

I remember years ago on a Maasdam cruise, middle of the night, our toilet was out of order. DH was asleep and I needed a working toilet. I left the cabin on my own to go aft to Navigation Pool area where I knew there were public restrooms. Our cabin was on Navigation Deck.

 

I used the restroom and was considering sitting for a bit in the quiet of the open air pool and enjoying the Caribbean air when I got a 'pit of my stomach' queasiness that I listened to. Suddenly for the first time ever on any ship, any cruise line, I felt unsafe and I hurried back to our cabin. I never left the cabin alone again in the quiet middle of the night. Like anywhere else, I don't think it wise for a woman to be wandering alone in the middle of the night.

 

When your 'gut' talks to you, listen.

Edited March 11, 2014 by sail7seas