Are these layover times in Europe too short?

[4774Papa]

We have flown in to Frankfurt from the US and had to change flights to a different terminal twice.

The first time, we had about 40 minutes since our flight was a little late arriving, and we made our flight to Kiev, The second time we had to change terminals for a SAS flight to Copenhagen with about 90 minutes and made it with plenty of time to spare.

[pseudoware]

I think what we'll do is fly non-stop LHR to MXP and take a 2 hour train ride to Venice. Coming back, non-stop VCE to LGW or something other than LHR.

 

Searching around, this is a much cheaper plan. Avoiding LHR on our return opens up many flights on budget airlines that don't use LHR. And we're flying direct both ways. The few non-stop LHR-VCE flights are ridiculously expensive.

 

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Edited February 26, 2015 by pseudoware

[greatam]

I think what we'll do is fly non-stop LHR to MXP and take a 2 hour train ride to Venice. Coming back, non-stop VCE to LGW or something other than LHR.

 

Searching around, this is a much cheaper plan. Avoiding LHR on our return opens up many flights on budget airlines that don't use LHR. And we're flying direct both ways. The few non-stop LHR-VCE flights are ridiculously expensive.

 

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PLEASE pay VERY close attention to all the add on fees on the budget airlines. If you have cruise luggage (one large checked and a carryon), you could find you are paying more on a budget airline than on a "regular" airline. In addition, a lot of the budget airlines charge for using your credit card, picking a seat, some even for carryons. A lot of them charge you to check in at the airport (someone said RyanAir was $100), so you are going to have to spend the money on the ship to check in. EasyJet has the most lenient rules but you still have to watch the fees and your luggage weight. Intra Europe, even on the "regular" airlines is NOT the 50 pounds as it is international.

 

One other thing-PAY ATTENTION to where the airport is. RyanAir is notorious for stating an airport is in Rome or some other large city and then you find out "Rome" is 60 miles from where you want to be and you now have to pay additional transportation costs plus schlep luggage.

 

No reason not to take a cheaper connecting flight. Just make sure you allow enough time for the connection. Doesn't sound like you are in a tremendous hurry going either direction.

 

Kind of like flying Spirit in the USA. Yes, you can get a ticket for $9.00. BUT by the time you add in all the fees that are charged and can only deal with them via email, you just should have flown someone else at the "normal" price. You probably paid just about the same price totally AND at least got some customer service via phone for free instead of HOPING someone answers your email.

 

Good luck!!!

Edited February 26, 2015 by greatam

[pseudoware]

PLEASE pay VERY close attention to all the add on fees on the budget airlines. If you have cruise luggage (one large checked and a carryon), you could find you are paying more on a budget airline than on a "regular" airline. In addition, a lot of the budget airlines charge for using your credit card, picking a seat, some even for carryons. A lot of them charge you to check in at the airport (someone said RyanAir was $100), so you are going to have to spend the money on the ship to check in. EasyJet has the most lenient rules but you still have to watch the fees and your luggage weight. Intra Europe, even on the "regular" airlines is NOT the 50 pounds as it is international.

 

One other thing-PAY ATTENTION to where the airport is. RyanAir is notorious for stating an airport is in Rome or some other large city and then you find out "Rome" is 60 miles from where you want to be and you now have to pay additional transportation costs plus schlep luggage.

 

No reason not to take a cheaper connecting flight. Just make sure you allow enough time for the connection. Doesn't sound like you are in a tremendous hurry going either direction.

 

Kind of like flying Spirit in the USA. Yes, you can get a ticket for $9.00. BUT by the time you add in all the fees that are charged and can only deal with them via email, you just should have flown someone else at the "normal" price. You probably paid just about the same price totally AND at least got some customer service via phone for free instead of HOPING someone answers your email.

 

Good luck!!!

 

Thanks for the info. I recently read an article by Rick Steves that discusses potential European budget airlines pitfalls.

 

Since we're landing @ LHR in the afternoon and planning to spend the night, we've decided to take the 40 minute bus ride to LGW and get a room nearby there instead. I booked RT non-stop flights from LGW to VCE on British Airways. I was able to combine Southwest Rapid Rewards and Chase Ultimate Rewards towards the tickets.

 

If all goes according to plans, we s/b in Venice by noon the day before our cruise. I still plan to book a couple flights in the UK & Irelend post-cruise, so the budget airlines advice could be very helpful.

[JVilleGal]

Well as long as we're trying to address the full story, your first post above really needs to be clarified.

"Book directly thru the airline and if things go wrong they can help you." Booking through the airline is highly recommended on this board, but it won't necessarily matter if one has booked multiple tickets, all directly through the airline.

As for advice to "make sure your reservation in on one PNR" that too is an incomplete bit of advice. One can easily have one TICKET but multiple PNR's if the itinerary includes 2+ segments on different airlines due to code share flights, and the fact that one has multiple PNR's in that case won't matter. If it's all one ticket, the airline and their partners will work together to resolve any issues.

 

 

Thanks for that, you are just super helpful!

Edited February 27, 2015 by JVilleGal

[alcpa1]

I think you will enjoy the train from Milan. If you know your Shakespeare or even the musical "Kiss Me Kate" you will sing or just smile as you stop in Padua on your way to charming Venice.

[FlyerTalker]

Since we're landing @ LHR in the afternoon and planning to spend the night, we've decided to take the 40 minute bus ride to LGW and get a room nearby there instead. I booked RT non-stop flights from LGW to VCE on British Airways. I was able to combine Southwest Rapid Rewards and Chase Ultimate Rewards towards the tickets.

I can heartily recommend Ye Olde Six Bells pub near Gatwick for dinner. Within walking distance of some of the hotels.

[6rugrats]

Some super sarcasm on this thread.

[pseudoware]

I think you will enjoy the train from Milan. If you know your Shakespeare or even the musical "Kiss Me Kate" you will sing or just smile as you stop in Padua on your way to charming Venice.

 

Yes, I was intrigued by this option, but we ended up flying to Venice after all.

 

I can heartily recommend Ye Olde Six Bells pub near Gatwick for dinner. Within walking distance of some of the hotels.

 

Nice. Hopefully close to the North terminal. A cold pint will hit the spot.

 

And to ensure I comply and disclose the "full story", 😕 I just reserved a hotel room in Venice on the Grand Canal, just steps from Piazzale Roma. But I haven't yet arranged transportation from LHR to LGW, nor from VCE to our Venice hotel. I'm all about transparency. 😉

 

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[slidergirl]

Of course a Golden Bear would make it confusing; a Bruin would have been clear and concise at the start ;) (sorry, as a Bruin, I was duty-bound to say that)…

 

I think you have done OK, now that we know the whole story. Intra-Europe is not the same as "intra-Schengen", as you have found out. And, you now have enough time between your flights that you will not be worrying/scrambling. Sorry you got beat up a little here. The Cruise Air crowd can be a bit surly (me included).

 

Enjoy your trip.

[navybankerteacher]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see these itineraries on Priceline and Hotwire, where they both appear, but the outbound one is also on the Brussels Air website. You'd think they wouldn't do that if it's an unrealistic connection.

 

Edit: I spoke w/someone with Brussels Airline. They said that flight does switch planes (different flight #s), but for flights within Europe, the 35 min s/b sufficient. I'm still not convinced.

 

If you are travelling on a passport issued by a Schengen country, this might apply - otherwise your 35 minutes is hopelessly optimistic.

[Globaliser]

Outbound - Brussels Airlines

Departs: 11:05 AM LHR To Brussels National Airport (BRU)

Arrives: 1:15 PM

Departs: 1:50 PM To Marco Polo Airport (VCE) Venice, Italy

 

Inbound - Lufthansa

Departs: 2:45 PM VCE To Frankfurt am Main Airport (FRA)

Arrives: 4:10 PM Frankfurt, Germany

Departs: 5:00 PM To Heathrow Airport (LHR)

I'm going to make a guess that these are separately purchased tickets with a ticket to get to/from the USA to LHR/return on one ticket and then separate tickets to/from VCE on the intra Europe flights.

These are both legal connections. So each of these can be bought on one ticket.

 

The first is SN2094 connecting to SN3205. The MCT is 0:35, and this connection is bang on that.

 

The other is LH327 connecting to LH916. The MCT is 0:45, as far as I can see, and this is 5 minutes more than that.

 

And in both cases, there are later departures on the same day if you miss the booked connection (of which there is a signficant risk if you're that close to MCT). So this is one of those situations where it all depends on your own risk tolerance.

[kenish]

Avoiding LHR on our return opens up many flights on budget airlines that don't use LHR. And we're flying direct both ways. The few non-stop LHR-VCE flights are ridiculously expensive.

 

As Greatam and probably Rick Steves' article both commented, budget airlines sometimes use airports far from the advertised city. Since you're from NorCal, it would be like an airline saying "San Francisco" when their flights are to Santa Rosa or even Stockton!

[JVilleGal]

I'm hoping this entire conversation has opened the OP's eyes to possible pitfalls and concerns when traveling in Europe. Love the train idea!

Have a great time :)

[pseudoware]

Of course a Golden Bear would make it confusing; a Bruin would have been clear and concise at the start ;) (sorry, as a Bruin, I was duty-bound to say that)…

 

I think you have done OK, now that we know the whole story. Intra-Europe is not the same as "intra-Schengen", as you have found out. And, you now have enough time between your flights that you will not be worrying/scrambling. Sorry you got beat up a little here. The Cruise Air crowd can be a bit surly (me included).

 

Enjoy your trip.

 

LOL, it's all good. BTW, had some very memorable wknd road trips to Westwood back in the day.

 

Thanks again for all the helpful replies. Yes, I've learned a lot. We did LHR to BCN three years ago, which was pretty straightforward, but obviously getting to VCE is different. But in the end, we have a plan we're comfortable with.

 

We're lamenting a bit on no longer taking the train from Milan. Yes, that would have been very interesting, but instead, we'll arrive in Venice about four hours sooner, which is good since we're only staying one night.

 

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[UKBayern]

If you are travelling on a passport issued by a Schengen country, this might apply - otherwise your 35 minutes is hopelessly optimistic.

 

In the case of the Schengen rules, the destination the traveller is coming from and travelling to is leading, not the passport the traveller has. If I come from the USA with a Schengen country passport and go through Brussels to Venice, I still have to stand in the same stupid line as everybody else.

Edited February 28, 2015 by UKBayern

[Zach1213]

In the case of the Schengen rules, the destination the traveller is coming from and travelling to is leading, not the passport the traveller has. If I come from the USA with a Schengen country passport and go through Brussels to Venice, I still have to stand in the same stupid line as everybody else.

 

 

The other day I was arriving in Hamburg from Manchester. The line for EU passports was 25 people long with one immigration officer. My line, for non-EU, had zero people for one immigration officer. It was great...for me.

[RJ2002]

Tagging along on this conversation...

 

For those familiar with LHR and BA:

 

I have an upcoming flight LAS-LHR-MUC. Connection at LHR to the MUC flight is 70 minutes. The MCT at LHR (within Terminal 5) is 60 minutes. As best as I can determine, I will be arriving and departing at Terminal 5.

 

Traveling in business (CW). Should we be OK, assuming of course the inbound is on time?

[6rugrats]

You should be fine.

[Zach1213]

Tagging along on this conversation...

 

For those familiar with LHR and BA:

 

I have an upcoming flight LAS-LHR-MUC. Connection at LHR to the MUC flight is 70 minutes. The MCT at LHR (within Terminal 5) is 60 minutes. As best as I can determine, I will be arriving and departing at Terminal 5.

 

Traveling in business (CW). Should we be OK, assuming of course the inbound is on time?

 

You should be okay, but don't delay. Here's the situation - you will arrive in either T5B or T5C, where the widebody planes land. You'll have to take the train (or walk...take the train) to T5A, where you will clear security. Look for Fast Track. In the morning, it can be slow here, and will take up most of your time. As of last week, I was still experiencing 15 minute waits just to clear security in the morning at T5A Fast Track.

 

Odds are your flight will leave out of T5A. It MIGHT leave out of B or C, but it's quite rare.

 

I would say that, from gate to gate in the morning, it would likely take you 30-40 minutes. Boarding tends to start 30 minutes ahead, so you're likely not going to have any time for the lounge. But that's okay, the lounges aren't great and are usually beyond packed in the morning.

[Globaliser]

... you will arrive in either T5B or T5C, where the widebody planes land. ...

 

Odds are your flight will leave out of T5A. It MIGHT leave out of B or C, but it's quite rare.

It is just possible that you'll arrive at T5A (the main building). It's happened to me only once so far, and also only once to my companion.

 

If you arrive at T5B or T5C, then before you start to descend towards the transit, look on the Flight Connections display screens in the satellite. If your onward flight is listed there, you'll be allowed to use the security checkpoint in that satellite without having to go to the main building. This will save quite a bit of time. But if it's not listed, then you will have to head down to the transit and go to T5A.

 

70 minutes should be fine if you don't dawdle. If you're in a long queue and you're getting close to your onward flight time, make yourself known and ask for help.

[RJ2002]

You should be okay, but don't delay. Here's the situation - you will arrive in either T5B or T5C, where the widebody planes land. You'll have to take the train (or walk...take the train) to T5A, where you will clear security. Look for Fast Track. In the morning, it can be slow here, and will take up most of your time. As of last week, I was still experiencing 15 minute waits just to clear security in the morning at T5A Fast Track.

 

Odds are your flight will leave out of T5A. It MIGHT leave out of B or C, but it's quite rare.

 

I would say that, from gate to gate in the morning, it would likely take you 30-40 minutes. Boarding tends to start 30 minutes ahead, so you're likely not going to have any time for the lounge. But that's okay, the lounges aren't great and are usually beyond packed in the morning.

 

It is just possible that you'll arrive at T5A (the main building). It's happened to me only once so far, and also only once to my companion.

 

If you arrive at T5B or T5C, then before you start to descend towards the transit, look on the Flight Connections display screens in the satellite. If your onward flight is listed there, you'll be allowed to use the security checkpoint in that satellite without having to go to the main building. This will save quite a bit of time. But if it's not listed, then you will have to head down to the transit and go to T5A.

 

70 minutes should be fine if you don't dawdle. If you're in a long queue and you're getting close to your onward flight time, make yourself known and ask for help.

 

Zach1213 and Globaliser, thanks very much for your input.

 

I've had standalone arrivals and departures at LHR, and T5, but never a connection. Our flight arrives at 3:25pm, so hopefully we won't experience crowds similar to the morning arrivals. We definitely can skip the lounges as well, so we'll keep our fingers crossed the inbound in on time, and make our way through the process as you both have described. Thanks again. :)

[Zach1213]

It is just possible that you'll arrive at T5A (the main building). It's happened to me only once so far, and also only once to my companion.

 

If you arrive at T5B or T5C, then before you start to descend towards the transit, look on the Flight Connections display screens in the satellite. If your onward flight is listed there, you'll be allowed to use the security checkpoint in that satellite without having to go to the main building. This will save quite a bit of time. But if it's not listed, then you will have to head down to the transit and go to T5A.

 

70 minutes should be fine if you don't dawdle. If you're in a long queue and you're getting close to your onward flight time, make yourself known and ask for help.

 

I did see a 744 @ T5A last week and it make me scratch my head.

 

I've had bad luck with the flight connections signs for regional (intra-Europe) flights. If I get off a longhaul at B or C and look for a regional flight (most recently to Zurich), it never seems to be listed. In that case, I always head to A because it's going out of there 99% of the time in my experience.

[Globaliser]

I did see a 744 @ T5A last week and it make me scratch my head.

The time that it happened to me, I was facing a cabin crew member in a jump seat. We'd had some exchanges at the beginning of the flight about a technical issue, so she knew that I wasn't a neophyte. I saw that we were turning in to T5A, but she couldn't from her seat. So I told her, and was surprised to see the look of pleasure on her face at not having to deal with the transit that morning. So it's a relative rarity even for the long-haul crew.

 

Lest RJ2002 be worried about that comment: AIUI the transit was usually only a problem in the morning peak, and in any event its capacity has been improved with more recent work.

I've had bad luck with the flight connections signs for regional (intra-Europe) flights. If I get off a longhaul at B or C and look for a regional flight (most recently to Zurich), it never seems to be listed. In that case, I always head to A because it's going out of there 99% of the time in my experience.

I think that departing flights are listed on the displays in the satellite only if they're confirmed to be departing from the satellite in question. That's why you can then use the security checkpoint in the satellite.

 

I don't know what experiences people have recently had with trying to insist on using the security checkpoints in the satellites if their flights are not listed. Since the level -4 walkways were opened and signed for general use, it's become technically much easier to clear in the satellite and then walk back to T5A if necessary. But that's a process refinement that's better left to those who know their way around T5 very well already.

[pseudoware]

If arriving at LHR T3 (from the U.S.) and wanting to catch a National Express coach, how much time between scheduled arrival and coach departure should I allow, flight delays notwithstanding?

 

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