Service Animals on Celebrity Ship?

[Windsailer]

This is a perfect discussion for Celebrity's Facebook page. Celebrity would do something about it then.

[GOLDENBONNY]

This is a perfect discussion for Celebrity's Facebook page. Celebrity would do something about it then.

 

 

If they don't we will see more and more "service" dogs on board :mad:

[waterbug123]

Actually the cruise lines do follow the ADA rules for service animals.

 

Agree. I have read if a ship sails, visits or debarks from a U.S port then they have to follow the law on service animals. There is a thread

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2004541&highlight=service+animal

over on the Oceania board about a guest who had his service animal refused by the cruise line because the ship was not leaving from a U.S port.

 

I'm familiar with that thread. I guess my confusion cruises that depart from the US is whether the cruise lines voluntarily comply with ADA or whether they are truly legally required to do so. They do not, for instance, have to comply with US minimum wage laws, so I just wonder where the line is drawn as far as which US laws foreign flagged ships must adhere to and which they can choose not to follow.

 

My original point though was more about the cruise lines allowing emotional support animals. Those animals are NOT covered under the ADA so I think when Celebrity or whoever says they have to allow them, it's just that they don't want the person to make a stink about it and cause bad PR for the line.

[waterbug123]

Just couldn't keep quiet! I have been raising puppies for a guide dog school for the past 20 years...need to socialize the puppies so they can become well behaved service dogs that are allowed in all public places.

 

For the last 10 or so years "fake" service dogs has become such a problem I've been asked to leave with my puppy because the stores can't tell which animals are legit!

 

If the puppies are actually performing as a service animal they cannot ask you to leave. But if they are not actually serving as a service animal and are just getting socialized, the store might be within their rights to ask you to leave, regardless of the reason.

 

That is just it: they are NOT in a difficult position. All they have to do is issue a simple one page set of clear cut rules for the animal on board and if the passenger and their animal cannot comply the the animal cannot go. The line is SO afraid of a lawsuit and negative publicity that they allow this bad behavior to the detriment of the health and safety of the other passengers. Exactly! And it's ridiculous.

 

Number one priority: the dog gets ONE accident and after that if it is found to be using any area other than their approved litter box for elimination you are OFF the boat. No ifs ands or buts.

 

 

I'm not 100% certain but I believe the ADA laws regarding service animals specify that the animal CAN be asked to leave if they do not behave properly (don't follow commands, bark, jump, defecate inside etc.) Again though, I've never heard of a properly trained, legitimate SERVICE animal having these issues. It's the "comfort" or "support" animals that are ill-behaved and by law don't have to be allowed on board in the first place since they aren't service animals.

[Clydesmom7865]

If the puppies are actually performing as a service animal they cannot ask you to leave. But if they are not actually serving as a service animal and are just getting socialized, the store might be within their rights to ask you to leave, regardless of the reason.

 

Most people who raise puppies for future service dog roles put a service training bandanna on them and have a set list of stores they use to take them to to socialize them and train certain public behaviors. The stores are typically aware that the person actively engages in training young dogs for this purpose so it usually is not too much of an issue.

 

I have a friend who does this and she uses smaller businesses at specific days/times. Rarely does she encounter a new employee who is unaware of their role and challenges them. It it usually quickly resolved when the owner/manager educates them on the training of future service dogs.

 

It's the "comfort" or "support" animals that are ill-behaved and by law don't have to be allowed on board in the first place since they aren't service animals.

 

There in lies the problem: comfort/support animals are NOT service animals. This is why there needs to be rigid guidelines and laws in place that legitimate service animals have been raised and TRAINED specifically for providing assistance to an individual with a identified need. An organization needs to be registered with the appropriate state agency for the disabled in their state as recognized in training and placing service animals. If your animal did not come from one of those recognized training groups then it is NOT a service dog and therefore airlines, cruise lines, and any other business does not have to accommodate your peeing barking chihuahua because you can't bear to leave Fluffy at home while you travel.

[NLH Arizona]

There in lies the problem: comfort/support animals are NOT service animals. This is why there needs to be rigid guidelines and laws in place that legitimate service animals have been raised and TRAINED specifically for providing assistance to an individual with a identified need. An organization needs to be registered with the appropriate state agency for the disabled in their state as recognized in training and placing service animals. If your animal did not come from one of those recognized training groups then it is NOT a service dog and therefore airlines, cruise lines, and any other business does not have to accommodate your peeing barking chihuahua because you can't bear to leave Fluffy at home while you travel.

The problem lies in the law. As of now, the owner of a true service dog does not have to show any documentation that the dog is a service dog, all they have to do is say it is and answer the two questions that are allowed. Many "service animal" organizations are trying to get this changed, because they are just a concerned with the posers as we are. Anyone with a true service dog would not have an issue with having to show some sort of documentation. The only problem I would see with this, is that with current technology, the posers would just make up their own documentation and we are still in the same position, but with probably less poser dogs. What we need is for some of these posers to be fined and for it to get on the news shows, so that those that lie about having a service dog can see what the consequences are.

[3dog]

My original point though was more about the cruise lines allowing emotional support animals. Those animals are NOT covered under the ADA so I think when Celebrity or whoever says they have to allow them, it's just that they don't want the person to make a stink about it and cause bad PR for the line.

 

I think that predominantly it is a lack of understanding of the laws, as well as the cruise line's own policy.

 

The ADA guidelines states that a service animal must be under control; by a leash, harness, etc. unless this prevents the animal from performing it's task; it must be housebroken; and it cannot be disruptive (e.g. excessive barking) unless this is the service it is to perform. The latter implies that barking must be investigated, and if found to be outside of it's service, the animal may be excluded as being disruptive.

 

For the most part, Celebrity should adhere to their own policy (and make sure that guest relations staff is clear on this policy and ADA guidelines):

 

http://www.celebritycruises.com/onboard/serviceAnimals.do?pagename=onboard_service_animals

[3dog]

There in lies the problem: comfort/support animals are NOT service animals. This is why there needs to be rigid guidelines and laws in place that legitimate service animals have been raised and TRAINED specifically for providing assistance to an individual with a identified need. An organization needs to be registered with the appropriate state agency for the disabled in their state as recognized in training and placing service animals. If your animal did not come from one of those recognized training groups then it is NOT a service dog and therefore airlines, cruise lines, and any other business does not have to accommodate your peeing barking chihuahua because you can't bear to leave Fluffy at home while you travel.

 

Though true that ESA's are not SA's (by law, not just opinion), it is more complicated to legislate the difference. But it is much easier to legislate appropriate behavior. Many local animal control regulations specifically state that service animals are not exempt from excessive noise or other public nuisance regulations, so there is plenty of precedence.

 

So for the cruise line, it really is easy to solve this problem: enforce your own policy and apply the ADA 2011 guidelines:

A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the dog is out of control and the handler does not take effective action to control it or (2) the dog is not housebroken. When there is a legitimate reason to ask that a service animal be removed, staff must offer the person with the disability the opportunity to obtain goods or services without the animal’s presence.

 

If the animal is barking excessively or defecating in inappropriate areas (the X policy I previously referenced states the lawn is not an appropriate animal bathroom), it is no longer under control, and violates the policy and laws (not to mention being a nuisance to some larger set of "paying" customers).

[Clydesmom7865]

Though true that ESA's are not SA's (by law, not just opinion), it is more complicated to legislate the difference. But it is much easier to legislate appropriate behavior. Many local animal control regulations specifically state that service animals are not exempt from excessive noise or other public nuisance regulations, so there is plenty of precedence.

 

I disagree that it is more difficult to legislate the difference. A simple law stating that if the dog is not obtained from an authorized business that is recognized by the state and ADA as training and providing service animals then it is NOT a service animal but a companion or comfort animal A.K.A. A PET.

 

The problem is that those self absorbed idiots whose untrained animal is being taken where it doesn't belong will screech the loudest when you try to apply the law or rules of behavior to them. They count on the business not wanting the negative attention.

 

Case and point of a legitimate service dog and its owner being treated badly in violation of the law:

 

http://article.wn.com/view/2014/04/25/Disabled_man_sues_McDonalds_over_confrontation/

 

Robert Mingo, 52, who uses a wheelchair, is seeking unspecified damages as a result of his treatment at the Minneapolis franchise. Mingo's lawsuit says he was kicked out of the McDonald's last May after a manager demanded documentation that his service dog was legitimate. The Border Collie-Springer Spaniel mix named Max helps Mingo with daily activities

 

Mingo said he also visited the same restaurant in August 2012 and was told at the counter that the dog prevented him from being served. And when he rolled up to the drive-through, he was also told he could not be served, according to the lawsuit.

 

This guy has a legitimate reason to sue as he was discriminated against by a major chain that KNOWS BETTER. He didn't even kick up a public fuss he quietly left and got a lawyer. It is the obnoxious people who can't live without their pets that will generate the negative attention to get what they want.

 

The bottom line is if the dog is pushed around in a stroller it is a companion animal and nothing more and has NO business on a cruise ship or any other public business because it is not performing ANY service to the owner other than as a pet. Until we as a society stop allowing these self absorbed elitists push us around this behavior will not only continue it will get WORSE.

[4cats4me]

Just couldn't keep quiet! I have been raising puppies for a guide dog school for the past 20 years and the subject makes my blood boil. This has become a huge problem for those of us that need to socialize the puppies so they can become well behaved service dogs that are allowed in all public places.

 

For the last 10 or so years "fake" service dogs has become such a problem I've been asked to leave with my puppy because the stores can't tell which animals are legit! There are many kinds of service dogs, in fact Dogs for Diabetics was started by one of our schools leaders. One night his guide dog pup randomly alerted him when his blood sugar was low, so that person actually started the program and uses some of our career changed pups in his program. Career changed dogs from our school also go to dogs for the deaf programs and other service dog programs. Some use small shelter dogs and some people do train their own service dogs, so it's sometimes hard to tell which are true service dogs for someone with a real disability and which are pampered pets!

 

I've seen enough of those so called "service dogs" in strollers and report them to management when I can, trying to educate that you can indeed ask what the dog is trained to do.

 

Off my soap box, I have to return my current puppy tomorrow to start her training and hopefully she will become a well behaved, useful service dog!

 

 

 

I know exactly who you are referring to. I had the pleasure to learn a lot last year from M.R. I learned so much about the dogs' extensive training. They are so amazing

Edited April 25, 2014 by 4cats4me

[gdpups]

They truly are amazing and it's amazing the different services these dogs do for us!

 

I just wanted to add that some state laws do grant access rights to pups in training, although my state does not so we are greatly affected by unruly pet "service" dogs. I have been asked many times by people where they can purchase a vest so they can take their pets everywhere with them. They can now be purchased online by anyone, so this has become a huge problem.

 

There can be huge fines for refusing to allow access to someone with a service dog, but as the poster said they are required to be well behaved. One of the employees of our school said there is talk of service dog testing, so maybe someday this problem will be resolved.

[3dog]

I disagree that it is more difficult to legislate the difference. A simple law stating that if the dog is not obtained from an authorized business that is recognized by the state and ADA as training and providing service animals then it is NOT a service animal but a companion or comfort animal A.K.A. A PET.

 

Though I mostly agree about SA's vs. CA's, keep in mind, I said "more difficult", not impossible. It is not sufficient to state an animal comes from an authorized business, as now the law has to define what constitutes an "authorized" business as well as the methods needed to become "authorized" (hey, we know that Dr's will write a note, why wouldn't they also become a "business" to recognize a dog for an extra fee - note, that the ADA is a law not an agency that can license a dog or organization).

 

Further, the current ADA states that proof of a service animal may not be requested, so certainly this would also need to be updated otherwise, people could just lie (more that would need to be done for this "simple law"). And as we cannot ask the disability, it becomes hard to identify if the animal is truly trained to the task at hand.

 

Much easier to describe proper behavior (defecating outside of the specified locations, excessive barking, etc.). Note, that this also would cover those certified service animals that might also be misbehaving or otherwise disruptive (which is allowed by the ADA as it is currently defined).

[Pilot70D]

Btw, some don't realize that there are trained service monkeys as well as dogs. While I have the same admiration of those animals, celebrity only allows service dogs. Not complaining..just clarifying celebrity policy as I understand it.

 

I think they are often referred to as husbands!!!!

:D:D:D

Sorry, the devil made me say that!!!

:)

[TeaBag]

Ican't believe this thread and I feel so sorry for the people who really do need true service animals.

 

Isn't every dog or cat a "comfort" animal? I know ours is. She's a real stress buster.

 

Where we live, there is a by-law that you have to pick up after your animal and that is on the street!!! The disdain these scammers have for their fellow passengers is unbelievable. Like others, I would scream at them if I saw the animal pooping in the hallway/deck etc. I might even pick it up myself after I had photographed the evidence.

 

As for the barking, I would make Celebrity assign me to another cabin and if they didn't/couldn't, I would be asking for a full refund and passage home.

 

I can't believe they can do nothing. If they are going to ignore these issues for fear of litigation, then they need to get some backbone and put a policy in place immediately. It is just not acceptable and it is going to impact the people who genuinely need a service dog.

 

PS. Our dog is trained not to come anywhere near our table when we are eating.

[dgparent]

My cat wakes me up every day at 6 AM, is that considered a service cat ? After all I do not need a alarm clock.

[DirtyDawg]

I can't believe they can do nothing. If they are going to ignore these issues for fear of litigation, then they need to get some backbone and put a policy in place immediately. It is just not acceptable and it is going to impact the people who genuinely need a service dog.

 

Welcome to the world of accommodations! Companies and other institutions can't grow a backbone on this issue because legislation and legal precedence are against them. So if you ticked that some people bring their comfort dogs or cats with them on cruises just wait 'till the comfort iguanas start showing up.

 

If you think I'm joking just go ask the California Bar examiners about that one.:eek: Yes a student got to bring her service animal - an iguana with her to the Bar exam center because it relieved her stress.

Edited April 26, 2014 by DirtyDawg

[BOB AND PINKIE]

Not to make light of those who truly require service animals, but I find

that my pet bird has a calming influence on me.

It is a Gray Goose and is always available at the Martini Bar.

Well trained and never leaves a mess around the ship.

The only thing that it eats up is my on board credit.

[Bailey & Sophie]

Do passengers have to pay for their service or "comfort" dogs or do they travel free?

[rubydoobydoo]

I am sorry but anyone who feels they can't leave their 'comfort' dog to take a holiday should be choosing another type of holiday not a cruise, I am shocked to know this even allowed

 

I have great respect for true service dogs and their owners needs but I am amazed that even they are allowed on a cruise, I have no problem with that by the way, just shocked that any animal is allowed on board, let alone in the dining rooms

 

Being a dog lover and having my own dogs who we love to take on holidays with us I think it is great that some lines allow true service dogs, but comfort dogs no, sorry that is a step too far in my opinion, if they are not trained as a service dog and the owners can not make sure they don't affect anyone else's holidays they should not be allowed

[happy 2 b cruising]

I am sorry but anyone who feels they can't leave their 'comfort' dog to take a holiday should be choosing another type of holiday not a cruise, I am shocked to know this even allowed

 

I have great respect for true service dogs and their owners needs but I am amazed that even they are allowed on a cruise, I have no problem with that by the way, just shocked that any animal is allowed on board, let alone in the dining rooms

 

Being a dog lover and having my own dogs who we love to take on holidays with us I think it is great that some lines allow true service dogs, but comfort dogs no, sorry that is a step too far in my opinion, if they are not trained as a service dog and the owners can not make sure they don't affect anyone else's holidays they should not be allowed

 

Celebrity, we all know you monitor these threads. There is a "Code Of Conduct" for passengers and they can be escorted off the ship if they don't adhere to the rules. Looks like you need to add a new paragraph regarding comfort/emotional dogs. No dog or their owners should be allowed to stay onboard if dog was not trained to use doggie boxes provided by cruise ship. Peeing and pooping wherever the dog feels like is a health hazard. Barking and disturbing other people in their cabins should also be a cause for removal. Situation is getting out of hand and will hit Celebrity's pocketbook if not addressed, people will not cruise with you if you don't stop this behavior from these kind of people and their untrained dogs. I love my dog but would not want to ruin someone's cruise if she barked, pooped and urinated wherever and whenever she felt like. Would really like to see a response from Celebrity, thank - you.

[Caribbean Chris]

First, many thanks to all the genuinely supportive comments about legitimate service dogs.

 

I was dismayed, disheartened and almost sick at my stomach to read about the appalling behavior these people displayed. Permitting any dog to bark and relieve itself in public spaces is inconceivable.

 

Celebrity does have a document service dog handlers must sign and bring to the pier, acknowledging understanding of the professional behavior required. (It is up to the handler to secure permits to go ashore.) I only wish they had enforced it onboard and put the people off at the first port, for the sake of those of us who will follow them with a legitimate service dog.

 

My dog came to me for from the wonderful Dogs for the Deaf nonprofit in Oregon after more than two years of socialization, puppy raising and training. She was then tested and Certified for Public Access by Dogs for the Deaf according to Assistance Dogs International's standards.

 

Applicants must provide two medical references showing need, reference letters by non-relatives, detailed questionnaires, etc. Then there is a home inspection. If approved, you go on a waiting list. Once trainers assess a dog as a good match, the dog arrives for a week of intense training in your home with its Oregon trainer. You sign a multipage contract that you will care for the animal properly and maintain its training and behavior in public correctly.

 

That is just the start of becoming a service dog team. You must work with a local trainer in your home town for weeks or months at your own expense to be sure YOU are competent as a training partner. There are 15 written reports due the first year, with lots of communication with the trainer, followed by another in-person visit. You are required to continue reporting annually for the life of the dog.

 

The handler partner must also train the dog daily to keep up its ability to do the work, in my case, alerting me 24 hours a day - to sounds in my environment such as a truck backing toward me, smoke or fire detectors, oven timers, the microwave, my name being called, door bell, etc etc. We practice both obedience and sounds together throughout the day. I am the only person to feed the dog and take her out for relief, and only I respond to her alerts, even if my husband is sitting closer to the door.

 

My husband has heard our dog bark only once or twice ever, just a single bark when she saw a snarling animal on TV. She's never relieved herself anywhere except where I directed her to do so. She has been to numerous restaurants where she quietly slept at my feet. She is never given food - not even training treats - inside a restaurant. She does not jump on furniture unless invited.

 

I am concerned about our presenting a professional appearance when we take our first cruise as a team, primarily in order to honor Dogs for the Deaf's reputation and standards, but also to maintain my own dignity as a person with an invisible disability.

 

We are even spending the money for a Sky suite for the first time after decades of cruising as a couple, because when we go on the Constellation in December, I want a quiet place to eat and enjoy a balcony as needed rather than always be taking the dog to public spaces where she attracts attention and in effect is on display.

 

Receiving such a magnificent, intelligent dog was a great gift, and I am truly thankful to the people from Dogs for the Deaf and similar nonprofits - the staff, donors and volunteers - that help those of us with disabilities so we can just try to live like everyone else.

 

So when I read about fake service dogs on board, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Illinisue]

Thanks Chris! Your experience matches many of my friends and it's no small feat to obtain a service dog and takes lots of work to continuously train. Bravo to you.

 

Thanks for all of the intelligent posts. As the OP, I've learned so much about traveling on a cruise ship with a service animal.

[Clydesmom7865]

So when I read about fake service dogs on board, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

I feel the same way. My experience is with the dogs trained to assist people with Epilepsy. The dog is trained to alert someone if the person has a seizure, sit by their side until help arrives, push a button on a special phone to call 911, and open a door to let rescue personnel in. Some become so in tune with their partner that they alert when a seizure is coming before it ever happens so the person can make themselves safe.

 

Like your situation there is a long waiting list and they must be matched to the right dog. There is great expense to get one and the requirements are very rigid. Far beyond getting a doctor to simply scrawl a note on a prescription blank and ordering a vest from the internet. The training time is also at least a month on site then followed up at home.

 

Please do not isolate yourself on the cruise simply because you have a service animal. Do not let the few abusers of the service animal privilege keep you from your freedom to enjoy the cruise like everyone else.

[Caribbean Chris]

Two great things about Dogs for the Deaf:

 

One, the recipients do not pay for the dogs (other than a $50 application fee and a $500 good faith payment that is refunded after the team's first year.) The recipients do not have to raise money or pay personally for the dog. The cost of training the dog is roughly $25,000, though that's hard to generalize.

 

Two, most of the dogs are unwanted and found by the trainers in shelters on the West Coast. Some, like my Raylene, are Labs that did not work out as Guide Dogs for the Blind for various reasons but make good Hearing Dogs.

 

There are other magnificent nonprofits like Canine Companions for Independence that provide free dogs. There's a whole long thread on this forum started by Roz, who cruises often with her CCI dog and provides a wealth of information on the subject.

[Caribbean Chris]

Thanks Chris! Your experience matches many of my friends and it's no small feat to obtain a service dog and takes lots of work to continuously train. Bravo to you.

 

Thanks for all of the intelligent posts. As the OP, I've learned so much about traveling on a cruise ship with a service animal.

 

It's been very interesting to read. I'm so glad you posted this thread - thanks!

 

I also want to thank those of you who are puppy raisers and otherwise involved with service dogs. You are really doing the work of the angels.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Caribbean Chris