Questions - Safety Drill & Exit Doors

[roothy123]

Please refresh my memory:  on cruises that include an overnight in the embarkation port, is the safety drill likely to be done on the day after embarkation, maybe an hour or so before the ship departs?  I know it's up to the Captain and not a set in stone time for all cruises, but what is most likely?  I'm trying to plan my day in Rome.

 

Also, just out of curiosity, I've been amusing myself by watching the progress and dock locations of cruise ships on Marine Traffic.  Turning some of those megaships around in order to dock the way the captain wants to or must dock must be quite a feat.  I'm now wondering how many exit doors (for placement of a gangplank) most cruise ships have, or in particular, how many Viking has - on both sides.  Does anyone know?  Also, do crew members use the same doors as guests, or is there a separate door for them, as I've seen on another cruise line?

Edited October 23, 2018 by roothy123

[Parsley Cruises]

I'm interesting in finding out about the exit doors too.  I've tried looking really hard at photos and advertising material to try and work out where the doors are for embarkation/disembarkation (mostly so that I can plan my running routine on the prom deck).

 

I've sort of found out that the muster drill is usually held on the afternoon when the ship actually leaves port.

 

So, whereas on some ships the exist/entrance for disembarkation (this is on ships which are bigger than the VO ships) changes according to the port facilities and the tide, where are those points on VO, and is it always the same deck used, or does it change?

Thanks.

[RJ2002]

1 minute ago, Parsley Cruises said:

I've sort of found out that the muster drill is usually held on the afternoon when the ship actually leaves port.

 

 

 

This has been our experience as well...  muster drill held shortly before sailing.

[Parsley Cruises]

2 minutes ago, RJ2002 said:

 

This has been our experience as well...  muster drill held shortly before sailing. 

 

It makes good sense.  Do passengers have to take their life jackets with them to muster?  (Hope not).

 

Having said that, we really respect the muster drill, and we always attend and pay attention quietly.

 

 

[MarkTapley]

On our recent cruise, Viking used doors on Deck A, 1 and 2 for the gangway, on both port and starboard sides (aft end of ship).  Door chosen depended on the port set up (and I suppose water/tide level). Crew uses the same door as guests.

 

Life jackets are kept near the lifeboats, not in the guest rooms, so guests do not take them to the muster drill.

[Capt_BJ]

on our SKY trip in July we boarded on the 7th with overnight in Greenwich and departed late  evening of the 8th

the emergency drill was held at 5:15 PM on the 7th ... the first night ... before dinner

 

so ... it depends!

 

(I'm looking at my daily's)

 

our morning departure from the ship was usually as part of one of the 'included' excursions and these usually met in the theater ... then you walk en group to the gangway, typically adjacent to the aft elevators

Edited October 23, 2018 by Capt_BJ

[Heidi13]

10 hours ago, roothy123 said:

Please refresh my memory:  on cruises that include an overnight in the embarkation port, is the safety drill likely to be done on the day after embarkation, maybe an hour or so before the ship departs?  I know it's up to the Captain and not a set in stone time for all cruises, but what is most likely?  I'm trying to plan my day in Rome.

 

Also, just out of curiosity, I've been amusing myself by watching the progress and dock locations of cruise ships on Marine Traffic.  Turning some of those megaships around in order to dock the way the captain wants to or must dock must be quite a feat.  I'm now wondering how many exit doors (for placement of a gangplank) most cruise ships have, or in particular, how many Viking has - on both sides.  Does anyone know?  Also, do crew members use the same doors as guests, or is there a separate door for them, as I've seen on another cruise line?

Wow, lots of questions, which I'll try to answer.

 

Emergency Drill - unfortunately, I doubt you will find consistency in the scheduling of the drill, when the cruise commences with an overnight in port. Personally, for safety reasons, I would schedule the drill on the first day, so all pax know their Assembly Station before retiring for the evening.

 

Ship Handling - handling large passenger vessels, most of the time, is no different than parking a larger car/truck. In the old days with single prop, single rudder and no thrusters, you had to understand the theory. However, the newer ships are loaded with technology and horsepower. With high decks and low drafts, the biggest challenge is wind and potential equipment/mechanical failures. The fully integrated navigation systems in the Bridge provide real time situation updates to confirm what the Captain sees out the windows. Biggest challenge is wind - my last ship we had sufficient HP to handle 31 - 32 kt winds, but we routinely experienced 45+ kts and I have docked in over 60 kts. Those days are a little stressful for the Captain.

 

Exit Doors - the doors in the hull below the Promenade Deck, were normally called Shell Doors. While I don't know about Viking, most ships have 2 or 3 Shell Doors, on each side and on each deck above the waterline.

 

Gangway allocation varies by port, but in the greatest majority of time I worked on the ships or have cruised as a pax, officers, crew and pax shared all the available gangways. In Vancouver, a couple of times I have seen 1 gangway for pax embarkation and the other for crew and contractors.

 

[MarkTapley]

Shell doors.  I learned a new term today.  I thought of these doors as the “no tug” doors because of the stencils.  Besides the ones used for embarkation and disembarkation, we saw supplies loaded thru one and trash taken off thru another.  Lots of activity at some ports.

[Chickadee910]

Westerdam april 28 yokohama to Vancouver. We will be landing at approximately 2:30 on embarking day and heading to the ship with Holland transportation to the ship what if we for some reason are not there for muster drill?

[roothy123]

16 minutes ago, Chickadee910 said:

Westerdam april 28 yokohama to Vancouver. We will be landing at approximately 2:30 on embarking day and heading to the ship with Holland transportation to the ship what if we for some reason are not there for muster drill?

That's really a question for the Holland America board, since I don't know what Holland does for their muster drill.  It used to be that cruise lines had 24 hours to do the drill (I think), but now it's required a lot sooner.  My guess is that if Holland is providing the transportation, unless something really delays you, you'll get there before the drill is scheduled to start.  If not, Holland will very likely delay the drill (if many of their buses are still enroute to the ship), have a makeup drill, or do something else to familiarize you with what you need to know.  No matter the cruise line, a drill is required for everyone if they haven't had one within a certain amount of days.   

Edited October 24, 2018 by roothy123

[roothy123]

I was looking today at Viking FAQ's because it's time for booking excursions and I wanted to see their policy.  It's spelled out pretty well in the FAQ, but the chat function popped up, one thing led to another, and I decided to ask about the drill, expecting them to simply say that the timing varies.  However, I was surprised to hear that most drills are scheduled for after dinner on the night of embarkation.  I'm sure some people will be unhappy about that, but it really does make sense when I think about it, and since Viking's are done pretty efficiently, it's OK in my book.  If people are late getting to the ship due to air or traffic delays, too much sightseeing etc., they're likely to be onboard for dinner.  For itineraries with overnights, that timing also allows more time for excursions the next day.  In our case that's good, since the port for Rome is at least an hour away. 

 

Heidi, thanks for the answer to the door question, and some very interesting information.  And yes, I've seen those "shell doors" with the "No Tug" stenciling, but never really paid all that much attention to the actual place where we got off the ship. 

 

After watching a Smithsonian Channel program (Mighty Ships - MSC's new, big Meraviglia ship) I'm now wondering if Viking has azopods.   Do most ships built in the last few years have them?

 

 

[Chickadee910]

Thank you

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, roothy123 said:

That's really a question for the Holland America board, since I don't know what Holland does for their muster drill.  It used to be that cruise lines had 24 hours to do the drill (I think), but now it's required a lot sooner.  My guess is that if Holland is providing the transportation, unless something really delays you, you'll get there before the drill is scheduled to start.  If not, Holland will very likely delay the drill (if many of their buses are still enroute to the ship), have a makeup drill, or do something else to familiarize you with what you need to know.  No matter the cruise line, a drill is required for everyone if they haven't had one within a certain amount of days.   

Great answer.

 

Yes, SOLAS and Fire & Boat Drill Regs used to require a muster drill within 24 hrs of departure. The Costa Concordia, which sailed a rotating 7-day schedule with every port being embarkation/disembarkation, was the reason for the changes. As a pax you could board at any port and stay for 7 days. Rather than having a muster drill daily they exploited the loophole and scheduled them every 2-days. Unfortunately, no drill was carried out prior to the grounding.

 

Since that incident, SOLAS changed to require a Muster Drill prior to departure. When pax are late boarding I have seen the drill delayed (lots of late arrivals) or if only a few, they get a personal drill without the bells & whistles.

 

On our last World Cruise, we attended a Muster Drill every month, while aboard. I retired almost 6 years ago, so have not monitored changes to SOLAS, so am not sure what the actual regs now state.

[Jim Avery]

This past Spring on Viking Sun we had monthly drills as well as the one prior to departure in LA so it sounds like similar to what you remember. 

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, roothy123 said:

After watching a Smithsonian Channel program (Mighty Ships - MSC's new, big Meraviglia ship) I'm now wondering if Viking has azopods.   Do most ships built in the last few years have them?

 

 

Don't actually track which ships have them, but it used to be that certain companies favoured them over more conventional high lift rudders. The early variants experienced a few teething problems, but I had heard of few azipod issues since I retired.

 

While I have never operated with Azipods, I have used older right angled drive systems, where the prop rotates through 360 degrees, but were mechanically powered, rather than electric motors. Yes, the are very manouevreable, but my ships also had them on the bow, so we had infinite control.

 

The more conventional CP props and high lift rudders probably provide almost as much control as Azipods. My last ship had 20 year old high lift rudders, which had a trailing flap. With the helm hard over, they operated as a thruster, as the wash was at 90 degrees. Going astern is where Azipods probably have an advantage.

 

 

[Heidi13]

11 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

This past Spring on Viking Sun we had monthly drills as well as the one prior to departure in LA so it sounds like similar to what you remember. 

Thanks Jim

[Capt_BJ]

However, I was surprised to hear that most drills are scheduled for after dinner on the night of embarkation.

 

I sincerely doubt this answer is correct (and it ain't unusual for the telephone folks to answer with a WAG btw).  After dinner would mean after 10pm AT LEAST ... by this time many would be asleep because of travel issues.  NO WAY, and certainly not what I've ever experienced

 

************

editorial comment:

 

many references have been made to SOLAS and REQUIREMENTS ....

 

SOLAS (Safety Of Life At Sea) is a set of RECOMMENDATIONS produced via IMO (International Maritime Organization) ... in broad terms an entity of the UN

 

SOLAS is not a law and IMO has NO authority to enforce anything

 

a COUNTRY decides what the rules/regulations/laws will be for vessels sailing under their flag and/or sailing in their waters (to a certain degree)

 

In the US, the majority of the SOLAS recommendations have been written into the US Code of Regulations and are enforced by the USCG - within limits of jurisdiction. For passenger vessels that are not US flagged but call at US ports, how these rules are 'enforced' is by requiring compliance with US Regulations in order to board passengers in a US port. That is: USCG may not be able to force compliance on the safety issue if the vessel is not US flagged and subject to our laws BUT CAN deny loading cargo or passengers .....

 

technical point but what I'm saying is the rules in the US are not the same as the rules outside the US .......

 

SOLAS RECOMMENDS certain parameters for safety drills ..... how the drills are conducted may be up to the ship or the place where the ship is IF the place decides to get involved . . .  

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, Capt_BJ said:

However, I was surprised to hear that most drills are scheduled for after dinner on the night of embarkation.

 

I sincerely doubt this answer is correct (and it ain't unusual for the telephone folks to answer with a WAG btw).  After dinner would mean after 10pm AT LEAST ... by this time many would be asleep because of travel issues.  NO WAY, and certainly not what I've ever experienced

 

************

editorial comment:

 

many references have been made to SOLAS and REQUIREMENTS ....

 

SOLAS (Safety Of Life At Sea) is a set of RECOMMENDATIONS produced via IMO (International Maritime Organization) ... in broad terms an entity of the UN

SOLAS is an international treaty to which the 171 member nations of the IMO can become signatory (currently 162 IMO member nations are signatory).

 

SOLAS is not a law and IMO has NO authority to enforce anything

Correct

 

a COUNTRY decides what the rules/regulations/laws will be for vessels sailing under their flag and/or sailing in their waters (to a certain degree)

If a nation is signatory to SOLAS, it is required to enforce the SOLAS requirements as a minimum, but may enact and enforce more, not less, stringent regulations on ships flying their own flag.

 

In the US, the majority of the SOLAS recommendations have been written into the US Code of Regulations and are enforced by the USCG - within limits of jurisdiction. For passenger vessels that are not US flagged but call at US ports, how these rules are 'enforced' is by requiring compliance with US Regulations in order to board passengers in a US port. That is: USCG may not be able to force compliance on the safety issue if the vessel is not US flagged and subject to our laws BUT CAN deny loading cargo or passengers .....

By becoming signatory to the SOLAS treaty, all of the SOLAS requirements are written into US law as "enabling legislation".  The USCG, as part of Port State Control, can enforce all SOLAS requirements on every foreign flag vessel, while it is in US ports or territorial waters.  USCG has written, and enforces, more stringent regulations on US flag vessels than they can enforce on foreign flag vessels.

 

technical point but what I'm saying is the rules in the US are not the same as the rules outside the US .......

Correct, to a degree.  For a foreign flag vessel, the "rules" are the same wherever the ship is being inspected, but the "interpretation" of the rules may vary between port states or even between inspectors of the same port state.

 

SOLAS RECOMMENDS certain parameters for safety drills ..... how the drills are conducted may be up to the ship or the place where the ship is IF the place decides to get involved . . .  

SOLAS states general guidelines for what is to be included in safety drills, and when and how often they are to be held, but the specifics of the drill, as long as it is within the framework of SOLAS, is left to the shipping company to determine, and is also required to be in accordance with another international treaty, ISM, which the US is also signatory to, and which has been made into US law.

 

Not trying to start an argument here, Capt, just voicing my experience and understanding of the law.

[Jim Avery]

As to the question about Azipods, Viking ships do not have them.  They have conventional shaft/propeller/rudder in a twin configuration with bow thrusters.  Had a nice conversation with Captain Knutsen about the pros and cons of both.  The Viking ship model in the Atrium shows the bottom gear in detail.

[chengkp75]

15 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

As to the question about Azipods, Viking ships do not have them.  They have conventional shaft/propeller/rudder in a twin configuration with bow thrusters.  Had a nice conversation with Captain Knutsen about the pros and cons of both.  The Viking ship model in the Atrium shows the bottom gear in detail.

Jim;

So they've gone without stern thrusters?

 

The clear water flow into the propeller of an azipod (since it is a leading rather than trailing propeller) gives them about an 8-10% efficiency boost, though shafted propellers have other means they can attain efficiencies near an azipod.  The major advantage of the azipod is that capital expense is reduced.  Rather than two propulsion motors, two shafts and bearings, stern tubes and seals, two rudders, four steering motors, and 2-3 stern thrusters, you only need two azipods.

 

The disadvantage of azipods is that a propeller and rudder ship can operate with one steering motor out of operation, and in fact in many places with one steering motor on each rudder out of operation, with no limitations on port entry, since there is still redundancy in steering.  Take one azipod out of operation, and you have lost redundancy in both steering and propulsion, and many places, like the US, will then require tug escorts when entering or leaving port, in case of further failure.

[Jim Avery]

Hi Chief.  According to the Captain, no stern thrusters.  I am not personally a fan of pods.  If they were the best of the best wouldn't the Navy have them on ships?  But then a real main purpose of pod development for cruise ships was the freeing up of valuable interior real estate suitable for revenue enhancement.  You are right on about the advantage of docking without tugs.  It must cost a bunch to have 3 or 4 tugs assisting.  I remember as a child on Queen Mary loving the small fleet of Moran tugs assisting docking in NYC.  A ship with 4 propellers but no thrusters.  Not to mention the delay in changing direction/speed on the propellers.  Ah, the good old days of docking single screw, single rudder ships without tugs.....😎

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

Hi Chief.  According to the Captain, no stern thrusters.  I am not personally a fan of pods.  If they were the best of the best wouldn't the Navy have them on ships?  But then a real main purpose of pod development for cruise ships was the freeing up of valuable interior real estate suitable for revenue enhancement.  You are right on about the advantage of docking without tugs.  It must cost a bunch to have 3 or 4 tugs assisting.  I remember as a child on Queen Mary loving the small fleet of Moran tugs assisting docking in NYC.  A ship with 4 propellers but no thrusters.  Not to mention the delay in changing direction/speed on the propellers.  Ah, the good old days of docking single screw, single rudder ships without tugs.....😎

Jim - In the good old days, before bow thrusters, we had the Captain's best friend - anchors. They saved me a few times.

 

On my last ship we also had no stern thrusters, only 2 bow thrusters. With the Becker Rudders, I have actually experienced a stern thrust with both CP's ahead and rudders hard over. 

[Jim Avery]

2 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Jim - In the good old days, before bow thrusters, we had the Captain's best friend - anchors. They saved me a few times.

 

On my last ship we also had no stern thrusters, only 2 bow thrusters. With the Becker Rudders, I have actually experienced a stern thrust with both CP's ahead and rudders hard over. 

Haha, you reminded me of trying to explain to a docker how I managed to dock the ship with the anchor dragging. He thought the windlass had broken and dropped the anchor..... I don't think I ever got the concept across.

[Heidi13]

35 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

Haha, you reminded me of trying to explain to a docker how I managed to dock the ship with the anchor dragging. He thought the windlass had broken and dropped the anchor..... I don't think I ever got the concept across.

Jim,

 

Did the same many times, when docking in 45 kt + beam winds. Dragged the anchor, which acted like an extra thruster and made the controlled crash (docking) a little more controlled.

[jamscckmc]

Slightly off topic but does Viking do their muster drill inside or out?