Will HAL follow Celebrity and install separate suite class dining rooms on its ships

[3rdGenCunarder]

Our sense is that HAL and others are encouraging customers to avoid the MDR in favour of pay dining venues or upgrades to cats. that include a premium dining experience.

 

They are achieving this by the constant decline in MDR food quality, preparation, and levels of service. We laugh when we read HAL,s description of their MDR gala night dinner...a five course gourmet dinner. This is taking poetic license to the extreme. It was always good, banquet food now it is usually poor banquet food.

 

 

Exactly: the "one class" concept of cruising which has pertained for a few decades seems to be on the way out. It must be that the lines feel that they can maximize earnings by offering comfort and high quality to one class of passenger, and cheap low cost service to another -- and then offer small revenue producing add-ons such as drink packages, early boarding, whatever.

 

Of course the market has evolved so it must be expected that the product will as well. Cruising used to be for the well off, usually more mature demographic more comfortable with the traditional approach - now it is for a much wider and younger passenger mix.

 

There are a lot of people whose main criterion for a cruise is that it's cheap. If they aren't fussy about food or ambiance, the cruise line can get away with a lower-quality product.

 

Sadly, a lot of families don't eat what I was raised to consider a proper dinner. Kids are overscheduled into activities and Mom and Dad both work, so somebody grabs take-out on the way home. If their idea of dining out is Mickey D's, what iancal calls "poor banquet food" is probably satisfactory to them.

 

A lot of travel has become an experiment to see just how poor the experience can be before people refuse to buy it. Look at plane travel. Once upon a time, even economy seats were comfortable and you were fed a reasonable meal--not gourmet, but considering how tiny the galley is, the food was OK. Now it's torture to fly economy. BUT if you can/are willing to pay, there is still a nice experience available. So they're serving two markets at the same time. Cruising may be going down that path.

[RocketMan275]

Exactly: the "one class" concept of cruising which has pertained for a few decades seems to be on the way out. It must be that the lines feel that they can maximize earnings by offering comfort and high quality to one class of passenger, and cheap low cost service to another -- and then offer small revenue producing add-ons such as drink packages, early boarding, whatever.

 

Of course the market has evolved so it must be expected that the product will as well. Cruising used to be for the well off, usually more mature demographic more comfortable with the traditional approach - now it is for a much wider and younger passenger mix.

 

Service and quality has declined due to the competitive environment. The "one class" concept has become the "low-cost, low quality, one-class" concept. The cruise lines that establish a suites only dining experience are catering to a segment of the cruising population that would enjoy and would pay for, a more upscale experience. This "higher cost, higher quality, two-class" concept does not detract from the cruising experience of those who prefer to pay for a lower cost cruising experience.

 

We prefer to avoid the MDR since we find it crowded, noisy, and, generally, just not worth the effort. We found the suites only dining facility "Coastal Kitchens" on Oasis to be a wonderful place for dining. Of course, we paid a significant amount for this benefit.

[RocketMan275]

I always book a suite but sure wouldn't care for separate dining. What's the point? And someone mentioned Pinnacle and Neptune only. Aren't Signatures considered suites?

 

Signature Suites may be "considered" to be suites but there are significant differences between the amenities for Signature suites and for other suites like the Pinnacle and Nepture. For example, Signature suites do not have access to the Neptune Lounge. Nor do they qualify for breakfast in the Pinnacle Grill.

[KirkNC]

I have never liked dividing up by class, not on airplanes and not on cruises. That's one reason we have never sailed Canard.

 

In order to enhance one group HAL would either have to raise prices or cut back the quality of the lower level group.

 

The ship in HAL's fleet that could pull this off would be the Prinsendam because of the smaller dining room located more mid ships from the MDR.

[sppunk]

I have never liked dividing up by class, not on airplanes and not on cruises. That's one reason we have never sailed Canard.

 

In order to enhance one group HAL would either have to raise prices or cut back the quality of the lower level group.

 

The ship in HAL's fleet that could pull this off would be the Prinsendam because of the smaller dining room located more mid ships from the MDR.

 

Cunard is about the least class split lines now actually.

 

I guess you only fly Southwest?

[dakrewser]

Cunard is about the least class split lines now actually.

 

I guess you only fly Southwest?

 

Really? Who else has more than 2 restricted dining rooms?

 

And there's a reason SW is the all-time leader in customer service awards, and it's about more than low prices.

[Bostonjetset]

I have never liked dividing up by class, not on airplanes and not on cruises. That's one reason we have never sailed Canard.

 

In order to enhance one group HAL would either have to raise prices or cut back the quality of the lower level group.

 

The ship in HAL's fleet that could pull this off would be the Prinsendam because of the smaller dining room located more mid ships from the MDR.

 

I do believe this is most people's fear...that the non-suite staterooms will suffer massive declines in service/product in order for the few at the top to get enhanced offerings. We have seen this most dramatically with airlines...as 3rdGen stated, it is torture to fly coach class, especially domestically and that was not the case historically. Of course 1st class always got more and rightfully so but now coach is basically like riding the Greyhound but with smaller seats and domestic 1st class is really just larger seats coupled with the service that used to be standard in coach.

 

Other cruise lines, notably NCL, have adopted this concept as well to some degree. Their MDR food is so mediocre that it really encourages people to pay extra for the upcharge restaurants for at least a few nights of their trip. Those in Haven suites never really need to leave their dedicated Haven area for the entire trip if they chose not too...they have their own restaurant, their own pool, lounge, deck, etc.

 

I've never sailed with Celebrity so can't comment on them, but I will state that Cunard is one line that has done this right, perhaps because they've always operated this way and their ships were built with this system already in place so the space was not carved out of existing public areas. They offer a wonderful product to all levels of accommodation. Of course they have had cutbacks [as all lines have] and they are complained about here on CC but long-time passengers [as all lines are] but overall they still offer an elegant experience with good food and wonderful entertainment for every passenger. Those in Princess Grill suites do get a larger stateroom with a more upscale restaurant and Queens Grill gets an even larger stateroom/suite with an even more upscale restaurant. They have one lounge and one small outside deck space for their exclusive use but everything else on the ship is open to everyone.

 

I, for one, would not be opposed to HAL going in the direction of Cunard but would certainly be sad if it went in the direction of NCL [or especially the airlines!]. Those who pay more [usually MUCH more] should certainly get more but it needn't come at the expense of downgrading the experience of everyone else.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Bostonjetset

[3rdGenCunarder]

Really? Who else has more than 2 restricted dining rooms?

 

And there's a reason SW is the all-time leader in customer service awards, and it's about more than low prices.

 

Yes, Cunard has several "levels" of dining rooms. But as one who has almost always been in the main dining room, instead of one of the "higher" dining rooms, I don't resent those in the Grills. They pay a lot of money for that privilege (in addition to getting bigger "real estate"). Maybe it's the kind of people who sail on Cunard, but nobody goes around announcing that he/she is in Queens Grill or Princess Grill. People interact all around the ship with no concern for who is in what accommodation.

 

On QM2, except for the dining rooms and one bar, all the other public spaces--lounges, theatre, planetarium/lecture hall, library, afternoon tea, etc--are open to everyone. There is NO roped-off section of the theatre for suite pax as I've heard about on other lines (RCCL?), which is certainly waving "suite privilege" in the faces of the common folk.

[RJ2002]

And there's a reason SW is the all-time leader in customer service awards, and it's about more than low prices.

 

After their recent IT debacle, I have a feeling this may change. And yes, I am a SW fan... fly them all the time, though luckily not during the meltdown.

[sail7seas]

I'm not very familiar with NCL but don't they also have a separate dining area for their suite guests? I thought I read that but could have been mistaken. :confused:

 

 

I sailed in Penthousxe on NCL last summer and could have breakfast and lunch in a separate dining room. It was smaller, aquieter and very good xervice. It was only forf butler/convcierge level suites

Edited August 7, 2016 by sail7seas

[sail7seas]

I'm not very familiar with NCL but don't they also have a separate dining area for their suite guests? I thought I read that but could have been mistaken. :confused:

 

 

I sailed in Penthousxe on NCL last summer and could have reakfast andf lunch in a separate eining room. It was smaller, aquieter and very good service. It was only forf butler/convcierge level suites

[RJ2002]

I would not be opposed to HAL creating separate dining areas for suite passengers, so long as it was apparent that the food selection, quality and service would be an improvement over the MDR.

[sppunk]

Really? Who else has more than 2 restricted dining rooms?

 

And there's a reason SW is the all-time leader in customer service awards, and it's about more than low prices.

 

RCCL, Celebrity, NCL all have MUCH more "class restricted" things. Blocked off spaces in showrooms, special reserved seating at events, dedicated lounges that used to be open to all. Cunard has two dining rooms, a little deck area and a small lounge.

 

Outside of that on the ship there is no separation, which isn't the same anymore on those other lines I mentioned specifically.

 

I couldn't care less about private dining rooms - more power to them and can't disagree with it at all, but like it when lines keep public spaces accessible to everyone regardless of cabin category.

Edited August 7, 2016 by sppunk

[rossworld]

I'm not very familiar with NCL but don't they also have a separate dining area for their suite guests? I thought I read that but could have been mistaken. :confused:

 

Haven Suites on NCL have a dining room available for all 3 meals. Other suites

have a special dining room available for breakfast & lunch;)

[CaveDiving]

One of the things I really like about HAL is that once you leave your cabin it doesn't matter anymore. Inside, Ocean-View, and Suits all get the same opportunity for food, service, and public space.

 

I agree with these sentiments completely and absolutely. Thanks for expressing them. This was one of the main reasons I selected HAL over Cunard originally.

 

Scott & Karen

[cruisemom42]

Exactly: the "one class" concept of cruising which has pertained for a few decades seems to be on the way out. It must be that the lines feel that they can maximize earnings by offering comfort and high quality to one class of passenger, and cheap low cost service to another -- and then offer small revenue producing add-ons such as drink packages, early boarding, whatever.

 

 

And I, for one, will be sad to see that concept go. It's what cruising has always meant for me. I feel like I am being squeezed out -- as I am neither the suite passenger nor the cheap, low cost passenger.

 

 

 

One of the things I really like about HAL is that once you leave your cabin it doesn't matter anymore. Inside, Ocean-View, and Suits all get the same opportunity for food, service, and public space.

 

 

Agree with this as well. I'm more of an egalitarian. Having different dining rooms for different classes of passengers seems elitist to me. Are the great, unwashed masses on HAL so bad that the suite guests can't be expected to eat with them? If it's about better food, isn't that what the specialty restaurants are supposed to be about?

[3rdGenCunarder]

And I, for one, will be sad to see that concept go. It's what cruising has always meant for me. I feel like I am being squeezed out -- as I am neither the suite passenger nor the cheap, low cost passenger.

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with this as well. I'm more of an egalitarian. Having different dining rooms for different classes of passengers seems elitist to me. Are the great, unwashed masses on HAL so bad that the suite guests can't be expected to eat with them? If it's about better food, isn't that what the specialty restaurants are supposed to be about?

 

It is not about avoiding anyone. It's about the dining experience--better food, more choices, better service ratio. The only practical way to do this is to have a separate restaurant.

 

Suppose they simply designated some tables in the MDR for suties passengers, who would have a different menu. Suppose you were sitting near a suites table. Wouldn't it bother you to be eating from the MDR menu and see a giant shrimp cocktail and/or filet mignon go past on its way to a suites table? You'd ask why you couldn't have that, and then your poor waiter would be in the position of having to explain it. Awkward, very awkward.

 

Yes, there's a specialty restaurant. But the menu never changes because it's aimed at providing a special meal once in a while, not every night. And if all the suites people got priority reservations, then the "great unwashed (your term, not mine!) would be unhappy that they were being shut out of the best days and times there.

 

I've been in suites, I've been in "steerage." I've been at the front of the plane and at the back of the plane. As long as I feel I'm getting good value for my money, I'm satisfied. I don't begrudge the extras that some people get because they paid more.

Edited August 7, 2016 by 3rdGenCunarder

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

I hope not

[RocketMan275]

I'm more of an egalitarian. Having different dining rooms for different classes of passengers seems elitist to me. Are the great, unwashed masses on HAL so bad that the suite guests can't be expected to eat with them? If it's about better food, isn't that what the specialty restaurants are supposed to be about?

 

Elitism holds that someone should get more merely because they are a member of an elite group. The idea that those who pay more should get more is the opposite of elitism.

[cruisemom42]

Elitism holds that someone should get more merely because they are a member of an elite group. The idea that those who pay more should get more is the opposite of elitism.

 

Kind of an interesting way of looking at it. "Elite" is usually defined as those who have the most wealth and status. Traditionally, elites have spent a lot of money to ensure that they are separated from the non-elites.

 

How exactly is this different?

 

(And if I want to retain one of the things that I have always most liked about cruising, what does it matter.... HAL boards are full of posts from others who don't like various changes. This just happens to be one that matters to me. :cool:)

[RocketMan275]

Kind of an interesting way of looking at it. "Elite" is usually defined as those who have the most wealth and status. Traditionally, elites have spent a lot of money to ensure that they are separated from the non-elites.

 

Wealth is not the same as status. Here's a definition:

 

Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern. (Answers.com)

 

If you're paying for something, it is not being dispensed based upon status.

 

Now, if there was a restaurant on-board that only allowed for Five Star Mariners, then that would be something dispensed based upon status.

[cruisemom42]

Wealth is not the same as status. Here's a definition:

 

Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern. (Answers.com)

 

If you're paying for something, it is not being dispensed based upon status.

 

Now, if there was a restaurant on-board that only allowed for Five Star Mariners, then that would be something dispensed based upon status.

 

We can bandy definitions until the cows come home, but even the one you've chosen includes wealth (as highlighted above).

 

At any rate, I hope HAL does not change one of the things I enjoy about cruising.

[iancal]

It would not bother us if the cruise lines only provided a reasonable buffet that had reasonable hours of operation.

 

We would not have an issue if all other dining was pay dining IF the food quality, preparation, and service levels were reasonable.

 

We would prefer this to holding the line on cruise fares and constantly seeing the service and food quality being reduced. Happy to do pay as we go...at least we would not have to subsidize those that we have seen order multiple entrees, appetizers, and desserts at one sitting just because there is no charge.

[frankc98376]

Was thinking back to the "Old HAL" days before Carnival and remembered that the Lido was open for staff only at dinner time. Passengers only had MDR at assigned tables.

 

Lido re-opened I believe around 9 for snack buffet and then at 11:30 for Midnight Buffet.

[cbr663]

I don't believe that having better food and a better experience means a separate dining room. Obviously some cruise lines want you to believe that as it helps their bottom line, but that doesn't mean that it is true.

 

In its 2015 Annual Report, Carnival Corp noted food costs of $981 million for the year and 11 million passengers. That's less than $90 per passenger. (This number per passenger is actually lower as the total food costs also include feeding crews.) But take that $90 per passenger to arrive at a daily cost and a per meal cost, and the numbers become ridiculously low.

 

It was easy for the cruise lines to convince passengers to fork over extra money for speciality dining. Offer steep discounts and promos while reducing the quality and offerings that are provided as a normal course of the cruise and people started to open up to paying extra for "better" dining. Total costs for the cruise lines were maybe a couple of extra dollars per meal while revenues shot up.

 

So how do you carry this behaviour change further across the ship? Create the perception of a better suite experience. We know that during the recession suite demand dropped considerably. Suites were attracting some of the lowest revenues per square foot on the ship making them to least profitable for the cruise lines. Extra amenities and complimentary cocktail hours were attractive to some, but not attractive enough to start raising ticket prices.

 

Much the same concept of a speciality restaurant, a suite only private dining room merely moves a certain number of passengers from the MDR to a different dining venue where additional costs are minimal. But, a different environment with different menu offerings of only slight improvement and the promise of exclusivity means the cruise lines can now start raising ticket prices.

 

But moving passengers around on the same ship still means that they are on the same ship. Put another way, McDonald's has introduced the "Create Your Taste" format in its restaurants. Friends have told me the the food tastes better, is presented better, is of higher quality, and yes, costs more. All great things, but it is still McDonald's.