Must cancel first leg of B2B due to Jones Act/Passenger Services Act ... Options?

[Ourusualbeach]

I am confused about this part. Aren't these northbound iternaries ending up in Seward Alaska which is an US port? Is it considered legal?

All the one way Alaska cruises depart from A Canadian port therefore no issue.

 

Round trip cruises depart from Seattle and stop in a Canadian port.

[Goofyisme]

Vancouver and Victoria are foreign ports and as such you can do round trips from a US port to Alaska stopping in one of those ports.

 

I may be mistaken but for Ensenada I believe that is still a foreign port that would be used in a round trip to Hawaii. If it is a one way from Hawaii to San Fransisco I have seen them disembark passengers in Ensenada (or vice versa) to make it a legal cruise as Ensenada is not a distant foreign port.

 

You are correct. Ensenada is often the "technical" stop for roundtrip cruises to Hawaii. Such stops are often very brief.

[pwake]

There is another option. Keep the reservation and pay the $300pp fine. Or perhaps Royal Caribbean is planning on paying it on your behalf. I’d ask them.

 

 

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[S.S.Oceanlover]

There is another option. Keep the reservation and pay the $300pp fine. Or perhaps Royal Caribbean is planning on paying it on your behalf. I’d ask them.

 

 

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You can't knowingly violate the law and pay the $300 pp in order to circumvent the law.

 

Bill

 

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[MGB555]

When I got around to reading the 41 pages of the roll call for my Snowbird migration cruise in fall of 2018, I found out on the first page that another cruiser was happily reporting they had booked the previous cruise as a B2B. Another poster apologized for being the bearer of bad news but said that Royal shouldn't have allowed them to book it because it violated the Jones Act/Passenger Services Act. As I continued to read the posts, there were others who were happily sharing their plans as well, and then getting them dashed. Not sure at what point Royal intends to contact people like me who are also booked on both, but that original post was two weeks prior to when I worked with someone on the phone to insure I got the same cabin for both cruises. I'm rather frustrated that Royal hasn't trained their phone staff, since this all happened last spring and I'm now just finding out I have to change my plans.

 

In any case, I'm looking for suggestions. So far I have come up with three options and would welcome any input so I can make sure I end up with the best possible experience. What would you do in my situation and are there other options that you would suggest I consider?

 

Option One - Anthem to Bermuda (5-day) Sept 29 – Oct4

Sailing From New York, returning to NewYork

Option Two - NCL Escape to Bermuda (7-day) Sept 30 – Oct7

Sailing From New York, returning to NewYork

Option Three - NCL Dawn to Canada (7-day) Sept 28 – Oct5

Sailing From Boston, ending in QuebecCity

 

Hello! It's Mike and Rob from Trivia from the Norway Fjords cruise. What a strange law to have to deal with. What I find really odd is that Canada doesn't count as a foreign port! So if I understand, you can't start and stop in two different USA locations? Hope you are well. We have booked an 11 day southern Carib. on Norwegian in January from Tampa.

[PCWalton1]

You are correct. Ensenada is often the "technical" stop for roundtrip cruises to Hawaii. Such stops are often very brief.

 

In Fall of 2015 we did two RT cruises on Jewel out of San Pedro (LA) with stops in Ensenada to make them legal.

[chengkp75]

Hello! It's Mike and Rob from Trivia from the Norway Fjords cruise. What a strange law to have to deal with. What I find really odd is that Canada doesn't count as a foreign port! So if I understand, you can't start and stop in two different USA locations? Hope you are well. We have booked an 11 day southern Carib. on Norwegian in January from Tampa.

 

No, Canadian ports count as foreign ports, but not as distant foreign ports. A cruise that starts in one US port, and ends in a different US port, must visit a distant foreign port, defined by CBP as any port "not in North or Central America, the Caribbean, or the Bahamas and Burmuda. The ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) are geographically considered to be part of South America, so they count as distant foreign ports. So, a cruise from Florida to California, via the Panama Canal must call at either the ABC's or Venezuela or Colombia.

[chengkp75]

There is another option. Keep the reservation and pay the $300pp fine. Or perhaps Royal Caribbean is planning on paying it on your behalf. I’d ask them.

 

 

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The cruise line is the entity that violates the PVSA, not the passenger, so the cruise line gets fined, and if found to have knowingly violated the Act, could face additional fines or sanctions. It is the ticket contract where the passenger gives the cruise line the right to pass the fine on to them.

[chengkp75]

I think what is at the root of the "NO" is the same ship would be transporting you between to US ports without the distant foreign port being satisfied. I have had a couple of electronic conversations with a lawyer who has tried to get something firm as to how long of a break would be needed between voyages before the same ship could be used to transport you between two US ports. As you might guess, there was no firm amount of time given. So with that logic you could leave Bayonne this season, arrive in Quebec and lease a house until next season. When the ship returned the following year and you tried to go from Quebec to FLL, it could be determined you were in violation of the PVSA. I know that is a stretch, but there does not appear to be a set amount of time between voyages.

 

One of the real tests of the PVSA is that the passenger must "permanently disembark". This wording was added back in the 80's to allow cruise ships to have more than the embark/disembark port be a US port, since under the older wording, even a 6 hour port call at a second US port would be considered to be "transportation between US ports". This means settling your bill, packing your luggage, and taking the luggage off the ship to "permanently disembark". I don't believe anyone at CBP would consider you to have "permanently disembarked" if you got back on the same day. However, if you had documentation of a night's stay at a hotel before getting back on (showing temporary residency), I believe this would fulfill the intent of the Act, without any definite time frame. As noted above, a poster was told this was still not acceptable, and this is most likely the cruise line not wanting to fight over it with CBP.

[Pellaz]

EDIT: I found clarification between "foreign" and "distant foreign" ports later in the thread. NOW it makes sense.

 

Perhaps you could offer support for your assertion.

 

Bimini Superfast does cruises from Miami to Bimini and back every day. If Bimini isn't defined as a "distant foreign port," how are they exempt from the PVSA? [Edit: it's a closed-loop cruise and only a "foreign" port is required.]

 

Similarly, some cruises travel from Florida ports to Nassau and CocoCay (or HMC) and back. If the Bahamas are excluded from being "distant, foreign ports," how do such cruises meet the requirements of the PVSA?

[Edit: see above]

Edited November 7, 2017 by Pellaz
they'd be "foreign" ports, but not "distant" foreign ports.

[wilmingtech]

Bimini Superfast does cruises from Miami to Bimini and back every day. If Bimini isn't defined as a "distant foreign port," how are they exempt from the PVPSA?

From what I am reading, I think if it's round trip it's fine to visit a foreign port (Alaska RT cruises, NYC cruises to FL, Bahamas and back). It's if it goes from one port to another in the US then it needs to visit a distant foreign port.

 

I'm assuming this is so non-US vessels can't compete with US vessels bringing passengers from port to port in the US. So you can't own a ship from the Bahamas and travel people from NYC to FL every week. Unless... You stop at the ABC islands first.

 

-Sean

 

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[crzndeb]

Bimini Superfast does cruises from Miami to Bimini and back every day. If Bimini isn't defined as a "distant foreign port," how are they exempt from the PVPSA?

 

Because they are doing a round trip. The PVSA refers to embarking in one US port and debarking in a different US port.

 

Thanks Chief for explaining. I have tried many times, but you are the expert.

 

In a nutshell, when the law was made, it protected the US from foreign vessels coming in and doing business between US ports and taking jobs and income away from Americans.

 

The airlines work the same way under different laws. Foreign carriers don’t fly domestically. They originate or end outside of the US.

[emeraldcity]

Hello! It's Mike and Rob from Trivia from the Norway Fjords cruise. What a strange law to have to deal with. What I find really odd is that Canada doesn't count as a foreign port! So if I understand, you can't start and stop in two different USA locations? Hope you are well. We have booked an 11 day southern Carib. on Norwegian in January from Tampa.

 

Oh, Wow! Hi guys. I had so much fun on that cruise.

 

It's the "distant" foreign port piece that is the issue. In any event, I have unintentionally touched off quite a discussion, but I'm learning a great deal as I read through the responses. Thank you to everyone who has posted.

 

The original plan was to do the Anthem cruise and spend some time in NYC doing some shows, but we found the 10-day trip had a stronger appeal. Of course, at that time, the price on the Anthem was considerably less than it is now. Frankly, I'm leaning toward the NCL out of Boston, but I'm only one of two decision makers and we haven't settled yet. If we go with NCL, Royal will have lost a sale they could have had. If they had informed me in April I couldn't book this, we'd have just moved back to the original plan. But having since done a couple of NCL cruises that turned out very well, we included that in the mix.

[new_cruiser]

Because they are doing a round trip. The PVSA refers to embarking in one US port and debarking in a different US port.

 

Thanks Chief for explaining. I have tried many times, but you are the expert.

 

In a nutshell, when the law was made, it protected the US from foreign vessels coming in and doing business between US ports and taking jobs and income away from Americans.

 

The airlines work the same way under different laws. Foreign carriers don’t fly domestically. They originate or end outside of the US.

You've almost got it. PVSA covers both round trips from a US port & one way between US ports, but the two have different requirements under it. Round trips just need any foreign port. One ways need a distant foreign port.

 

That's why there are round trip Alaska cruises out of Seattle with a stop in Canada, but one ways only go from or to Vancouver.

 

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[Pellaz]

Because they are doing a round trip. The PVSA refers to embarking in one US port and debarking in a different US port.

 

Thanks Chief for explaining. I have tried many times, but you are the expert.

 

This is kinda amazing, but I think I might have actually, finally learned the difference between "distant foreign" ports and their ne'er-do-well cousins, the merely "foreign" ports...as regards closed-loop cruises and the PVSA........ --Just from reading this thread.

 

I'm feeling pretty good now. First drinks are on me, y'all. :D

[crzndeb]

You've almost got it. PVSA covers both round trips from a US port & one way between US ports, but the two have different requirements under it. Round trips just need any foreign port. One ways need a distant foreign port.

 

That's why there are round trip Alaska cruises out of Seattle with a stop in Canada, but one ways only go from or to Vancouver.

 

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Yup, knew that. I just don’t say things in print very well...LOL I know it in my head.

[chrisby]

You can't knowingly violate the law and pay the $300 pp in order to circumvent the law.

 

Bill

 

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Sounds like a challenge to me [emoji23]

 

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[bob brown]

One of the real tests of the PVSA is that the passenger must "permanently disembark". This wording was added back in the 80's to allow cruise ships to have more than the embark/disembark port be a US port, since under the older wording, even a 6 hour port call at a second US port would be considered to be "transportation between US ports". This means settling your bill, packing your luggage, and taking the luggage off the ship to "permanently disembark". I don't believe anyone at CBP would consider you to have "permanently disembarked" if you got back on the same day. However, if you had documentation of a night's stay at a hotel before getting back on (showing temporary residency), I believe this would fulfill the intent of the Act, without any definite time frame. As noted above, a poster was told this was still not acceptable, and this is most likely the cruise line not wanting to fight over it with CBP.

So....If you sail from say New York to Quebec, and the ship stays there two nights (to allow both disembarking and embarking passenger's to spend the night on board while docked), and the ship then reposition's to Florida without visiting a distant foreign port.....you cannot do it, unless you spend a night at a hotel? Or two night's? Or not at all?

BUT....if you sail on a ship from New York to Quebec, and turn around the same day to a DIFFERENT ship also repositioning to Florida without a distant foreign port call, it is legal?:confused:

[BillB48]

So....

BUT....if you sail on a ship from New York to Quebec, and turn around the same day to a DIFFERENT ship also repositioning to Florida without a distant foreign port call, it is legal?:confused:

 

Yup, because it is not the same ship:D.

[chengkp75]

So....If you sail from say New York to Quebec, and the ship stays there two nights (to allow both disembarking and embarking passenger's to spend the night on board while docked), and the ship then reposition's to Florida without visiting a distant foreign port.....you cannot do it, unless you spend a night at a hotel? Or two night's? Or not at all?

BUT....if you sail on a ship from New York to Quebec, and turn around the same day to a DIFFERENT ship also repositioning to Florida without a distant foreign port call, it is legal?:confused:

 

Yup, because it is not the same ship:D.

 

Spot on, Bill. Yes, if you use two different ships, even with the same cruise line, neither ship is transporting you between different US ports, so it would be legal. As Bill noted, there is a gray area with regards to time required to be off the ship, but I believe that if you "permanently disembark" as I explained and spent one night ashore, you would be legal. Now that I think about the situation emeraldcity mentioned, the problem there is that the cruises are sold as finishing on one day and starting the next cruise on the same day, even though there would be an overnight. If the cruise line sold the second cruise two ways (1. starting the same day as the previous cruise disembarked, with an overnight, and 2. starting the day after the previous cruise ended) then if you booked the first cruise, and the second cruise under option 2, you would be legal. Because you are paying for accommodation on the ship for the first night of the second cruise, even if you stayed in a hotel, you are "on the ship".

[SRF]

Whoever wrote the law decided that Canada isn't a foreign port ... makes no sense ...

 

Then how do the New England/Canada cruises work?????

[chengkp75]

Because they are doing a round trip. The PVSA refers to embarking in one US port and debarking in a different US port.

 

Thanks Chief for explaining. I have tried many times, but you are the expert.

 

In a nutshell, when the law was made, it protected the US from foreign vessels coming in and doing business between US ports and taking jobs and income away from Americans.

 

The airlines work the same way under different laws. Foreign carriers don’t fly domestically. They originate or end outside of the US.

 

Despite what Wiki says about the PVSA, it was not enacted to protect US jobs. In the 1800's there were many fatalities caused by fires and explosions on the new steamboats plying US rivers and harbors. In response to these disasters, Congress enacted the Steamboat Act of 1832, which required all steamboats carrying passengers to be inspected by the Steamboat Inspection Service (the forerunner of today's USCG Marine Safety Division, that inspects the cruise ships) and to meet safety standards set by the Service. This Act was followed by the stronger Steamboat Act of 1852. In response to these Acts, the ship owners flagged their steamboats in foreign countries, removing them from the jurisdiction of the SIS. To counteract this, and to improve safety of passengers in coastwise traffic in the US, the PVSA was enacted, requiring that all coastwise passenger vessels be built in the US, flagged in the US, owned by US citizens, and crewed by US citizens. This allowed the SIS to inspect the ships during construction and operation to ensure the safety standards were met, allowed the SIS to ensure the crew were trained to their standards, and the owners could be held liable in US courts.

 

It is interesting to note that while here on CC both the Jones Act and the PVSA are cited as being enacted to protect US jobs, while the PVSA was enacted in 1882, the much larger and more economically important cargo trade was not "protected" until the Jones Act was passed in 1920. If the intent was to protect US jobs, the PVSA would have included cargo ships going coastwise as well, nearly 40 years earlier.

[chengkp75]

Then how do the New England/Canada cruises work?????

 

Again, if the cruise starts and ends in the same US port, it is only required to call at a foreign port, not a distant foreign port. Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean islands, Bahamas, and Bermuda are "foreign" ports, but not "distant foreign" ports, so any round trip cruise to them is legal. Also, some Canada/New England cruises start in the US and end in Canada, or vice versa, and any cruise beginning or ending in a foreign port does not fall under the PVSA.

[emeraldcity]

Spot on, Bill. Yes, if you use two different ships, even with the same cruise line, neither ship is transporting you between different US ports, so it would be legal. As Bill noted, there is a gray area with regards to time required to be off the ship, but I believe that if you "permanently disembark" as I explained and spent one night ashore, you would be legal. Now that I think about the situation emeraldcity mentioned, the problem there is that the cruises are sold as finishing on one day and starting the next cruise on the same day, even though there would be an overnight. If the cruise line sold the second cruise two ways (1. starting the same day as the previous cruise disembarked, with an overnight, and 2. starting the day after the previous cruise ended) then if you booked the first cruise, and the second cruise under option 2, you would be legal. Because you are paying for accommodation on the ship for the first night of the second cruise, even if you stayed in a hotel, you are "on the ship".

 

Actually that makes a lot of sense. It's a pity that Royal doesn't offer the cruise as two separate separate options ... one with a boarding day on the actual sail date to allow for folks to book both cruises, and find accommodations ashore on October 8th.

[J&Bcruisers]

Again, if the cruise starts and ends in the same US port, it is only required to call at a foreign port, not a distant foreign port. Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean islands, Bahamas, and Bermuda are "foreign" ports, but not "distant foreign" ports, so any round trip cruise to them is legal. Also, some Canada/New England cruises start in the US and end in Canada, or vice versa, and any cruise beginning or ending in a foreign port does not fall under the PVSA.

 

So my question is a B2B starting in Quebec to NYC first leg, and from NYC to Quebec 2nd leg, legal?