Vancouver to Seward...Missed ship...

[galavant3]

This happened to us trying to get to Vancouver for an Alaskan cruise a few years back. Bad weather stuck us in Dallas and while we didn't actually miss our flight, the delay meant we would miss the sailing. Choice Air, which doesn't actually guarantee anything but help in case of problems, said PVSA would prevent us from joining the ship at any other port. We verified this with our TA, who also verified it with Celebrity. No options. We spent the night in Dallas and returned home the next day, immediately starting the process for our travel insurance claim (we received full compensation for everything, including the night we spent in Dallas). For 10 or 12 cruises, we had always flown to the departure port day-of with no issues. That was the last time. Knowing we can do nothing about the weather, or antiquated laws, now we always arrive a day or two early, and fully insured. We're trying Alaska again in September, with two days pre-cruise in Seattle and fingers crossed.

 

 

Thank you for sharing this. I know that it seems like an easy way to save a few dollars but I think travel insurance is so necessary. You just never know what might happen.

 

 

 

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[martincath]

Flight delays caused my friends to miss the ship's departure in Vancouver yesterday. Celebrity says they cannot board because there are no more foreign ports and the PSVA. They are willing to pay the fine. Has this happened to anyone and were you able to board or know of someone. Did you pay the fine? Were you able to board in Ketchikan or Juneau.

Sucks that they're unable to join their cruise - if they're stuck in Vancouver at least there are worse places to be. I'd be willing to meet up with them and give them some ideas of how to spend their vaycay time locally and even show them around a bit - pass along my CC email cruisecriticmarty @ gmail dot com

[CoachT]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

[Islander500]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

 

Great news for them & good to know. YAY CELEBRITY! ;)

[warmwinds]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

 

The "know it alls" were just stating the law.

 

I'd really like to know if it had something to do with Choice Air - similar to if you are on an X shore excursion they will hold the ship for you, whereas on your own they will not.

 

Please do come back with the details once you learn them so that it can help others.

[Living4acruise2day]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

I am very happy for your friends and hopefully you will come back and let us know the details, but to call all of the great people here "know it all's" was truly unkind. I believe everyone was trying to help you.

[chengkp75]

Enlighten those of us who do not know - who was the law originally intended to protect from what?

 

A Wiki article providing an overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

 

And as is frequently the case, Wiki has an article posted by someone with an agenda, and it is taken as gospel. The PVSA was enacted long before maritime labor was organized. In the middle of the 19th century, there were a huge number of explosions and fires onboard the steamboats that plied America's rivers and harbors. This led to the Steamboat Act of 1852 (actually earlier acts were not efficient), which required all steamboats to be inspected by the Steamboat Inspection Service (the forerunner of today's USCG Marine Safety Division), and to meet certain safety standards. The ship owners did not wish to pay for the inspections or the safety measures, so they reflagged their ships to foreign flag. This lead to the PVSA, which required all domestic ("coastwise") shipping to be on US owned, US built, US flagged, and US crewed ships. This forced the ships to be inspected by the SIS, and reduced the number of fires, explosions, and deaths.

 

As to what the PVSA protects today, you must remember that it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the Cruise Ship Services Act, and one must understand what the definition of a Passenger Vessel is. A passenger vessel is any vessel that carries "more than 12 passengers". This is why container ships that carry passengers will only carry 12, they don't want to be classed as a passenger vessel, and be required to meet the additional legal requirements of a passenger vessel. Now, what besides a cruise ship carries more than 12 passengers? Ferries, commuter boats, water taxis, dinner cruises, casino boats, duck tours, whale watching boats, and even charter fishing boats. Without the PVSA, all of these vessels would be free to flag to a flag of convenience and bypass most US laws regarding taxes, wages, and USCG safety regulations, and the crew jobs would become foreign labor.

[chengkp75]

I would bet that no one in recent government (regardless of political party) even knows about this law. It is truly archaic and also applies to airlines. For example you can fly an American flagged airline anywhere in the world but you cannot fly a foreign flagged airline from one US airport to another US airport.

 

Actually, Congress and the Maritime Administration are very aware of both the PVSA and the Jones Act. It does not apply to airlines, that is the Civil Aviation Act.

[chengkp75]

They know. Don't know whether this amendment would have addressed this area in its entirety, but like everything else, it becomes a quagmire of special interests and lobbyists.

 

http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/industry-rises-in-opposition-to-mccain-jones-act-amendment

 

The problem here is that you are confusing the Jones Act (cargo ships) with the PVSA (passenger ships). McCain has been working for decades to gut the Jones Act, so that the farm interests can send their product overseas on foreign ships at a discount.

[chengkp75]

Actually, some do know.

 

NCL worked with Alaska congressmen to try to change the law because NCL did not like the competition from other cruise lines cruising from west coast USA ports to Hawaii and back to the same USA west coast port with a stop in Ensenada, Mexico to satisfy the PVSA requirements. What they wanted was a requirement that such closed loop cruises would have to spend 50% of their port time in foreign ports, a requirement that would not only eliminate the mainland round-trips to Hawaii, but also all round-trip Alaska cruises out of Seattle and and many closed loop cruises from east coast ports to Canada.

 

NCL wanted the other cruise lines to meet the "intent" of the PVSA, not just the "letter". The cruise lines from the West Coast were using a midnight, two hour "technical port stop" in Ensenada, where no passengers were allowed ashore, and it was just to get the ship's papers stamped. CBP was the one who came up with the 50% rule, and when this was proposed by CBP, NCL stated they didn't like this proposal, and it ended up with the West Coast lines being required to advertise the Ensenada call, and to allow passengers ashore.

[chengkp75]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

 

CBP frequently grants exemptions to the PVSA for mechanical reasons on the ship, weather at the foreign port, flight delays caused by weather, passenger disembarkation for illness or death.

[donaldsc]

They had Celebrity Air which promises to get them to the next port. The FINE per the website is $300 per person.

 

They may have had Celebrity Air and they may think that they were promised to be gotten to the next port. However, I am sure that is they read the contract they agreed to when they book and when they booked Celebrity Air, there is something in there that gets Celebrity off the hook.

 

DON

[Islander500]

The problem here is that you are confusing the Jones Act (cargo ships) with the PVSA (passenger ships). McCain has been working for decades to gut the Jones Act, so that the farm interests can send their product overseas on foreign ships at a discount.

 

You are right. I've really learned a lot about this on this thread. Thanks for your help. :beer-toast:

[Jade13]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

 

 

 

You mentioned "cruisetour". Can you elaborate when you find out as it sounds like they may have a land tour portion of their trip ending in some other location.

 

 

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[hcat]

Our upcoming Ca coastal cruise, RT LA ( San Pedro) has all US ports plus Ensenada as actual port stop. I suspect many will stay on board but there are excursions offered and is treated as a " real" port.

 

Our Hawaii cruise RT San Pedro, some yrs ago , had the nightime stop..no one allowed off. I think other Hawaii cruises went to an Island not part of the U S...to technically satisfy the laws..

 

In the end, very happy to hear the OPs friends are onboard...and will hopefully have a great cruise!

[chengkp75]

Our upcoming Ca coastal cruise, RT LA ( San Pedro) has all US ports plus Ensenada as actual port stop. I suspect many will stay on board but there are excursions offered and is treated as a " real" port.

 

Our Hawaii cruise RT San Pedro, some yrs ago , had the nightime stop..no one allowed off. I think other Hawaii cruises went to an Island not part of the U S...to technically satisfy the laws..

 

In the end, very happy to hear the OPs friends are onboard...and will hopefully have a great cruise!

 

That was NCL's foreign flag ships doing a round trip Hawaii cruise, they went to Fanning Island in the Republic of Kiribati, about 700 miles south of the Big Island. That was not a "technical" port call, as the day was spent on the island with a cookout, sailboat rentals in the lagoon, etc.

[Cruise Junky]

Once again the Celebrity reps and apparently those on this board who appear to know it all were wrong. My friends called me half an hour ago. They are onboard the ship and will continue with the rest of their cruisetour. I don't know other details about the how or why, but they are thrilled to say the least.

Can you let us know where they were able to board the ship?

[hcat]

That was NCL's foreign flag ships doing a round trip Hawaii cruise, they went to Fanning Island in the Republic of Kiribati, about 700 miles south of the Big Island. That was not a "technical" port call, as the day was spent on the island with a cookout, sailboat rentals in the lagoon, etc.

 

Sounds interesting but a long ways away from Hawaii... We loved the Celeb RT Hawaii itin...it was on Summit...lots of sea days at the expense of Hawaii port days, but we had a great time.

[ChucktownSteve]

This is so very, very sad. Although there may not be a resolution for your friends, you are helping others by posting this. For all of the people that fly in the day of the cruise, this is a vacationers worst nightmare. I am sure more people make it and are okay, but I would not want to be the one taking that chance. Just like I am one of those people that will never book an early flight home from the cruise.

 

Two years ago I was booked to fly in the day BEFORE embarkation but American Airlines cancelled the flight to Vancouver and automatically booked me two days later to land there after the ship had already sailed. Then for eight hours on hold on three phone lines simultaneously, they refused to answer. After two hours they'd disconnect. Or when you redialed it would say, your call is important to us...please hold. That was another two hours. Or the person who would answer said, that's an international flight and transfer you to another three hour hold that auto disconnected.

 

Bottom line, we couldn't make our flight and booking another airline would have cost more than the cost of the 10 day cruise. Due to the laws, we couldn't catch up either.

 

Our next year's Alaska cruise is out of Seattle.

[varoo]

Two years ago I was booked to fly in the day BEFORE embarkation but American Airlines cancelled the flight to Vancouver and automatically booked me two days later to land there after the ship had already sailed. Then for eight hours on hold on three phone lines simultaneously, they refused to answer. After two hours they'd disconnect. Or when you redialed it would say, your call is important to us...please hold. That was another two hours. Or the person who would answer said, that's an international flight and transfer you to another three hour hold that auto disconnected.

 

Bottom line, we couldn't make our flight and booking another airline would have cost more than the cost of the 10 day cruise. Due to the laws, we couldn't catch up either.

Sorry that happened to you.

This is a good example of why we try to find out in advance what alternate routing options are available whenever we travel, especially when timing is critical, such a when catching a cruise ship.

 

If our flight gets cancelled, almost everyone on it will be trying to get on the next flight to the same destination and the airline will give priority to their highest category customers--(not us).

On a similar experience trying to get to Vancouver when our flight was cancelled and the following flights were overbooked, we rerouted to Seattle instead of waiting on standby for the next flight to Vancouver, where we knew our chances of getting on would be slim to none.

From Seattle, we knew we would have lots of options (bus, or train, or short commuter flight, or renting a car) to get us up to Vancouver in time to catch our cruise.

Another backup option for us would have been flying into Bellingham, but at that point Bellingham was "iffy" while Seattle was a sure thing.

 

Conversely, when we want to to fly into Seattle, we know we can use Bellingham or Portland or Vancouver airports as backups, just in case........

 

 

More recently, in a similar situation trying to fly to San Diego when the flights were oversold, we re-routed to Santa Ana instead, and rented a car there for the short drive down to San Diego.

We could even have flown to LA instead of sitting around on hold on a telephone trying to get on an already oversold backup flight to San Diego (but Santa Ana was closer).

Of course, there are not always alternate routing options available at all locations and in all situations.

But whenever possible, we like to leave ourselves enough time to be able to pursue alternative options, should it become necessary.

To the OP, so glad it all worked out well for your friends after all.

Edited June 26, 2017 by varoo

[caribill]

You mentioned "cruisetour". Can you elaborate when you find out as it sounds like they may have a land tour portion of their trip ending in some other location.

 

 

 

PVSA does not apply to the land portion of a cruisetour.

 

It applies only to where you boarded the ship and to where you finally left the ship.

[mo&fran]

And as is frequently the case, Wiki has an article posted by someone with an agenda, and it is taken as gospel. The PVSA was enacted long before maritime labor was organized. In the middle of the 19th century, there were a huge number of explosions and fires onboard the steamboats that plied America's rivers and harbors. This led to the Steamboat Act of 1852 (actually earlier acts were not efficient), which required all steamboats to be inspected by the Steamboat Inspection Service (the forerunner of today's USCG Marine Safety Division), and to meet certain safety standards. The ship owners did not wish to pay for the inspections or the safety measures, so they reflagged their ships to foreign flag. This lead to the PVSA, which required all domestic ("coastwise") shipping to be on US owned, US built, US flagged, and US crewed ships. This forced the ships to be inspected by the SIS, and reduced the number of fires, explosions, and deaths.

 

As to what the PVSA protects today, you must remember that it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act, not the Cruise Ship Services Act, and one must understand what the definition of a Passenger Vessel is. A passenger vessel is any vessel that carries "more than 12 passengers". This is why container ships that carry passengers will only carry 12, they don't want to be classed as a passenger vessel, and be required to meet the additional legal requirements of a passenger vessel. Now, what besides a cruise ship carries more than 12 passengers? Ferries, commuter boats, water taxis, dinner cruises, casino boats, duck tours, whale watching boats, and even charter fishing boats. Without the PVSA, all of these vessels would be free to flag to a flag of convenience and bypass most US laws regarding taxes, wages, and USCG safety regulations, and the crew jobs would become foreign labor.

 

I would bet you could fix the Wiki and post a correction.

[dodger1964]

To OP, great news.

 

We have flown in day of cruise many times...some HAVE to fly in 3 days early and fly back 3 days later because whatever boogie man thing might happen. Obviously there can be delays, but they are statistically very small...I suppose unless you are the statistic.

 

One question on the "law"...why is there a "fine" if as some say, the ship is breaking the law...I mean is it as simple as saying, YES, the law was broken and YES we will pay a $300 fine and that's the end of the story?

[chengkp75]

To OP, great news.

 

We have flown in day of cruise many times...some HAVE to fly in 3 days early and fly back 3 days later because whatever boogie man thing might happen. Obviously there can be delays, but they are statistically very small...I suppose unless you are the statistic.

 

One question on the "law"...why is there a "fine" if as some say, the ship is breaking the law...I mean is it as simple as saying, YES, the law was broken and YES we will pay a $300 fine and that's the end of the story?

 

Yes, the ship is breaking the law, and the cruise line is who is fined, but the ticket contract is where you allow the cruise line to pass the fine on to you. The cruise line is not allowed to knowingly, or in advance, violate the law. If they do so repeatedly, they run the risk of not being allowed to embark passengers in US ports.

[RDC1]

It's really an obsolete law since AFAIK there are no US flagged US ships that carry passengers from a US port to a US port (other than perhaps a river boat) to protect....which is why the law was put in place in the first place.

 

Unfortunately, no one in government seems to care enough about this archaic law to get it repealed...

 

Not as obsolete as you think. The law applies to a great many active, working ships, including but not limited to ferries, charter boats, tour boats, etc.