What is going on with Viking ships?

[OceanPatter]

Not just the Viking Sky, but now the Viking Sigyn (river boat that launched in April), that crashed into the tour boat on the Danube, causing fatalities. Here's a Forbes article, citing the problems this year. Not sure if this points to systemic problems that need to be addressed by Viking.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/05/30/billionaire-owned-viking-cruises-involved-in-fatal-collision-that-kills-at-least-7/#35e49aae4d3c

 

[CCWineLover]

4 hours ago, OceanPatter said:

Not just the Viking Sky, but now the Viking Sigyn (river boat that launched in April), that crashed into the tour boat on the Danube, causing fatalities. Here's a Forbes article, citing the problems this year. Not sure if this points to systemic problems that need to be addressed by Viking.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurendebter/2019/05/30/billionaire-owned-viking-cruises-involved-in-fatal-collision-that-kills-at-least-7/#35e49aae4d3c

 

 

Hmmm - "the Viking boat crashed into the tour boat"......

Everything I have read about the incident says that they were moving along paralell together when suddenly the tour boat inexplicably turned right into the path of the Viking boat.   So wouldn't it be the tour boat crashed into the Viking boat?

" A Hungarian police officer involved in the initial investigation explains that “Both ships were heading north … and when they arrived between two pillars of the Margit Bridge, for some reason the Hableany turned in front of the Viking ship. As the Viking comes into contact with it, it overturns it and in about seven seconds, as it turned on its side, it sank.”

[Parsley Cruises]

There are only 2 issues concerning Viking which I have heard about - one was the incident in the North Sea which was exacerbated due to bad weather conditions.  That weather was down to mother nature; I feel sure that Viking would have got the ship safely (if slowly) back to port to get engine repairs done.  If passengers are going to book a cruise in an area of the ocean which isn't exactly renowned for calm waters during winter, then they shouldn't really complain about rough seas etc.

 

The second issue I've heard of is this crash with the tour boat on a river - and I feel sure that the fault doesn't lie with the Viking river boat.  Simply, the tour boat should have been more easily manoeuvrable than the Viking boat, and the tour boat should not have gone across the path of the Viking boat.  If the tour boat felt the need to move closer to the shore, and thus a need to cross the path being followed by the Viking boat, it should have waited a couple of seconds and then moved across behind the Viking boat.

 

Oh well, whatever …….

[Jim Avery]

Hey Parsley, at least the Venice crash is not Viking.....😳🍸

[Peregrina651]

another thread built on idle speculation. just more grist for the rumor mill.

[gilboman]

poor corporate oversight and lax standards especially with regards to personnel 

[gilboman]

7 hours ago, Parsley Cruises said:

There are only 2 issues concerning Viking which I have heard about - one was the incident in the North Sea which was exacerbated due to bad weather conditions.  That weather was down to mother nature; I feel sure that Viking would have got the ship safely (if slowly) back to port to get engine repairs done.  If passengers are going to book a cruise in an area of the ocean which isn't exactly renowned for calm waters during winter, then they shouldn't really complain about rough seas etc.

 

The second issue I've heard of is this crash with the tour boat on a river - and I feel sure that the fault doesn't lie with the Viking river boat.  Simply, the tour boat should have been more easily manoeuvrable than the Viking boat, and the tour boat should not have gone across the path of the Viking boat.  If the tour boat felt the need to move closer to the shore, and thus a need to cross the path being followed by the Viking boat, it should have waited a couple of seconds and then moved across behind the Viking boat.

 

Oh well, whatever …….

WRONG - Viking Riverboat captain charged because he was performing reckless unsafe overtaking maneuver while blind to river traffic before ramming into other boat 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/hungary-arrest-hearing-held-for-captain-in-deadly-collision/2019/06/01/8075cfc2-845d-11e9-b585-e36b16a531aa_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.829ae993cd3a

[Heidi13]

I certainly wouldn't be quick to make judgements based on reports received from media sources. As in all marine incidents, I suspect very little information is known regarding agreements made prior to the incident. This will be determined by the official investigation.

 

The information from my marine journals - the Captain was taken into custody for questioning, but the court has approved his release, subject to tracking that ensure he does not leave the city. His release on bail is being challenged by prosecutors.

 

Making such a detailed statement of the incident, without being privy to the incident facts, in my opinion is counter-productive and borders on being libelous.

 

After the incident in Norway, we has sufficient ill-informed speculation from arm chair experts, we certainly don't need more of it with this incident. As a professional mariner, I have an opinion, based on what I saw from many films of the incident, but that is scanty information and I am not prepared to share it on a public forum.

 

[CCWineLover]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

I certainly wouldn't be quick to make judgements based on reports received from media sources. As in all marine incidents, I suspect very little information is known regarding agreements made prior to the incident. This will be determined by the official investigation.

 

The information from my marine journals - the Captain was taken into custody for questioning, but the court has approved his release, subject to tracking that ensure he does not leave the city. His release on bail is being challenged by prosecutors.

 

Making such a detailed statement of the incident, without being privy to the incident facts, in my opinion is counter-productive and borders on being libelous.

 

After the incident in Norway, we has sufficient ill-informed speculation from arm chair experts, we certainly don't need more of it with this incident. As a professional mariner, I have an opinion, based on what I saw from many films of the incident, but that is scanty information and I am not prepared to share it on a public forum.

 

Well stated, Heidi13.  Always appreciate your wisdom, experience, and informative posts.

[Jim Avery]

1 hour ago, CCWineLover said:

Well stated, Heidi13.  Always appreciate your wisdom, experience, and informative posts.

And he knows a lot about beers too....🍺😎

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

And he knows a lot about beers too....🍺😎

Beer !!! I know nothing about it, but you may hear rumours I partake in the odd tipple. 🍺🍺

[Parsley Cruises]

18 hours ago, Jim Avery said:

Hey Parsley, at least the Venice crash is not Viking.....😳🍸

How right you are!  Footage I've seen shows clearly that the Opera was using tugs, and that the tow line connect the forward tug was NOT is use (ie broken or disconnected).  I suspect that as this line was non-operational, and as the ship was moving forward, that this was a big contributory factor.

[Parsley Cruises]

18 hours ago, gilboman said:

WRONG - Viking Riverboat captain charged because he was performing reckless unsafe overtaking maneuver while blind to river traffic before ramming into other boat 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/hungary-arrest-hearing-held-for-captain-in-deadly-collision/2019/06/01/8075cfc2-845d-11e9-b585-e36b16a531aa_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.829ae993cd3a

I most certainly did not want this discussion to become a war of words, but I would have thought that common sense alone would have meant that the smaller boat should have given way to the bigger boat, as the smaller boat would have had less power than the Viking boat, and therefore might not have had sufficient ability to outpace the Viking boat, and having either or both less speed and less power would have been more able to avoid a collision.  It's all a shame anyway, and I wish it hadn't happened. 

 

 

[kerryincork]

I live in the harbour area of a very busy port and river. The larger ship always had the right of way over smaller vessels. This is purely down to momentum. The larger the vessel the slower it can react, it certainly can't stop like a car. Even if it moving relatively slowly.

 

Rivers have rules the same as roads in regards to manoeuvring, overtakeing, the side of the river the boat is on depending on direction of traffic.

 

It's not a free for all.

[Jim Avery]

5 hours ago, Parsley Cruises said:

How right you are!  Footage I've seen shows clearly that the Opera was using tugs, and that the tow line connect the forward tug was NOT is use (ie broken or disconnected).  I suspect that as this line was non-operational, and as the ship was moving forward, that this was a big contributory factor.

And they had an anchor down as well.  Trying their best to stop.  Again, we shall not know anything of real importance until the inquiry report.

[chengkp75]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:35 AM, Parsley Cruises said:

How right you are!  Footage I've seen shows clearly that the Opera was using tugs, and that the tow line connect the forward tug was NOT is use (ie broken or disconnected).  I suspect that as this line was non-operational, and as the ship was moving forward, that this was a big contributory factor.

I don't want to hijack this thread to the MSC Opera incident, but anyone who thinks a tug boat can stop a cruise ship is sadly misinformed.  The Opera weighs (displacement, not gross tonnage which is not weight) about 20-25,000 tons, and the most powerful tugs in the world can only generate 450 metric tons of pull, so even with two of the most powerful tugs, they would only have generated 900 tons of force to counteract 20-25,000 tons of momentum.

[chengkp75]

On 6/4/2019 at 9:11 AM, kerryincork said:

I live in the harbour area of a very busy port and river. The larger ship always had the right of way over smaller vessels. This is purely down to momentum. The larger the vessel the slower it can react, it certainly can't stop like a car. Even if it moving relatively slowly.

 

Rivers have rules the same as roads in regards to manoeuvring, overtakeing, the side of the river the boat is on depending on direction of traffic.

 

It's not a free for all.

While this is stated humorously by mariners as the "Rule of Gross Tonnage", that is not a true "rule of the road", and rules vary with locale.  In fact, in most circumstances, a small sailing yacht has the right of way over the largest container ship in the world.  (I won't get into the various exceptions)  Inland rules are different from deep sea rules, and EU inland rules are different from US inland rules.  For instance, in the US, inland rules say that the overtaking vessel has the right of way, and the overtaken vessel must maintain its course and speed during overtaking.  EU rules are somewhat different, and do not necessarily restrict the overtaken vessel from making course and heading changes, and places the burden on the overtaking vessel to only overtake when "it is safe to do so".  So, as Andy says, wait and see who is at fault, and why.

[Parsley Cruises]

23 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I don't want to hijack this thread to the MSC Opera incident, but anyone who thinks a tug boat can stop a cruise ship is sadly misinformed.  The Opera weighs (displacement, not gross tonnage which is not weight) about 20-25,000 tons, and the most powerful tugs in the world can only generate 450 metric tons of pull, so even with two of the most powerful tugs, they would only have generated 900 tons of force to counteract 20-25,000 tons of momentum.

Whilst I don't support the hijacking of threads, I have to say you have sorely missed the point.  A tug which is forward of the ship is hardly going to be able to stop it, is it?  My point was - and still is - that the tug which was forward of the ship had it's tow line not in operation, and thus was unable to assist in 'steering' the ship away from the quayside.

 

I don't know if there was any other shipping in the close vicinity at the time, and I don't wish to know either - having seen the effects of locals behaving badly on the water in this area.  At the end of the day the Opera was under the care and control of a pilot, surely?

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, Parsley Cruises said:

Whilst I don't support the hijacking of threads, I have to say you have sorely missed the point.  A tug which is forward of the ship is hardly going to be able to stop it, is it?  My point was - and still is - that the tug which was forward of the ship had it's tow line not in operation, and thus was unable to assist in 'steering' the ship away from the quayside.

 

I don't know if there was any other shipping in the close vicinity at the time, and I don't wish to know either - having seen the effects of locals behaving badly on the water in this area.  At the end of the day the Opera was under the care and control of a pilot, surely?

Very often a tug will be in assist to a ship without a line to the ship.  It all depends on the planned or anticipated moves of the ship and the capabilities of the tug.  However, if the tug line was broken due to overstrain, I fail to see how that is a contributory "cause" of the incident, but more of a result of the incident.

[Heidi13]

9 hours ago, Parsley Cruises said:

Whilst I don't support the hijacking of threads, I have to say you have sorely missed the point.  A tug which is forward of the ship is hardly going to be able to stop it, is it?  My point was - and still is - that the tug which was forward of the ship had it's tow line not in operation, and thus was unable to assist in 'steering' the ship away from the quayside.

 

I don't know if there was any other shipping in the close vicinity at the time, and I don't wish to know either - having seen the effects of locals behaving badly on the water in this area.  At the end of the day the Opera was under the care and control of a pilot, surely?

Sorry, but the Chief is totally correct and I also note that on the film I watched the fwd tug is secured by a line to the port bow. I was unable to determine if they used a ship's line or tug line.

 

I also read, similar to the Jupiter incident in Piraeus, the tug line parted. While I have never operated a tug, I am well aware it takes substantial skill to not part the line, but also have some affect in the vessel being controlled that is both moving at a reasonable speed and is substantially larger than the tug.

 

To prevent parting the line, the tug Master must apply power gradually, but as the Chief explained you must consider the vector diagram of the forces at play. The tug Master must also be cognisant of not girding and capsising his vessel.

 

Yes, the cruise ships pick up pilots before entering the breakwaters. However, while the pilot may have had the conduct, the Master remains in command & control.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by Heidi13

[Parsley Cruises]

16 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Sorry, but the Chief is totally correct and I also note that on the film I watched the fwd tug is secured by a line to the port bow. I was unable to determine if they used a ship's line or tug line.

 

I also read, similar to the Jupiter incident in Piraeus, the tug line parted. While I have never operated a tug, I am well aware it takes substantial skill to not part the line, but also have some affect in the vessel being controlled that is both moving at a reasonable speed and is substantially larger than the tug.

 

To prevent parting the line, the tug Master must apply power gradually, but as the Chief explained you must consider the vector diagram of the forces at play. The tug Master must also be cognisant of not girding and capsising his vessel.

 

Yes, the cruise ships pick up pilots before entering the breakwaters. However, while the pilot may have had the conduct, the Master remains in command & control.

 

 

Sorry, but I am going to steadfastly hold my current opinion.  All I have seen about this incident is one photo, since I have absolutely no interest in the cruise line in question. None of us (to be the best of my knowledge) are in possession of the 'evidence' which obviously the Venetian authorities should now be dealing with.  I do have a particular theory - and I am not going to publish it here.

[loge23]

On 6/3/2019 at 2:27 AM, Parsley Cruises said:

There are only 2 issues concerning Viking which I have heard about - one was the incident in the North Sea which was exacerbated due to bad weather conditions.  That weather was down to mother nature; I feel sure that Viking would have got the ship safely (if slowly) back to port to get engine repairs done.  If passengers are going to book a cruise in an area of the ocean which isn't exactly renowned for calm waters during winter, then they shouldn't really complain about rough seas etc.

 

The second issue I've heard of is this crash with the tour boat on a river - and I feel sure that the fault doesn't lie with the Viking river boat.  Simply, the tour boat should have been more easily manoeuvrable than the Viking boat, and the tour boat should not have gone across the path of the Viking boat.  If the tour boat felt the need to move closer to the shore, and thus a need to cross the path being followed by the Viking boat, it should have waited a couple of seconds and then moved across behind the Viking boat.

 

Oh well, whatever …….

Not to pile on, but let's not forget the Freya incident in 2016 where two crewmen were killed when the retractable bridge hit a bridge in Germany. 

[philw1776]

6 hours ago, loge23 said:

Not to pile on, but let's not forget the Freya incident in 2016 where two crewmen were killed when the retractable bridge hit a bridge in Germany. 

September 2014 Viking Freya Romantic Danube, the Freya wheelhouse was all plywood.  When I asked, they told me that it had failed to retract when approaching a bridge.

[Parsley Cruises]

As I understand it, that is a boat, not a ship,  I thought that this thread was regarding ships.

 

Anyway, as everyday life is a risk, and as we are all at risk from the moment we're born, shall we 'give it a rest'?  Please?

[Peregrina651]

5 hours ago, Parsley Cruises said:

 shall we 'give it a rest'?  Please?

 

Well that's not going to happen. People love to talk about the tragedies of others and love to assign blame even if they are not fully in possession of the facts. It is like politics; the conversation will never end and no one will ever hear your side of the discussion. The only thing you can do is to walk away.