No Sail Order extended - 100 days

[pumpkin 11]

6 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

I just can't believe people would be that reluctant to get a vaccine for a virus that kills so virulently, and makes so many deathly sick even if they do survive!  I know those are the numbers but it amazes me.  Some say they are worried about its safety due to the rapid development.  Not only do the scientists deny that should be a concern, but speaking for myself I would rather risk that than risk getting the virus.  Then there are a percentage who think the virus is not that serious.  Say what?!?!?  On what planet do these morons live???  And then there are those who think they could catch the virus from the vaccination.  OMG will people ever wise up about that?  I wouldn't want those people sailing with me anyway!

The virus is real, the statistics are not. 

[yorky]

38 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

Yet there's never been any other virus that shuts down cruising in the past.

 

That alone nullifies your argument above.

We will see but at the end of the day it’s up to others to make that decision. Should a vaccine shot not be mandatory  ( I suspect it won’t) then each individual needs to make a personal decision on whether they choose to cruise or not. Personally it won’t put us off but others may well choose to no longer cruise.

[UnorigionalName]

1 hour ago, pumpkin 11 said:

The virus is real, the statistics are not. 

 

[pumpkin 11]

50 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Why stop at April 11th? Everyone knows Covid deaths are being reported at a far higher number than there are actual Covid deaths. Dr. Burkes said it was about 25% over representation and that's what they're telling us. Probably closer to 40% or 50%. 

 

Italy said 99% of the people who died had other comorbidities. The virus is real, the statistics and the models never we're.

Edited May 29, 2020 by pumpkin 11

[UnorigionalName]

Just now, pumpkin 11 said:

Why stop at April 11th? Everyone knows Covid deaths are being reported at a far higher number than there are actual deaths. Dr. Burkes said it was about 25% over representation and that's what they're telling us. Probably closer to 40% or 50%.

 

excess death data comes in slower.

[pumpkin 11]

1 minute ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

excess death data comes in slower.

We'll we can't eliminate the virus just like we can't eliminate risk of driving or walking during a thunder storm ect. I'm fine with masks and preventative measures but at some point we need to return to normalcy because this is all based on false data and predictions that never came true.

[K.T.B.]

4 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

We'll we can't eliminate the virus just like we can't eliminate risk of driving or walking during a thunder storm ect. I'm fine with masks and preventative measures but at some point we need to return to normalcy because this is all based on false data and predictions that never came true.

 

It's not false data, it's just data that keeps changing and (so far) is incomplete.  The more that is learned, the better the data,  

[pumpkin 11]

2 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

It's not false data, it's just data that keeps changing and (so far) is incomplete.  The more that is learned, the better the data,  

Well you can call it whatever you want. But it didn't come true. I usually don't care but this is public policy that put 40 million americans out of work and countless damages we have done to our schools hospitals and other institutions 

Edited May 29, 2020 by pumpkin 11

[yorky]

34 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Well you can call it whatever you want. But it didn't come true. I usually don't care but this is public policy that put 40 million americans out of work and countless damages we have done to our schools hospitals and other institutions 

I have no idea if one figure or another is true. I can only speak for my wife’s family. Her mother has died and both her brother and sister were hospitalised, her brother was a day or so away from death, they asked him permission to put him in a coma if needed and did he wish to be resuscitated. He was on morphine and using a c pap.  We have put back mums funeral twice so brother and sister can attend and brother may still need to be pushed in a wheelchair. Both in their 50s.I guess when some people state it’s all a bit of a con they tend to be the ones not badly effected. Personally as a couple we are not risk averse but having seen this first hand it’s one hell of a frightening experience.

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 hour ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Why stop at April 11th? Everyone knows Covid deaths are being reported at a far higher number than there are actual Covid deaths. Dr. Burkes said it was about 25% over representation and that's what they're telling us. Probably closer to 40% or 50%. 

 

Italy said 99% of the people who died had other comorbidities. The virus is real, the statistics and the models never we're.

Underlying conditions are certainly present in most - at least 90% - of people dying after being infected with COVID.  You can make statistics say almost anything.  It sure seems that COVID is both different - not going away with hot weather - and deadly.

Very elderly friends got sick and tested.  Tests came back positive.  They stayed home and both passed.  Death certificate stated heart failure.

[pumpkin 11]

32 minutes ago, yorky said:

I have no idea if one figure or another is true. I can only speak for my wife’s family. Her mother has died and both her brother and sister were hospitalised, her brother was a day or so away from death, they asked him permission to put him in a coma if needed and did he wish to be resuscitated. He was on morphine and using a c pap.  We have put back mums funeral twice so brother and sister can attend and brother may still need to be pushed in a wheelchair. Both in their 50s.I guess when some people state it’s all a bit of a con they tend to be the ones not badly effected. Personally as a couple we are not risk averse but having seen this first hand it’s one hell of a frightening experience.

That's a sad story. But anecdotal examples don't make good law.

[yorky]

7 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

That's a sad story. But anecdotal examples don't make good law.

No, it’s just “ a sad story”.

[markeb]

37 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

That's a sad story. But anecdotal examples don't make good law.

 

And neither do continually making statements unsupported by facts. Constantly repeating the same thing without supporting your statements only works in politics.

 

The thing with taking preventive action is you never know how bad it would have been without it. And my wife also lost her mother to this. So my tolerance is about where yorky's is.

 

Wrong thread.

[K.T.B.]

My condolences to both yorky and markeb for your losses.  

[VickyMcG]

2 hours ago, yorky said:

I have no idea if one figure or another is true. I can only speak for my wife’s family. Her mother has died and both her brother and sister were hospitalised, her brother was a day or so away from death, they asked him permission to put him in a coma if needed and did he wish to be resuscitated. He was on morphine and using a c pap.  We have put back mums funeral twice so brother and sister can attend and brother may still need to be pushed in a wheelchair. Both in their 50s.I guess when some people state it’s all a bit of a con they tend to be the ones not badly effected. Personally as a couple we are not risk averse but having seen this first hand it’s one hell of a frightening experience.

So sorry, that is terrible. :~(

[UnorigionalName]

3 hours ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Why stop at April 11th? Everyone knows Covid deaths are being reported at a far higher number than there are actual Covid deaths. Dr. Burkes said it was about 25% over representation and that's what they're telling us. Probably closer to 40% or 50%. 

 

Italy said 99% of the people who died had other comorbidities. The virus is real, the statistics and the models never we're.

 

Oh read that wrong, should have included this in original response.  Covid deaths are probably being under-reported (see Fauci)  Who is Dr. Burkes? can't seem to find what you are referencing.

 

So if you look at the graphs, where are all the excess deaths coming from?  The reported COVID deaths don't even account for all the excess deaths.  The true COVID deaths are probably ~50% higher than the reported COVID deaths.  Heart-attack-patient-not-coming-in-because-of-covid is roughly balanced by decreased murder and traffic accidents last 2 months.  That huge spike of unexplained excess deaths, what explanation is there.

 

So no, everyone knows COVID deaths are being UNDER-reported.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html

Edited May 29, 2020 by UnorigionalName

[VickyMcG]

12 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Oh read that wrong, should have included this in original response.  Covid deaths are probably being under-reported (see Fauci)  Who is Dr. Burkes? can't seem to find what you are referencing.

 

So if you look at the graphs, where are all the excess deaths coming from?  The reported COVID deaths don't even account for all the excess deaths.  The true COVID deaths are probably ~50% higher than the reported COVID deaths.  Heart-attack-patient-not-coming-in-because-of-covid is roughly balanced by decreased murder and traffic accidents last 2 months.  That huge spike of unexplained excess deaths, what explanation is there.

 

So no, everyone knows COVID deaths are being UNDER-reported.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html

That's Dr. Birx. Very educated, intelligent, experienced, however, Dr. Fauci is clearer and to-the-point.  I love how he explains things.  He knows his audience.  Dr. Birx tends to drone on until she gets to the point, just a little.  Still admire both of them.

Edited May 29, 2020 by VickyMcG

[pumpkin 11]

3 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Oh read that wrong, should have included this in original response.  Covid deaths are probably being under-reported (see Fauci)  Who is Dr. Burkes? can't seem to find what you are referencing.

 

So if you look at the graphs, where are all the excess deaths coming from?  The reported COVID deaths don't even account for all the excess deaths.  The true COVID deaths are probably ~50% higher than the reported COVID deaths.  Heart-attack-patient-not-coming-in-because-of-covid is roughly balanced by decreased murder and traffic accidents last 2 months.  That huge spike of unexplained excess deaths, what explanation is there.

 

So no, everyone knows COVID deaths are being UNDER-reported.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronavirus-death-toll-us.html

Oh yes The NY Times such a trusted source 

[Blackduck59]

11 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Oh yes The NY Times such a trusted source 

As opposed to FOX News?

[VickyMcG]

13 minutes ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Oh yes The NY Times such a trusted source 

Actually, yes, they are very trusted.  So is the Washington Post.  Politics aside, they really do stand the test.

[Pushka]

10 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

I just can't believe people would be that reluctant to get a vaccine for a virus that kills so virulently, and makes so many deathly sick even if they do survive!  I know those are the numbers but it amazes me.  Some say they are worried about its safety due to the rapid development.  Not only do the scientists deny that should be a concern, but speaking for myself I would rather risk that than risk getting the virus.  Then there are a percentage who think the virus is not that serious.  Say what?!?!?  On what planet do these morons live???  And then there are those who think they could catch the virus from the vaccination.  OMG will people ever wise up about that?  I wouldn't want those people sailing with me anyway!

But unless it's a raging pandemic, actually getting the virus for the vast majority of people is not that significant. Older people and those with comorbidities of course are at the most risk. And yes I personally know of three people who developed the virus. 

[Knolmom]

Just to add a different perspective, it’s not the cruise line that will require you to show a clear COVID test before sailing. It’s the countries and ports you sail to which would require the test, and most want it 48 hours before the ship arrives in their country. Do u really think the ship is going to offer these tests and then turn around the results in time for you to present it. These countries want to be sure the ship is COVID free so it’s not just something where you won’t be able to get off without it, but that the ship can’t dock unless all passengers and crew are tested an COVID - free. These countries, some of them small island nations, are not into hosting 2 or 3 thousand people roaming around their countries without being assured in the best way they can, whether the visitors are virus free.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Knolmom
Sp

[4774Papa]

My view from reading hundreds of scientific and other factual reports on the coronavirus is that the virus is a threat to be considered, especially for Seniors with underlying conditions.

 

I am 72 and walk about 12 miles a week.  I have no underlying conditions and willing to travel once conditions allow.

However, as long as Europe is shut down to Americans and so many ports are blocked, travel is just not an option, unless I want to drive to visit family here in the USA.

 

From what I read within the past couple of weeks, the fatality rate for people my age WITH NO UNDERLYING medical conditions is extremely low.   However, my view is that until there is a vaccine (which I will take) and/or the foreign travel conditions allow us to visit, we will be home saving our money.

[The_Big_M]

19 hours ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Why stop at April 11th? Everyone knows Covid deaths are being reported at a far higher number than there are actual Covid deaths. Dr. Burkes said it was about 25% over representation and that's what they're telling us. Probably closer to 40% or 50%. 

 

Italy said 99% of the people who died had other comorbidities. The virus is real, the statistics and the models never we're.

 

Actually the statistics you quoted show deaths are higher than would be otherwise. So those stats actually are real. In which case from your argument you need to explain what caused all those other deaths.

 

Unless you're saying those deaths never happened either. Which would be a whole new level of unsupported, unjustified conspiracy theory hokum.

 

So which is it?

[ECCruise]

12 hours ago, pumpkin 11 said:

Oh yes The NY Times such a trusted source 

I only have to see that to know that I am dealing with someone whose knowledge of journalism starts and ends with Zero.