Maybe the CDC is right after all

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

21 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

 

I don't think these are necessarily unfair; they are tailored approach to a specific industry in an evolving and developing situation. As far as crew repatriation; I think CDC made it expensive and difficult for cruise lines to meet, but not impossible, and I don't think cruise lines were unfairly targeted. If the mindset is these actions are unfair, yes, you can easily cite any number of actions to support your claim. 

 

Practically speaking, do I think what the CDC is asking cruise lines to come up with as a plan is feasible and workable? No. Do I think it is on the cruise lines to come up with a method of compliance? Yes. That's not a suggestion of a solution; I don't think I have a better idea than all the minds at work on the problem. I don't know how you guarantee not to drop off 2000-6000 sick people at a US port, or how you have standby capacity in other ships, or how you strike a deal with an island nation government that probably couldn't handle 25 sick people let alone 2500. And so on. Never before thought of scenarios with no realistic solution. This all sounds very challenging to me. 

 

If the cruise lines are soliciting advice from people outside of their field, consultants, logistics experts, etc., I am not aware or privy to it. I do find it interesting.  

LMaxwell - Right.

After the devastating blunders by the cruise industry in February and March, ports and coast guards and health were forced to scramble - during the first stages of a pandemic - to bail out cruise ship after cruise ship. Dead passengers, dying passengers, severely ill passengers, terrified & quarantined passengers  ... and just as much awfulness imposed on the crew, too. All of it inflicted by the greed and stupidity of the cruise execs.

It would be criminal for the CDC to demand anything less than what's listed in the No Sail Order ... precisely because the cruise lines behaved so unbelievably shabbily (not a first for them, by the way). 

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/04/15/2020-07930/no-sail-order-and-suspension-of-further-embarkation-notice-of-modification-and-extension-and-other

Section 3 subheads G-M are the heart of the No Sail Order, and make it abundantly clear what the cruise lines will need to do.

The failure of cruise executives to do this lies entirely on their heads. If their reply is "we can't," then the directors need to clean house and hire people who can. At least at the beginning, though, they tried to take the arrogant CLIA stance of "we won't" .... and that clearly backfired.

Indeed, CLIA is another house that's overdue for a deep cleaning. 

 

 

 

[Organized Chaos]

When Carnival planned to make a limited return on August 1st, some people said it was too soon, they were putting people's health as risk, etc. etc. Now Carnival chooses to extend their own shutdown 15 days beyond the time frame recommended by the CLIA and we have people saying it's a sign they, and the cruise industry as a whole, don't know what they're doing. Carnival can't win with some people.

 

It's so unfortunate that there's a strong effort on this forum to keep the negativity front and center.

 

Case in point, the popular narrative that some of the states are experiencing spikes in cases. A handful of people on this forum are just parroting what they hear from the fearmongering media outlets & politicians because, in their minds, it justifies the things they've been saying for the last few months. What we aren't seeing/hearing is the other side of the story. Even with recent spikes, the total numbers coming out of states like FL & TX, which seem to be the prime targets on here, still don't even come close to what happened in places like NY & NJ. Even with recent spikes, deaths are trending downwards nationwide. We're looking at a 90% decrease in deaths since it peaked. Signs are showing that the virus is attenuating, as viral outbreaks usually do. The new cases that are being highlighted in those targeted states, and elsewhere, are of the younger demographic, which is a sign the most vulnerable populations are now being protected better. There's a reason some people will now only talk about the "number of cases" statistic and avoid talking about statistics that show things are getting better. It's because that number is now the scariest. With deaths and hospitalizations down dramatically, it's the only number they have left to use to spread fear.

[BlerkOne]

It isn't alarmist to report facts. Texas is doubling cases every 3 weeks. Half of the states are reporting increases in cases. The number of young people with covid is skyrocketing. Over 120,000 dead in the US and the numbers are still going up.

 

The only way to get control of the virus is to be proactive and not reactive. The US is far from done with the first wave and there almost certainly will be a second wave. Flu season will be starting again in a few month and covid will still be with us if people don't stop "kidding".

[BlerkOne]

EU is opening July 1 and may bar Americans due to failures on covid-19. Note: cruising on a small scale has begun in Europe and should be expanding next month and after. Not an alarmist post. America needs to step up.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/world/europe/coronavirus-EU-American-travel-ban.html

 

 

[OceanCruise]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

It isn't alarmist to report facts. Texas is doubling cases every 3 weeks. Half of the states are reporting increases in cases. The number of young people with covid is skyrocketing. Over 120,000 dead in the US and the numbers are still going up.

 

The only way to get control of the virus is to be proactive and not reactive. The US is far from done with the first wave and there almost certainly will be a second wave. Flu season will be starting again in a few month and covid will still be with us if people don't stop "kidding".

 

This article discusses the misleading spike in Florida cases 

https://www.conservativereview.com/news/horowitz-ways-media-misleading-record-spike-florida/

[PhillyFan33579]

3 hours ago, Organized Chaos said:

When Carnival planned to make a limited return on August 1st, some people said it was too soon, they were putting people's health as risk, etc. etc. Now Carnival chooses to extend their own shutdown 15 days beyond the time frame recommended by the CLIA and we have people saying it's a sign they, and the cruise industry as a whole, don't know what they're doing. Carnival can't win with some people.

 

It's so unfortunate that there's a strong effort on this forum to keep the negativity front and center.

 

Case in point, the popular narrative that some of the states are experiencing spikes in cases. A handful of people on this forum are just parroting what they hear from the fearmongering media outlets & politicians because, in their minds, it justifies the things they've been saying for the last few months. What we aren't seeing/hearing is the other side of the story. Even with recent spikes, the total numbers coming out of states like FL & TX, which seem to be the prime targets on here, still don't even come close to what happened in places like NY & NJ. Even with recent spikes, deaths are trending downwards nationwide. We're looking at a 90% decrease in deaths since it peaked. Signs are showing that the virus is attenuating, as viral outbreaks usually do. The new cases that are being highlighted in those targeted states, and elsewhere, are of the younger demographic, which is a sign the most vulnerable populations are now being protected better. There's a reason some people will now only talk about the "number of cases" statistic and avoid talking about statistics that show things are getting better. It's because that number is now the scariest. With deaths and hospitalizations down dramatically, it's the only number they have left to use to spread fear.

You make a lot of good points but the only issue that matters, at least as it relates to this site, is when will cruising resume. For whatever reason there is a huge disconnect between the CDC and cruise lines. No matter what anyone says or hopes, cruises are not going to resume in the US until the CDC and cruise lines get on the same page. Right now the CDC continues to give off the impression, at least from my perspective, that they couldn’t care less if/when cruising resumes and the cruise lines so far, at least publicly, have not presented a united front to counter the CDC’s ban, which is going to be extended according to a few Carnival officers I know. I was always under the belief, and posted it on this site in the past, that cruises would resume fairly soon after theme parks like Disney reopened. Apparently I was wrong by a long shot in that belief. 

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, OceanCruise said:

 

This article discusses the misleading spike in Florida cases 

https://www.conservativereview.com/news/horowitz-ways-media-misleading-record-spike-florida/

 

I don't have much interest in debating deniers. The rest of the world knows how pathetic the response is in the US. The US death count is over 120,000 and climbing. Likely 200,000 by October. How many have to die before even the deniers say enough? There will be some long term effects to young people who survive the virus. Florida is one of the states who refuse to provide numbers that the CDC requests. Information hiding is not going to help win the battle.

[mpdog42]

Listen if you want to criticize the CDC and the US Government, as a American Citizen you have every right to....but if your are posting from outside the US...What gives you the right to criticize MY government...If you don't like they way things are conducted here...Its simple! Don't cruise out of the United States...Go somewere else!!!

 

By the way this is not "Political".....It just being honest!!

[bitemyfly]

3 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

EU is opening July 1 and may bar Americans due to failures on covid-19. Note: cruising on a small scale has begun in Europe and should be expanding next month and after. Not an alarmist post. America needs to step up.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/23/world/europe/coronavirus-EU-American-travel-ban.html

 

 

Just as long in ‘stepping up” we in the us don’t approach the eu death ratio I’m ok .  

[jimbo5544]

6 hours ago, LMaxwell said:

 

I don't think these are necessarily unfair; they are tailored approach to a specific industry in an evolving and developing situation. As far as crew repatriation; I think CDC made it expensive and difficult for cruise lines to meet, but not impossible, and I don't think cruise lines were unfairly targeted. If the mindset is these actions are unfair, yes, you can easily cite any number of actions to support your claim. 

 

Practically speaking, do I think what the CDC is asking cruise lines to come up with as a plan is feasible and workable? No. Do I think it is on the cruise lines to come up with a method of compliance? Yes. That's not a suggestion of a solution; I don't think I have a better idea than all the minds at work on the problem. I don't know how you guarantee not to drop off 2000-6000 sick people at a US port, or how you have standby capacity in other ships, or how you strike a deal with an island nation government that probably couldn't handle 25 sick people let alone 2500. And so on. Never before thought of scenarios with no realistic solution. This all sounds very challenging to me. 

 

If the cruise lines are soliciting advice from people outside of their field, consultants, logistics experts, etc., I am not aware or privy to it. I do find it interesting.  Hope you have been doing well Jimbo 

We have not talked in a long while, hope you and yours are well.  Someday when this is all over and cruises are in a somewhat normal state, we should cruise together.   

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, mpdog42 said:

Listen if you want to criticize the CDC and the US Government, as a American Citizen you have every right to....but if your are posting from outside the US...What gives you the right to criticize MY government...If you don't like they way things are conducted here...Its simple! Don't cruise out of the United States...Go somewere else!!!

 

By the way this is not "Political".....It just being honest!!

LOL, love it.  We seldom agree, but I enjoyed this one.  This weekend I was at a campground and a couple 4 sites over, the guy was retired bird from the ARMY.  Had a great hat, on the ack it said:  We do bad things to bad people.  Loved it