One-sided changes in last 3 months...

[cle-guy]

All this reference to a legal contract are irrelevant. The contract wasn't arrived at by my lawyers sitting across the table from Celebrity's lawyers to negotiate fair terms to a cruise. The contract has no real bearing - consumer protection laws exist precisely because of "contracts" written up like these.

 

What I am talking about here is fairness in operations. When I can no longer change my decision without consequence, but the cruise line decides to change the product that they have sold to me before it is delivered, that is simply not part of the "game".

 

Quite likely, Finance has told somebody that they need to improve the bottom line this quarter (not next quarter), so the operations guys react by making little changes to slightly increase revenue and decrease costs immediately. Thing is...there should be a guideline to this, they should not be allowed to decrease the value of my purchase between the time I buy it and the time I use it. If somebody told them that the changes can only be made and publicized 75 days out, then they would have to just have a bit more foresight and plan ahead. That is a VERY reasonable request to make of them.

 

Really, I ask those who seem to think I am making unreasonable complaints here: what is unreasonable about holding Celebrity to the same 75 day standard that we're held to?

 

I may well have made the same choice to book this cruise, but maybe not. I wouldn't advise anybody to avoid booking with Celebrity as a result of these cuts - in fact, I may be in line for my best vacation ever that will make me a long-time Celebrity customer. I'd like to keep this discussion to its main point.

 

There were some other changes made to increase pricing, such as the change in the spa stuff, but that had been publicized before final payment so I had a fair chance to consider that change and whether it was likely to impact on my vacation. That's fair game. The list of items that I posted that got cut between final payment and my cruise...that's just not fair.

I

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

I just posted a through analysis of what the cruise booking conditions entail.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=42739055&postcount=102

 

Certainly Consumer laws will apply, but their enforcement would look to the agreement (aka CONTRACT) made, which is that Celebrity agrees to provide - and I am quoting here - "ocean transportation, cabin, most meals and some beverages". It does not agree to provide any further amenities. It also allows for them to add a surcharge at their discretion even after booking and final payment....not just a fuel supplement, any surcharge, at their discretion....

 

If there were any teeth in the consumer laws relative to cruising, we'd ALL (myself included) be going after X for all the changes...then they would just simply take all the amenities away, then the cruise lines would fail to exist anymore. It's a balancing act.

 

I suspect where consumer laws DO have teeth are incidences where a formal written contract or agreement were never really in place, like consumer pricing in grocery stores and similar situations. I'm admittedly unclear as to how the Consumer protections laws would be enforced given the agreement to binding arbitration within the cruise documents. I suspect you'd have to argue those protections to the arbiter and let the arbiter determine of those have more weight or your more recent written agreement to the terms of the booking would apply. I suspect the more recent and written agreement would hold greater weight in that situation. I think the consumer laws provide protections to ensure goods and services are delivered to MATERIALLY match the offering, not METICULOUSLY match the offering.

[parallax]

I sometimes wonder if we over plan our cruise vacation and then get in a lather when changes occur because we are dealing with the abstract. We review the reviews, check out the websites and boards and then construct a detailed itinerary (go to Bistro on 5, get craft beers, determine what speciality restaurants, etc.) However, at least for us, when we get on board the ship, we forget about the itinerary or plan of activities. For example, on the last cruise, we originally planned to go to Michael's Club. By the time we got on board, we were distracted by other shiny things so we didn't give Michael's Club a second thought.

[JLSPOOL]

Isn't there some law about truth in advertising.

Actually providing what you advertise in print?

 

jls

[jomf]

Isn't there some law about truth in advertising.

Actually providing what you advertise in print?

 

jls

 

Not for Celebrity there isn't !!!

[NLH Arizona]

Not for Celebrity there isn't !!!

If you think they have done something wrong, then stand up and file a lawsuit against them.

[countingbackwards]

If you think they have done something wrong, then stand up and file a lawsuit against them.

 

 

 

I guess that what people say about the US being a very litigious place is true then?

 

The law has nothing to do with this...being that Celebrity markets to hundreds of jurisdictions with different laws, anybody's presumptions of what they legally can or cannot do are probably both right and wrong. So how about we stop talking about lawsuits, and start talking about standards?

 

Celebrity should be held to a very basic standard of delivering on what they advertise from final payment onwards. They need this to be their own corporate standard in order to avoid these discussions. Where their corporate standard is below this very basic level, I would presume they will anger customers and perhaps some consumer protection boards. But there's no need for that - all they need to do is lock in their offering from final payment onwards. Not very hard to do I wouldn't think.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[DavidYYC]

I think you are over-thinking the whole deal.

 

I enjoy the Celebrity product, without being a slavishly devoted, life-long fan.

 

My advice to you is to go and have a great time. Stop reading the negativity here on CC, stop thinking about cutbacks, stop brooding on how you have been screwed over. Tell your wife to go to the gym instead of Zumba, get craft beers on shore (or at home) go to Bistro on 5 (and yes its named for the deck, not the price) or don't go - but don't let $10 ruin your much desired vacation.

 

I'm so contrary about this - that when I read these type of posts, i WANT to go and book more cruises on Celebrity, just to show that some people are still happy with the overall experience and are not going to lose sleep over these little things.

 

Our recent TA cost what? $200 a night. Fantastic value when you consider we had wonderful accommodation, great food, transport, spectacular views and ports, entertainment etc etc. I paid $300/night for a very MEH hotel in FLL before we sailed which had nothing except mediocre accommodation.

 

I just don't get it. Sorry.

[NLH Arizona]

I guess that what people say about the US being a very litigious place is true then?

 

The law has nothing to do with this...being that Celebrity markets to hundreds of jurisdictions with different laws, anybody's presumptions of what they legally can or cannot do are probably both right and wrong. So how about we stop talking about lawsuits, and start talking about standards?

 

Celebrity should be held to a very basic standard of delivering on what they advertise from final payment onwards. They need this to be their own corporate standard in order to avoid these discussions. Where their corporate standard is below this very basic level, I would presume they will anger customers and perhaps some consumer protection boards. But there's no need for that - all they need to do is lock in their offering from final payment onwards. Not very hard to do I wouldn't think.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

My point is that if someone really thinks that Celebrity has done something legally wrong, don't come on here making disparaging remarks, stand up and do something. Posters have been throwing around bait and switch and other legal statutes and if they really think that what they are writing is true, then stand up and do something about it. Otherwise keep the legal system out of the mix.

 

FWIW, no we are not all sue happy here in the US.

Edited May 12, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[NLH Arizona]

I think you are over-thinking the whole deal.

 

I enjoy the Celebrity product, without being a slavishly devoted, life-long fan.

 

My advice to you is to go and have a great time. Stop reading the negativity here on CC, stop thinking about cutbacks, stop brooding on how you have been screwed over. Tell your wife to go to the gym instead of Zumba, get craft beers on shore (or at home) go to Bistro on 5 (and yes its named for the deck, not the price) or don't go - but don't let $10 ruin your much desired vacation.

 

I'm so contrary about this - that when I read these type of posts, i WANT to go and book more cruises on Celebrity, just to show that some people are still happy with the overall experience and are not going to lose sleep over these little things.

 

Our recent TA cost what? $200 a night. Fantastic value when you consider we had wonderful accommodation, great food, transport, spectacular views and ports, entertainment etc etc. I paid $300/night for a very MEH hotel in FLL before we sailed which had nothing except mediocre accommodation.

 

I just don't get it. Sorry.

David, I totally agree with you. I cruise because I enjoy cruising. I love the idea of being at sea, not having to pack and unpack, having great food that someone is serving to me, having someone else make my bed and to see some unbelievable places. I never knew that folks only cruised just because they wanted to do trivia or Zumba or because they had to have a certain brand of liquor, so I've really learned a lot in these last few days. I guess I'm a throwback of yester years, because I just cruise because I love it and if they don't have my favorite wine or an entree that I like or an activity that I like, I'll just eat, drink or do something different while enjoying something I love to do - cruising.

Edited May 12, 2014 by NLH Arizona

[OuiOnboard]

After some time cruising around, we have come to the conclusion that often the best way to not be disappointed by some, is to not expect much of them.

In this instance, your standards and expectations are obviously somewhat higher than Celebrity's. Make choices in your own best interest, and if you are really hooked on this cruising thing as we are, then try very hard to savour the joys that come from your time spent at sea.

Edited May 12, 2014 by OuiOnboard

[hammo]

The Original Post is certainly correct and states the obvious in my opinion. For the average JoBlow there is less now . That is a fact. How some prefer to put whatever spin they chose on this is amusing - maybe a little sad. :rolleyes:

We will still look at cruising with Celebrity and have a fine time on our next one, but like several have mentioned, Michaels Club was available to us when we booked ( as were the other offerings ) and while this is a bonus for Suite passengers - it is less for us .

 

So many apologists for Celebrity here -- maybe some should preface their post with " I am a Celebrity Shareholder ".:p

[4774Papa]

The Original Post is certainly correct and states the obvious in my opinion. For the average JoBlow there is less now . That is a fact. How some prefer to put whatever spin they chose on this is amusing - maybe a little sad. :rolleyes:

We will still look at cruising with Celebrity and have a fine time on our next one, but like several have mentioned, Michaels Club was available to us when we booked ( as were the other offerings ) and while this is a bonus for Suite passengers - it is less for us .

 

So many apologists for Celebrity here -- maybe some should preface their post with " I am a Celebrity Shareholder ".:p

I am not a Celebrity Shareholder, but after seven X cruises, X is our favorite cruise line.

We have encountered a few negative issues on our cruises, but nothing dramatic so that it changed our positive view.

 

The most serious issue that we had was on our last cruise Around the Horn of South America. We had Europeans in the two cabins upwind from us, who continued to smoke on their balconies, even after we made several reports to the Officer head of room stewards. It seems that our eyewitness statements of seeing illegal smoking was not enough proof to punish the smokers. We still had a great cruise even though it was frustrating about the smoking.

[The_Big_M]

I guess that what people say about the US being a very litigious place is true then?

 

The law has nothing to do with this...being that Celebrity markets to hundreds of jurisdictions with different laws, anybody's presumptions of what they legally can or cannot do are probably both right and wrong. So how about we stop talking about lawsuits, and start talking about standards?

 

Celebrity should be held to a very basic standard of delivering on what they advertise from final payment onwards. They need this to be their own corporate standard in order to avoid these discussions. Where their corporate standard is below this very basic level, I would presume they will anger customers and perhaps some consumer protection boards. But there's no need for that - all they need to do is lock in their offering from final payment onwards. Not very hard to do I wouldn't think.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

The key issue is that there's an ever present tug of war between the bean counters and those that are there to deliver an experience.

 

At this point, the bean counters have been given more sway, so changes are being made at once to support that focus, rather than about delivering a better experience.

 

Some may be happy with a minimum - some may be happy taking a car ferry! - but it doesn't change the fact that the experience is being lowered, and in a sudden manner.

 

As always, people will probably get used to the loss of some minor things. Over time though, these have added up substantially and when people do a comparison of cost for what you get, it does change the equation for those.

[diligaf51]

So I reserved my first cruise on Celebrity less than 3 months ago, that we'll be taking in 2 weeks. Before I get to the crux of the issue here…my family is is very looking forward to this cruise and we're sure we'll have a good time.

 

We are, however, getting concerned at the one-sided nature of the "agreement" we had to cruise with Celebrity.

 

We do not take that many vacations - due to limited vacation time, kids' commitments to school and sports teams, etc. What we have taken to doing is a family vacation or a couples vacation, in alternating years. What this means is…1 vacation per year. Given our location and the logistics (and cost) of travelling with kids, it makes more sense to do less vacations and have them be memorable. We are quite looking forward to a great cruise in a corner FV cabin!

 

We have done a variety of vacations - Disney, land-based resort, other cruises, and more "roughing it" style vacations. Every one of those vacations, the conditions of sale DID NOT CHANGE from booking to cruising. Disney, for example, frequently changes dining rules etc. on their programs - but it's clear from day one what the rules are (i.e. - if you book in March for September, the rules that will be in place in September are clearly indicated upon booking if you are willing to ask the right questions).

 

With Celebrity, it seems that they collect the fare, but will then be able to do as they please as to the terms of what is on offer.

 

Based on the research I had done at the time of choosing my cruise, the following SIGNIFICANT changes have happened:

 

1) I was quite looking forward to the Michael's Club and it's collection of draft beers, as advertised on the website. But then, a press release went out, and Michael's Club's doors got shut, to be opened only for 10% of the people on the boat. Nobody at Celebrity has made it clear if/where the craft beer will be available.

 

2) My wife was looking forward to the Zumba lessons by the pool. Those have been cancelled.

 

3) The last sea-day brunch buffet that we had read about on the website got canned.

 

4) Pricing has been increased from $5 to $7 at Bistro on 5 (will they change its name now too??). This upsets me quite a bit - was looking forward to eating there as a family, but $7 is the tipping point where it makes no sense to bring the kids who might or might not like it - so we'll bring them to the buffet and let them go to the kids' club while we go to Bistro on 5…which removes a potential family activity from a ship that didn't have many of them to begin with. The other specialties on Summit might be increased too, but that doesn't bother me as much as I wasn't planning to bring the kids to QSine at $45 (or is it $50?) a pop anyways.

 

5) There are reports of decreased selection on the Classic beverage package.

 

6) NO NEW FEATURES are present to replace these items.

 

Now, I might have still chosen Celebrity regardless of these changes, I just find it abhorrent that within a 3-month span, so many cutbacks in service can occur without warning. If you make a deal to buy a car, and when you go to pick it up they've decided to drop 3 features, well then you will have the option to either back out of the purchase or get a discount. If Celebrity can't operate in this manner, fine, but where are the upgrades to compensate for the obviously lower value level that I'm getting for the dollar amount already paid? Is this industry so unregulated that a company can collect your fare, and then deliver whatever they want?

 

Frankly, my choices were Celebrity Summit vs. Norwegian Breakaway on this cruise. I haven't read of any cutbacks on Norwegian. What this tells me is that going forward, I can't trust Celebrity to provide the product that they advertise, even compared to other cruise lines, let alone other vacation types.

 

Let's hope that the product delivered is of a high enough quality that it will be a ton of fun regardless of the clear drop in value that I will be receiving for my dollar from what the 'deal' was when I paid. Unfortunately, this is feeling like a bit of a swindle at the moment.

 

If you are going to compare Norwegian with Celebrity, there is no comparison regardless of how much Celebrity cuts back.

[DavidYYC]

I am absolutely 100% not a "Celebrity apologist"

 

I just could not care less about Zumba or Michaels club. Or anything else that the OP is annoyed about.

 

How is that difficult to understand?

[QE2_Fan]

2) My wife was looking forward to the Zumba lessons by the pool. Those have been cancelled.

 

3) The last sea-day brunch buffet that we had read about on the website got canned.

 

Hi, aside from some posts on CC, where have you seen or been advised of the above 2 points are no longer offered? I find it so hard to get factual information from Celebrity even WHEN the buffet is offered to find that now has been confirmed it is no longer going to be offered at all (and I assume it was on the 'last sea day') :D Same with the high tea - heard mixed reports that it is for Captains Club members only, others say you anyone can attend (at a fee) but there is no concise info on the topic that I can see on Celebrity's site. Confusing :confused::confused:

 

I have read on other threads here that Celebrity are trialling a new concept called 'GastroPub' in place of the current CellarMasters. It will initially be only on Equinox and if successful suspect it will be deployed fleet wide. It is to offer the boutique beers and finger food to match (at a surcharge). I think Celebrity even posted the proposed menu on here.

 

Sorry sounds like that is not going to be on offer in time for your cruise but sounds like the 'replacement' of what Michaels had become since originally being a cigar lounge (in the days when that was permitted!!) and then becoming an exclusive lounge for suite passengers.

 

Ships - their facilities and their on board offerings will continually evolve - sometimes we will like the changes sometimes we will not but thats whats makes us individual and is our choice if overall we decide to return or go elsewhere as a result!

[The_Big_M]

Hi, aside from some posts on CC, where have you seen or been advised of the above 2 points are no longer offered?

 

The most important thing is what is happening onboard, not what is officially released on the website.

In any case, Celebrity isn’t in the business of sharing bad news, so you won’t see official announcements of such things in most cases, as it’s never a good look for them.

So the reality is you go off reports of what’s actually happening.

As others have mentioned, Zumba is no longer freely offered. They do have a program that you can pay for. For better or worse, that also mean numbers are down a lot from when it was no extra charge.

Similarly, the brunch buffet in the MDR (which was the previous incarnation of the buffet) has now been canned entirely. Sail now, and it won’t be on.

[cle-guy]

As others have mentioned, Zumba is no longer freely offered. They do have a program that you can pay for. For better or worse, that also mean numbers are down a lot from when it was no extra charge.

Similarly, the brunch buffet in the MDR (which was the previous incarnation of the buffet) has now been canned entirely. Sail now, and it won’t be on.

 

On my TA on Eclipse, Zumba offered 2 free introductory classes and further class were for a fee. I was under the impression that it's now run by Canyon Ranch, the new SPA provider.

 

The sea day Brunch Buffett officially ended 1st week of march. They do do a dressed up version of the Ocean View cafe with fruit carvings ice sculptures and fancy displays a day or 2 now each cruise though.

[wallie5446]

OP, many things have changed since our 1st in 1987, and your 1st in 2003. If you decided to try NCL after your Summit sailing, please come back and let us know what you thought. NCL is one of the 7 lines we have sailed, and the other 6 would have to go out of business before we will try them again.

 

We always return from a sailing, look at each other and say, opps, we forgot to do this and try that. You booked a very good Ship.

 

EW

 

ps: read this review, her second Summit sailing this year!

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2037736

Edited May 13, 2014 by wallie5446

[SSFrance69]

Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure I read that the craft beers would be available in Cellar Masters.

 

I'm sure you'll enjoy the cruise.

[cle-guy]

My point is that if someone really thinks that Celebrity has done something legally wrong, don't come on here making disparaging remarks, stand up and do something. Posters have been throwing around bait and switch and other legal statutes and if they really think that what they are writing is true, then stand up and do something about it. Otherwise keep the legal system out of the mix.

 

FWIW, no we are not all sue happy here in the US.

 

Here's how to lodge complaints to authorities without filing lawsuits to look into the validity of claims such as false advertising and bait and switch:

 

In the USA:

http://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-complaint-ftc

 

The UK Consumer Affairs site only allows reporting for major things like Telecom, Airlines, etc. No vacations or cruises specifically. They do provide a link to a Consumer Affairs site that deals with misleading advertisements, which seems to be the nature of the complaints in these forums. Here is a link to the brochure they provide itemizing the process and how to lodger the complaint, including a phone number to call:

http://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/~/me...gle_Final.ashx

 

In Australia, I found this link to lodge a complain on-line in NSW (seems each territory has its own complaint process)

 

https://www.cas.fairtrading.nsw.gov....ntType=general

 

Someone, ANYONE who thinks their rights have been trampled, please file the complaint for the sake of us all. I await hearing the outcome of these complaints.

[uktog]

Here's how to lodge complaints to authorities without filing lawsuits to look into the validity of claims such as false advertising and bait and switch:

 

The UK Consumer Affairs site only allows reporting for major things like Telecom, Airlines, etc. No vacations or cruises specifically. They do provide a link to a Consumer Affairs site that deals with misleading advertisements, which seems to be the nature of the complaints in these forums. Here is a link to the brochure they provide itemizing the process and how to lodger the complaint, including a phone number to call:

http://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/~/me...gle_Final.ashx

 

Someone, ANYONE who thinks their rights have been trampled, please file the complaint for the sake of us all. I await hearing the outcome of these complaints.

 

Not quite - the ASA (link below your link was not working) covers all adverts it is the media through which the advert was offered that is the determining factor

http://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/What-we-cover.aspx and consumer affairs (Trading Standards) do cover holidays

Edited May 13, 2014 by uktog

[vulcan1971]

On my TA on Eclipse, Zumba offered 2 free introductory classes and further class were for a fee. I was under the impression that it's now run by Canyon Ranch, the new SPA provider.

 

The sea day Brunch Buffett officially ended 1st week of march. They do do a dressed up version of the Ocean View cafe with fruit carvings ice sculptures and fancy displays a day or 2 now each cruise though.

 

Great to have you back on-line again. Hope your cruise was enjoyable!

[JLSPOOL]

I think you are over-thinking the whole deal.

 

I enjoy the Celebrity product, without being a slavishly devoted, life-long fan.

 

My advice to you is to go and have a great time. Stop reading the negativity here on CC, stop thinking about cutbacks, stop brooding on how you have been screwed over. Tell your wife to go to the gym instead of Zumba, get craft beers on shore (or at home) go to Bistro on 5 (and yes its named for the deck, not the price) or don't go - but don't let $10 ruin your much desired vacation.

 

I'm so contrary about this - that when I read these type of posts, i WANT to go and book more cruises on Celebrity, just to show that some people are still happy with the overall experience and are not going to lose sleep over these little things.

 

Our recent TA cost what? $200 a night. Fantastic value when you consider we had wonderful accommodation, great food, transport, spectacular views and ports, entertainment etc etc. I paid $300/night for a very MEH hotel in FLL before we sailed which had nothing except mediocre accommodation.

 

I just don't get it. Sorry.

 

$200 a night, was that per person or total for the cabin. Did you get 123-go with tips, obc, and classic drink package on a Celebrity T-Atlantic.

Did your cruise include extras from your wallet.

Did you fly on a magic carpet at no cost.

 

If you paid 300 for a hotel room and got a room that wasn't acceptable, would you make an issue of it.

 

Knowing you paid your travel money for a product over-hyped and not fulfilled, will you go back to work rested from a "wonderful" vacation with "spectacular" views of the Atlantic crossing. Time spent with family is a sure thing, vacations need to suit the individuals.

 

jls

Edited May 13, 2014 by JLSPOOL

[cle-guy]

Not quite - the ASA (link below your link was not working) covers all adverts it is the media through which the advert was offered that is the determining factor

http://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/What-we-cover.aspx and consumer affairs (Trading Standards) do cover holidays

 

Appreciate the corrections, My reading to he Consumer affairs site related to holidays didn't have any mention of bait and switch or false advertising, only major things like cancellation, business out of business and that sort of thing. But it's quite possibly there is a method there as well.

 

In any case, Look forward to SOMEONE actually lodging a complaint AND returning with proof of result that X and RCI were fined or forced to honor the details.