Ruby Princess - Special Inquiry - Evidence To Date

[Cyrix400]

More pax witnesses tomorrow, Tues 23 June - no names available as yet.

 

  Questioning will probably on similar lines i.e.  type of cruise activities undertaken by pax,  any contact with med centre, ,  on board anouncements,  disembarkation procedure, first contact by Health NSW post cruise and any further communication/ interaction  with Health.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Thanks, Cyrix400, for taking the time to repirt on the progress of the enquiry. Much appreciated. 😘

[MicCanberra]

2 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Thanks, Cyrix400,  Much appreciated. 😘

Agreed, thanks.

[Cyrix400]

This is the story relating to the unfortunate situation with Mrs Bacon (the lady taken by the ambulance from Ruby Princess),  and other matters, as reported by ABC news.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-22/ruby-princess-inquiry-hears-flu-diagnosis-before-covid19-death/12381178

Ruby Princess inquiry hears passenger diagnosed with flu, days before she died of coronavirus

“Key points:

• A witness told the inquiry doctors assured her several times her friend only had the flu

• Another said Wollongong Hospital refused to test his wife despite close contact with a COVID-19 case”

 

 

[OzKiwiJJ]

37 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

This is the story relating to the unfortunate situation with Mrs Bacon (the lady taken by the ambulance from Ruby Princess),  and other matters, as reported by ABC news.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-22/ruby-princess-inquiry-hears-flu-diagnosis-before-covid19-death/12381178

Ruby Princess inquiry hears passenger diagnosed with flu, days before she died of coronavirus

 

“Key points:

 

• A witness told the inquiry doctors assured her several times her friend only had the flu

   

• Another said Wollongong Hospital refused to test his wife despite close contact with a COVID-19 case”

 

 

 

There was some theory earlier that Covid-19 could hide behind other illnesses. So if Mrs Bacon had the flu as well as Covid-19 she may have tested positive for the flu and no-one realised she had Covid-19 as well. Very sad.

Edited June 22, 2020 by OzKiwiJJ

[Cruisegroover]

1 hour ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

There was some theory earlier that Covid-19 could hide behind other illnesses. So if Mrs Bacon had the flu as well as Covid-19 she may have tested positive for the flu and no-one realised she had Covid-19 as well. Very sad.

According to the ship log Mrs Bacon tested negative to the flu. So why medical staff told her friend that she had the flu well who knows what was actually said. Her friend was very insistent that was what was said.

[christodan]

1 hour ago, Cruisegroover said:

According to the ship log Mrs Bacon tested negative to the flu. So why medical staff told her friend that she had the flu well who knows what was actually said. Her friend was very insistent that was what was said.

Unless there is concrete evidence, people's accounts should be taken with a grain of salt. I have studied witness accounts in psychology and research has shown how notoriously unreliable people's memories are. It really should be not allowed. 

[BRANDEE]

4 hours ago, christodan said:

Unless there is concrete evidence, people's accounts should be taken with a grain of salt. I have studied witness accounts in psychology and research has shown how notoriously unreliable people's memories are. It really should be not allowed. 

Especially as we get older....lol      I agree with you regarding individual accounts.  Amazing how you can be with someone and  view an experience in two different lights.  The tone of a voice or stare of the eyes can completely change your perspective on a situation. Most people are either audio or visual "learners". That, too, is part of how people recollect situations.  For me I write everything down or it is lost forever in the clouds..name tags were made for me in mind!! 

 

Interesting how some passengers never heard an announcement..but you also have to take into account that those announcements were not made in the cabin or on cabin balconies.  So if you were not in the hall or a public place..you never heard it.  However, it is not as easy to explain a passenger saying they never received any notices to their room..they may not have read it, but plenty of "mail" gets delivered daily.

 

I think Princess has a policy of only piping limited announcements into the cabins  ..not to disturb you.  (One night on another cruise, there was a fire in the hull..the captain every ten minutes announced the ongoing situation..."don'ta worry"..even till two am )  So many times I find myself opening the cabin door ( while getting ready for dinner) to hear what the announcement is only to find out it is the CD telling  you that nights entertainment.

 

 

Regarding the last passenger interviewed, Mrs Roope.  Surprised that the medical center allowed her to visit her sick friend on three accounts. Protocol should have been no visitors..especially if they were telling her flu. Only Mr. Bacon should have been allowed or given diagnose.  But in the end it was a blessing for Mrs. Roope to see her friend..since it ended up the last time..Very sad.

Edited June 22, 2020 by BRANDEE

[Porky55]

The voice of calm you are BRANDEE among all our speculation. Thank you as always 🌹

Happenings on Ruby’s 8th March cruise are a little like the children’s game “Secret Whispers” (not really what it’s called 🙄) where a simple sentence is given to one child to be whispered to the next in a circle of maybe ten ........ the resulting sentence at the tenth child can be quite funny and always very different .
So it could have been with this cruise; because the previous cruise had NSW Health board it, passengers giving evidence are positive that they too ‘heard’ that their cruise would be held and inspected by NSWH ........ “Secret Whispers”  🤫 

 

NB: US children call it “Telephone Game”

[BRANDEE]

20 minutes ago, Porky55 said:

The voice of calm you are BRANDEE among all our speculation. Thank you as always 🌹

Happenings on Ruby’s 8th March cruise are a little like the children’s game “Secret Whispers” (not really what it’s called 🙄) where a simple sentence is given to one child to be whispered to the next in a circle of maybe ten ........ the resulting sentence at the tenth child can be quite funny and always very different .
So it could have been with this cruise; because the previous cruise had NSW Health board it, passengers giving evidence are positive that they too ‘heard’ that their cruise would be held and inspected by NSWH ........ “Secret Whispers”  🤫 

 

NB: US children call it “Telephone Game”

Thank you Porky55 for the compliment.  As a director of a small private school..in my neighborhood..always viewing both sides of the story/incident,  I would always expect prejudices, ignore personal attacks and sprinkle with humor, this usually helped filter out the truth and save the day. I'm talking about the dealings with the parents..the kids were so much easier. 🙂  

 

Yes, the telephone game is just like life..changes the facts as it goes on and on and on..  Only the written word is hard to dispute.

 

Speaking of the written word..Princess sent us two e mails on Mar 6th.We were in the Blue Mts that day and never got the emails and neither did my brother.  Anyway it was titled: Emergency Notification COVID-19 Travel Advisory.    So the words Covid-19 were mentioned pre boarding to those who did get the e mail.  There was yada...yada about Princess keeping in touch with health organizations in relation to covid and keeping the passengers safe.  And quote:  "pre-boarding health reporting and enhanced screening at check in"....temperature taking was assumed but did not happen.  

 

Regarding any Secret Whisper's on board about NSWH boarding on Mar 19am..yep..  heard it myself..three different times with three different reasons..lol   I believed it myself..when they cancelled my rebooked flight going home to a later flight because the NSWH was coming on board.  Oh my...I know I told someone else too...Secret Whispers!! 😞  

[Cyrix400]

8 hours ago, christodan said:

Unless there is concrete evidence, people's accounts should be taken with a grain of salt. I have studied witness accounts in psychology and research has shown how notoriously unreliable people's memories are. It really should be not allowed. 

 

Agree  - but the weight placed on account of a person (witness) is also taken  by watching the person's  demeanonur. And the witness here Mrs Roope presented on video as  quite sharp and 'on the ball' at all times. She was also  quite definite about her interaction with  the ship medical centre -despite her 80th birthday the very next day (The Commissioner wished her happy birthday!).

 

And we already know about the confusion, bungling and not following the best procedures (whatever they were at those very changing  times) by many parties involved.

[christodan]

10 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

And the witness here Mrs Roope presented on video as  quite sharp and 'on the ball' at all times. She was also  quite definite about her interaction

And if I can recall from the research - the most adamant are more often the most wrong!  

 

4 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

.the captain every ten minutes announced the ongoing situation..."don'ta worry"

Oh that brings back memories of the lovely Italian accent of the captain on the Majestic Princess. 

[Cyrix400]

15 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

More pax witnesses tomorrow, Tues 23 June - no names available as yet.

 

  Questioning will probably on similar lines i.e.  type of cruise activities undertaken by pax,  any contact with med centre, ,  on board anouncements,  disembarkation procedure, first contact by Health NSW post cruise and any further communication/ interaction  with Health.

 

The witnesess (pax) for today, Tues 23 June - expected order , subject to change -  in case you know some:

1. Lynette Jones

2. Sharon Schofield

3. Ann Kavanagh 

4. Paul Reid

5. Laraine Fenton

6. Kristy McMahon

 

[mr walker]

11 hours ago, christodan said:

Unless there is concrete evidence, people's accounts should be taken with a grain of salt. I have studied witness accounts in psychology and research has shown how notoriously unreliable people's memories are. It really should be not allowed. 

 

So, by your reckoning, & not specific to this case/hearing, no-one would ever be convicted of a crime on the evidence of an eye witness unless there was verified documentary evidence or photos or video? No-one could ever say I saw him shoot them??

[Ondine]

12 hours ago, Cruisegroover said:

According to the ship log Mrs Bacon tested negative to the flu. So why medical staff told her friend that she had the flu well who knows what was actually said. Her friend was very insistent that was what was said.

 

2 hours ago, Cyrix400 said:

And the witness here Mrs Roope presented on video as  quite sharp and 'on the ball' at all times. She was also  quite definite about her interaction with  the ship medical centre -despite her 80th birthday the very next day (The Commissioner wished her happy birthday!).

 

2 hours ago, christodan said:

And if I can recall from the research - the most adamant are more often the most wrong!  

 

I thought that Mrs Roope enjoyed her 5 minutes of fame and was not about to change her opinion on anything.  She seemed to have plenty of paperwork available to check on, even disputing the amount on her bill down to the cents.  Although she did get a bit flustered on some occasions when challenged.

 

I do not understand how a doctor would discuss a friends actual condition with someone when privacy laws would apply.  Try ringing a hospital to check on a friend and you don't get far apart from a general description if any.

 

I thought she had her birthday card nicely placed so as to be very prominent.  It was the first item I noticed when tuning in.  She was well prepared for her interview.

[OzKiwiJJ]

7 hours ago, BRANDEE said:

 

I think Princess has a policy of only piping limited announcements into the cabins  ..not to disturb you.  (One night on another cruise, there was a fire in the hull..the captain every ten minutes announced the ongoing situation..."don'ta worry"..even till two am )  So many times I find myself opening the cabin door ( while getting ready for dinner) to hear what the announcement is only to find out it is the CD telling  you that nights entertainment.

That's standard on all the cruise lines I've been on. Only itinerary changes, ie last minute port cancellations due to adverse weather conditions, or emergency announcements are piped through to the cabins. 

 

We had a fire in the room service galley on the same deck as our cabin once, at 2am. I think they got it under control fairly quickly so we didn't get lots of announcements but I couldn't get back to sleep until it was all over. 

[christodan]

24 minutes ago, mr walker said:

So, by your reckoning, & not specific to this case/hearing, no-one would ever be convicted of a crime on the evidence of an eye witness unless there was verified documentary evidence or photos or video? No-one could ever say I saw him shoot them??

 I was merely reporting on  research that has investigated crimes and witness testimonies. And the scary thing is how many innocent people have been put behind bars. Only now through DNA testing have many people been released. There have been studies done on mock lineups for example, and 'innocent' people have been pointed out as the 'criminal' when say there was no 'criminal' in the line up. Some people seem to think that they have  to point somebody out rather than nobody. 

[Cyrix400]

INTERESTING STORY BEHIND THE  CREATION OF 'SPIN '

 The first "Key point' of Health NSW Ruby Princess report, which the Commissioner called 'spin' reads:

"NSW Health had enhanced risk assessment processing in place to assist the Commonwealth in assessing passengers arriving from international waters on on cruise ships. This focus was in place from February 2020and went far beyond the processes of most other jurisdictions at that time. The risk assessment process included a review of information about a disease on individual ships and a review of a panel of public health physicians"

 

The Commissioner wanted to find out exactly what was the role of the Director of Media in NSW Ministry of Health in connection with the preparation of the Ruby Princess report - and he called for full explanation.

This was provided in detailed Exhibit 68 by Shaun Davitt (previously Development Executive and Supervising Producer at Seven Network). It is his role to review reports prepared internally at NSW Health, (that may be potentially of interest to the media), for clarity and ease of understanding by non-medical people.

 

The  first 'Key Point' above in the report  was originally point 4 of that report - Mr Davitt recommendation to move it to No 1in the report was approved.   His  other suggestions to show that Health NSW was diligent in screening the pax (by stating how many pax tested) AND  to show that NSW was just a cog in the wheel (by showing the responsibility of other agencies) - were NOT accepted by NSW Health.

[By The Bay]

Listening to the evidence today from Sharon Schofield has shown how her recollections of memory was not as accurate as written evidence.

[mr walker]

16 minutes ago, By The Bay said:

Listening to the evidence today from Sharon Schofield has shown how her recollections of memory was not as accurate as written evidence.

Of course, but sometimes there is no written evidence, so a judgement must be made based on testimony - I'm sure my namesake will make a satisfactory assessment of all the evidence in his findings.

[Cyrix400]

Interesting to hear from the evidence the many way in which Covid 19 behaves.

One witness was cleared of Covid by Health, but a few weeks later diagnosed with Covid.

 

Another witness, Mrs Kavanagh, is convinced that she and the two companion sitting on one side of a large table got Covid when a waitress sneezed on them - the people sitting on the other side of the same table were not affected.

[Cruisegroover]

6 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

Interesting to hear from the evidence the many way in which Covid 19 behaves.

One witness was cleared of Covid by Health, but a few weeks later diagnosed with Covid.

 

Another witness, Mrs Kavanagh, is convinced that she and the two companion sitting on one side of a large table got Covid when a waitress sneezed on them - the people sitting on the other side of the same table were not affected.

Was this in the restaurant or buffet? The big question would be did that waitress had/got COVID? 

[Cyrix400]

23 minutes ago, Cruisegroover said:

Was this in the restaurant or buffet? The big question would be did that waitress had/got COVID? 

 

It was in the restaurant. No clear answer to your other question.

 

 

[Aus Traveller]

35 minutes ago, Cyrix400 said:

Interesting to hear from the evidence the many way in which Covid 19 behaves.

One witness was cleared of Covid by Health, but a few weeks later diagnosed with Covid.

 

Another witness, Mrs Kavanagh, is convinced that she and the two companion sitting on one side of a large table got Covid when a waitress sneezed on them - the people sitting on the other side of the same table were not affected.

I guess she heard the Police Commissioner's comment that the virus was spread by a waiter sneezing on the passengers in the restaurant.

[MicCanberra]

I wonder if the sneeze from a waiter includes gratuities, or you have to pay the extra?