Please save the Prinsendam

[gymswim]

The Prinsendam is showing serious signs of neglect and old age. We think it's time Holland America step up and invest in a major refit. We know there are many other Mariner members who prefer this ship over the mega liners. The Prinsendam has mold which presents a serious health and safety issue as well as plumbing leaks, water leaks, exterior glass which needs replacement, central elevator problems and other issues common with older ships. If you share our concern, please add your comments here. We love and appreciate this small ship and want to continue to sail on her.

 

 

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[Kamloops50]

Most of the R class ships that where built have similar problems .

These issues seem to design flaws not maintenance issues.

This class was built for defunct cruise line . Princess has two of these as well.

I think Regent and Paul Gaugin have a couple as well. There was a total of six or seven ships built in this class.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Just curious -- where do you think HAL is getting the money from to fix her?

And how long would she be out of service to get all the maintenance issues done?

[sail7seas]

Most of the R class ships that where built have similar problems .

These issues seem to design flaws not maintenance issues.

This class was built for defunct cruise line . Princess has two of these as well.

I think Regent and Paul Gaugin have a couple as well. There was a total of six or seven ships built in this class.

 

 

Prinsendam was built as Royal Viking Sun. Royal Viking was a luxury cruise, which as you say, is now defunct. HAL did a major remodel when she joined the fleet and dry docks since. More cabins were added not that long ago and Canaletto was added. She has had major work done to her but perhaps time for more?

 

 

[Kamloops50]

Just curious -- where do you think HAL is getting the money from to fix her?

 

And how long would she be out of service to get all the maintenance issues done?

 

A ship in dry dock doesn't make money. The crew is still paid (unless gone home) .

[Krazy Kruizers]

Very true -- but to address the issues of the Prinsendam and a few other HAL ships, a dry dock of 2 or 3 weeks is not long enough.

When the Navy has problems and needs to be overhauled, their boats are out of commission for months. For a cruise ship, that is a lot of lost revenue.

[iancal]

I think HAL has a number of ships that are in dire need of an overall. Not necessarily to soft goods but to the engineering systems-HVAC, plumbing, etc.

 

These are very costly items to upgrade and they take considerable dry dock time. I suspect that HAL will continue to apply band aids and patches in an effort to maximize revenue until such time as these ships are sold or replaced with larger, more profitable new builds.

 

This may make good business sense but it is not so great for the luckless cruiser who gets stuck in a defective cabin with significant issues.

[CRUZBUDS]

Most of the R class ships that where built have similar problems .

These issues seem to design flaws not maintenance issues.

This class was built for defunct cruise line . Princess has two of these as well.

I think Regent and Paul Gaugin have a couple as well. There was a total of six or seven ships built in this class.

 

Are you confusing the Prinsendam with the R class fleet from the defunct Renaissance Cruises?

 

There were 8 R class ships... R1, R2 - and so on

 

Princess has two, so does Azamara and Oceania -- I think one wound up with P&O. I don't think HAL has any.

Edited May 10, 2014 by CRUZBUDS

[USN59-79]

We took two 4-week cruises on the Prinsendam last year. The first one we had zero issues in our cabin. The second, we had two minor issues and they were fixed very quickly. The ship did spend a week in a shipyard in Malta just before our second cruise to repair a stabilizer issue and to receive new tenders. While I don't know the condition of her major systems, I thought she seemed to be in great condition and would love to cruise on her again.

[GlennG]

I can appreciate the comments and sentiments expressed by the OP. His observations could likely apply to the Maasdam as well. Having sailed on the Maasdam in January, I can attest to the continuing maintenance and up-grading issues. In short, all of the smaller ships, in the Holland America fleet, are showing signs of their age. It goes without saying, but it will take millions of dollars to bring these older ships up to the standards of today's discerning traveler. Unfortunately, I see the way of the future, as a continuation of investment in Mega Ships. It's more cost effective to build a 4000 passenger ship than two ships with a 2000 passenger capacity. It's a sad situation, but time marches on. The alternative is to spend our vacation dollars on the luxury brands. For me, personally, I will not be able to afford to cruise on the smaller and more intimate ships. I can only afford "main line" cruising.

[sail7seas]

Are you confusing the Prinsendam with the R class fleet from the defunct Renaissance Cruises?

 

There were 8 R class ships... R1, R2 - and so on

 

Princess has two, so does Azamara and Oceania -- I think one wound up with P&O. I don't think HAL has any.

 

 

You are correct that Princess took some of the old Renaissance ships but HAL took none.

 

[0bnxshs]

You are correct that Princess took some of the old Renaissance ships but HAL took none.

 

 

Quite right, the Italian built HAL R class ships are not related to the French built Renaissance (R class) ships. We've been on the Ocean (nee Tahitian) Princess, one of the former Renaissance ships and found her to be in wonderful condition. She ranks as one of our favorite ships.

 

OP, sorry to go off topic. During our Prinsendam cruise of May and June 2013 we had no issues like you report.

Edited May 10, 2014 by 0bnxshs

[catl331]

People are demanding verandas and suites. Not many want ocean view. You don't have big paying customers on the small ships. They need to sail full. It is right to think they don't want to take the ships out of service for prettying up. So they wait until something major needs to be done.

 

Here, in Pt Canaveral, they do well with the older ships and the two or three days cruises to the Bahamas. Many just try them out to see if they like cruising or only can take short Jaunts in their schedules. Also those who can't afford a week on the sea like these older ships and the short cruises.

[kazu]

Quite right, the Italian built HAL R class ships are not related to the French built Renaissance (R class) ships. We've been on the Ocean (nee Tahitian) Princess, one of the former Renaissance ships and found her to be in wonderful condition. She ranks as one of our favorite ships.

 

OP, sorry to go off topic. During our Prinsendam cruise of May and June 2013 we had no issues like you report.

 

same thing here - we heard no complaints and enjoyed our cruise on her immensely. (and we had a HUGE roll call and met at the end so if there were such complaints I am sure we would have heard).

[rafinmd]

I hope I don't get too complicated here. I've been on 4 ships in the last 6 months. Most of you know I prefer another cruise line and I've been on both of their ships as well as the Amsterdam and Prinsendam. I got off the Prinsendam just before Christmas just before Christmas and the Amsterdam less than 2 weeks ago and was on the other 2 ships in between.

 

I saw some signs of aging on both the Prinsendam and the Amsterdam but nothing that would prevent me from booking either in the future. Things like a ceiling leak in a Prinsendam corridor that emptied into a bucket and took about 2 weeks to fix and a similar situation at the deck 5 port entrance to the theater. I rarely encounter such things with the other company's ships and when they happen they get fixed very quickly. I'm sure they also put a lot more into preventative maintenance.

 

The other 2 ships are just a few years younger and older than the Amsterdam and are in pristine condition. It is possible, but it is also expensive. If HAL could increase prices perhaps 25-50% it could do the same but I don't think that's likely. Until then the Prinsendam remains my favorite non-Crystal ship, hands down.

 

Roy

[gymswim]

Thanks, Roy. I hope the comments and concerns written here and in the post cruise comment forms as well as made to the Hotel Manager during the cruise may bring some action being taken by HAL on the Prinsendam. I agree with your comments. We sailed on her for a month and she really deserves to have some major work done to remedy some of the big problems, particularly the mold,plumbing and elevators. We like to do long cruises too, and HAL should take note. Just because the Prinsendam sells well, doesn't justify neglecting her.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

The Prinsendam is showing serious signs of neglect and old age. We think it's time Holland America step up and invest in a major refit. We know there are many other Mariner members who prefer this ship over the mega liners. The Prinsendam has mold which presents a serious health and safety issue as well as plumbing leaks, water leaks, exterior glass which needs replacement, central elevator problems and other issues common with older ships. If you share our concern, please add your comments here. We love and appreciate this small ship and want to continue to sail on her.

 

 

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I've never sailed the Prinsendam, but I can feel your pain and attachment to the smaller, more intimate ships. But, hopefully without being seen as a "Debbie downer", I'd like to make some observations from a marine engineering standpoint as to why HAL probably won't continue to use the Prinsendam after another couple of years.

 

Hull age: At 26, she is into her 6th "Special Survey" interval with the class society, and the inspection requirements for these surveys becomes quite a financial burden during drydocks, and tend to result in some major steel renewals to hull and internal structure, at significant cost. Return on investment drives many lines to move/sell these older ships to "fringe" market lines with tighter profit margins, less stringent class societies and flag states, and more affordable insurance clubs.

 

Propulsion: The old Sulzer engines will struggle to meet the newer, upcoming emissions requirements, even doing grand or world itineraries. In 2020, the IMO is requesting a world-wide emissions limit for bunker fuel of 1%. US (out to 200 miles) and most EU ports (in port) require the use of marine gas oil to reduce the sulfur content and emissions, and the engines themselves will require considerable revision and maintenance to operate long term on MGO. Scrubbers would be another option, at $1.5 million for each engine.

 

Piping: I was on the NCL Pride of Aloha (Norwegian Sky) when we ended up renewing the estimated 18 kilometers of fresh water piping due to constant piping breaks and leaks. We would take an entire deck out of inventory for 1-2 weeks and used 15-20 contractors to do the work. It took several months, and still needed to address areas like the galleys that could not be taken out of service while still sailing, and cost over $12 million. And that did not even consider the drain piping for black/gray water, which was also in extremely poor condition, and required breaking down cabin bulkheads to get access.

 

HVAC: at 26 years, the HVAC plant, even a well maintained one is going to be on its last legs. The ductwork will need to be scoped completely, and large renewals would require deconstruction of major public areas.

 

Cabins: If mold is a serious problem, then they would need to remove all built in furniture and renew it. On a ship which has had serious plumbing leaks, the steel cabin bulkheads will have started to rust out.

 

To bring a ship like the Prinsendam up to modern standards (and I don't mean bells and whistle attractions, or more dining venues, or balconies, just fixing what is there) would require most likely a 2-3 month shipyard period at a cost of $60-80 million, plus loss of revenue while out of service. Does HAL see a return on this investment?

 

Again, I feel for you, but just from a quick review of the age of the ship and the complaints I've seen about her, these are my observations. Good luck.

[0bnxshs]

Wow, very interesting post, chengkp75. Thanks for the insight. :)

[iancal]

Thanks, very interesting.

 

 

It mirrors what I heard from someone with a similar background about the condition of plumbing and HVAC systems on Veendam.

Edited May 14, 2014 by iancal

[LindaM]

I am not going to argue with ChengKP because those issues sound valid. However, according to Captain Tim Roberts, HAL intends to keep Prinsendam going longer than a couple of years.

 

What is the age of the ships from the Rennaisance fleet? Would they not have the same issues, yet Princess still has 2 going to exotic locations, and Oceania has 3. Azamara has 3.

 

Viking is building small ships as there is a market for them. I would think HAL would want to have at least one small ship. They would lose that lucrative market to other lines. My opinion is that they will quit using her for the long voyages. I'm sure it's a dilemna for them as she has such a loyal following and is able to get into ports that other ships can't. I believe that HAL would take her out for 3 months to refurbish her, to compete with the luxury lite lines. If you have never sailed Prinsendam or a luxury line, you don't have the same mindset of those who do. Of course you would think HAL would just dump her. There are so many of us that HAL would lose in that small ship/luxury category. She may need her inner workings redone, but her public areas are quality. They don't build ships like her anymore---and they can't afford to. I have sailed on a former Rennaisance ship on Princess and it was a dump in comparison. No quality at all.

 

We are going on her in July, for our 4th trip. IMHO, people here are overreacting and dramatizing the situation. If she has mold, then every other HAL ship has it somewhere as well. What other HAL ship hasn't had plumbing issues as well???

 

I should be invited to a Captain's function, if I haven't been banned for being vocal about the wine issue. I will pick the brain of the Captain and Hotel Manager....if he is as forthcoming as Captain Tim. I don't know who our Captain will be.

Edited May 14, 2014 by LindaM
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[chengkp75]

I am not going to argue with ChengKP because those issues sound valid. However, according to Captain Tim Roberts, HAL intends to keep Prinsendam going longer than a couple of years.

 

What is the age of the ships from the Rennaisance fleet? Would they not have the same issues, yet Princess still has 2 going to exotic locations, and Oceania has 3. Azamara has 3.

 

Viking is building small ships as there is a market for them. I would think HAL would want to have at least one small ship. They would lose that lucrative market to other lines. My opinion is that they will quit using her for the long voyages. I'm sure it's a dilemna for them as she has such a loyal following and is able to get into ports that other ships can't. I believe that HAL would take her out for 3 months to refurbish her, to compete with the luxury lite lines. If you have never sailed Prinsendam or a luxury line, you don't have the same mindset of those who do. Of course you would think HAL would just dump her. There are so many of us that HAL would lose in that small ship/luxury category. She may need her inner workings redone, but her public areas are quality. They don't build ships like her anymore---and they can't afford to. I have sailed on a former Rennaisance ship on Princess and it was a dump in comparison. No quality at all. I'm not saying that there is no market for smaller ships, nor that HAL doesn't want to continue in the small ship market. However, it is a question of whether or not they can invest $60-100 million into Prinsendam and continue to make money on her for maybe 5 years, or whether it makes more sense to build a new, small ship for $300-400 million that can generate revenue for another 20 years.

 

We are going on her in July, for our 4th trip. IMHO, people here are overreacting and dramatizing the situation. If she has mold, then every other HAL ship has it somewhere as well. What other HAL ship hasn't had plumbing issues as well??? While plenty of cruise ships continue working after 25 years, most are in the Pullmantur types of fleets, not main stream or high end, and I expect to see, given the upcoming regulations by 2020 at the latest, that all of these ships will be gone from both main stream and high end fleets.

 

I should be invited to a Captain's function, if I haven't been banned for being vocal about the wine issue. I will pick the brain of the Captain and Hotel Manager....if he is as forthcoming as Captain Tim. I don't know who our Captain will be.

 

I would be interested as well. While the Captain is like the CEO of the ship, you may want to ask the Chief as well, if you have the opportunity (I know that Chief Engineers tend to stay away from meet and greet opportunities, and don't like to talk about problems on their ships).

[iancal]

I doubt very much if the Captain will give you a straight answer.

 

It would hardly be in HAL's best interests to come out and say that the ship will be sold retired/sold in 2 years because it would cost so much to overhaul it. He would most likely smile, say that it is a wonderful ship, and that he hopes to sail on it for some time.

[LindaM]

I doubt very much if the Captain will give you a straight answer.

 

It would hardly be in HAL's best interests to come out and say that the ship will be sold retired/sold in 2 years because it would cost so much to overhaul it. He would most likely smile, say that it is a wonderful ship, and that he hopes to sail on it for some time.

 

If memory serves me (and Kazu could help), I think he said HAL was committed to her for 5 more years. That was in September.

 

I don't see why he wouldn't be honest if he knew something. If you ever met this Captain, he is unlike any other. People know certain HAL ships are for sale, and they still sail them. I don't understand your logic.

[CoronaCRZR]

Age of the fleet is becoming a problem for HAL.

The average useful lifespan of cruise ships is approx. 25 years.

With Prinsendam at 26, and a number of other HAL ships approaching that age, I feel HAL will need to do something.

 

Better maintenance will be needed to keep the ships in top form. Unfortunately HAL may need to increase pricing in order to do this...

[iancal]

The Captain may say five years but is it really his/her decision?

 

If someone comes along and offers HAL a good price for a 26 year old ship, at the end of it's life and in need of a costly, complete overhaul it won't be the Captain who makes the decision to unload the asset.

 

It will be the Executive office backed up by the accountants. And it won't matter if they have to cancel reservations past eight or twelve months out if the price and timing is right for Corporate. And I suspect this is true for all mass market cruise line ships that are 20 years or older.

 

So, if I had a decision to make about booking a cruise eighteen months out on two ships, and one of those ships was up for sale, I would select the one that was not. Not to say it could not be sold or chartered, just that the chances would be less. When people hear, and most have no idea, that a ship is up for sale, it would be a logical conclusion to me that the cruise line is going to spend a little as possible on maintenance until such time as the vessel is sold.

Edited May 14, 2014 by iancal