What Is The Current Financial State of the Cruise Lines?

[LocoLoco1]

Yeah. Carnival lost $10.2/Billion last year.  And tomorrow doesn’t too good either. Or Tuesday... 🤷🏽‍♂️

[navybankerteacher]

Suppose a corporation does run out of cash — goes “belly up”. ;  none of us sail on “Carnival Corp” or “NCL” or “RCCL” — we sail on ships which are now owned by them and (until recently) were operated by them.   When conditions permit, the ships we actually sail upon will sail — perhaps owned by new, or at least reorganized, corporate owners.  

 

Most US airlines have gone through bankruptcy reorganization — some several times —- with virtually no impact on scheduled flights.  

 

The return of ships to sailing can and will  happen when conditions are right - as passengers we generally have little interest in whether there has been a change in ownership.  Of course recovery of deposits might be impacted, but aside from that the financial health of the corporate owners is not really a concern of the cruising public.

[BoozinCroozin]

10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Suppose a corporation does run out of cash — goes “belly up”. ;  none of us sail on “Carnival Corp” or “NCL” or “RCCL” — we sail on ships which are now owned by them and (until recently) were operated by them.   When conditions permit, the ships we actually sail upon will sail — perhaps owned by new, or at least reorganized, corporate owners.  

 

Most US airlines have gone through bankruptcy reorganization — some several times —- with virtually no impact on scheduled flights.  

 

The return of ships to sailing can and will  happen when conditions are right - as passengers we generally have little interest in whether there has been a change in ownership.  Of course recovery of deposits might be impacted, but aside from that the financial health of the corporate owners is not really a concern of the cruising public.

Filing for bankruptcy does not mean the cruise line or ships are gone. It protects them from creditors to a point to restructure their debt and payments. In the case you are discussing is that a cruise line does go belly up and creditors take the ships. They have absolutely no obligation to anyone that purchased a cruise. You are not even in their thoughts.

 

The reality is that cruise lines will need to begin the process of bankruptcy before they HAVE to. When they have to, it will be too late. The other issue is some of the recent debt they took on included guarantees of ships and private islands for the loans. If they default on them, they will lose those assets. Bankruptcy cannot protect the collateral. What will happen in the restructuring is everyone will be losing a bit of their pie. Those with FCC that were not exercised on a booking could lose their FCC, the debt holders will have to negotiate and accept alternate terms for repayment. A lot can and will happen if it comes to that.

 

There is a lot to it. I would not want to be a person that is "owed" something by a cruise line if they do file for bankruptcy. The end result is the lowest debt holders will get the least...anyone with an FCC. 

[drsel]

2 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

Filing for bankruptcy does not mean the cruise line or ships are gone. It protects them from creditors to a point to restructure their debt and payments. In the case you are discussing is that a cruise line does go belly up and creditors take the ships. They have absolutely no obligation to anyone that purchased a cruise. You are not even in their thoughts.

 

The reality is that cruise lines will need to begin the process of bankruptcy before they HAVE to. When they have to, it will be too late. The other issue is some of the recent debt they took on included guarantees of ships and private islands for the loans. If they default on them, they will lose those assets. Bankruptcy cannot protect the collateral. What will happen in the restructuring is everyone will be losing a bit of their pie. Those with FCC that were not exercised on a booking could lose their FCC, the debt holders will have to negotiate and accept alternate terms for repayment. A lot can and will happen if it comes to that.

 

There is a lot to it. I would not want to be a person that is "owed" something by a cruise line if they do file for bankruptcy. The end result is the lowest debt holders will get the least...anyone with an FCC. 

I would recommend don't keep any idle FCCs,  but utilise them as soon as possible to get a confirmed booking.

 A confirmed booking is likely to be honoured when cruising resumes, with or without the need for vaccination.

[iancal]

Where would they file?  In Panama if CCL??  Who has jurisdiction?

Edited February 15, 2021 by iancal

[gerryuk]

Surprise, surprise. The UK website of Costa has come to life today, for the first time since November.

Not sure about US and other nations websites.

 

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, iancal said:

Where would they file?  In Panama if CCL??  Who has jurisdiction?

The "big three" cruise line holding companies, although not incorporated in the US, do qualify to file in the US as their corporate headquarters are here as well as because a significant percentage of their revenue is derived from the US. Generally US bankruptcy laws are considered to be among the most flexible in the world, making it relatively easy to reorganize, so there's no doubt if any declared bankruptcy it would be in the US.

Edited February 15, 2021 by njhorseman

[drsel]

1 hour ago, gerryuk said:

Surprise, surprise. The UK website of Costa has come to life today, for the first time since November.

Not sure about US and other nations websites.

 

Costa must be reading your complaints here on CC.

They have to please loyal, faithful customers.

[drsel]

But the Costa app is still in maintenance.

It should be okay soon.

The website functioning normally gives us hope. The crew expect to resume work in May 2021.

[LocoLoco1]

Crown, Renaissance , Festival, Premier, ‘Big Red Boat’. etc. to name just a few lines I recall that ‘re-organised’ themselves into oblivion. I sailed on Chandris Lines; they had an interesting final chapter. 

[drsel]

10 hours ago, LocoLoco1 said:

Crown, Renaissance , Festival, Premier, ‘Big Red Boat’. etc. to name just a few lines I recall that ‘re-organised’ themselves into oblivion. I sailed on Chandris Lines; they had an interesting final chapter. 

1. So did they all suddenly shut down and disappear?

2. How was notice given to their customers, creditors, shareholders, etc?

3. Did they honour any Cruises booked or did they refund each and every deposit?

4. Kindly describe the interesting final chapter of Chandris.

Edited February 16, 2021 by drsel

[LocoLoco1]

3 hours ago, drsel said:

1. So did they all suddenly shut down and disappear?

2. How was notice given to their customers, creditors, shareholders, etc?

3. Did they honour any Cruises booked or did they refund each and every deposit?

4. Kindly describe the interesting final chapter of Chandris.

Renaissance Cruise passengers were off-loaded at various foriegn ports in the days after they folded. Festival went bankrupt in 2004 and MSC bought some of their ships at auction. Chandris created confusing spin-offs with his brother. ie Celebrity Lines, Fantasy, Celebrity Cruise, Fantasy Celebrity, then remnants were absorbed by Royal Carribbean Line. My Chandris ship had us finally dining with the crew, as the Dining Rm. closed.  Chandris name finally disappeared. With all that being said, Creditors and creative Accountants keep ships afloat to the bitter end (if possible) before scrapping them. IMHO, FCC holders would be quite far down the food chain methinks should their Cruiseline actually fold, so pay with a Credit Card. 

[drsel]

40 minutes ago, LocoLoco1 said:

Renaissance Cruise passengers were off-loaded at various foriegn ports in the days after they folded. Festival went bankrupt in 2004 and MSC bought some of their ships at auction. Chandris created confusing spin-offs with his brother. ie Celebrity Lines, Fantasy, Celebrity Cruise, Fantasy Celebrity, then remnants were absorbed by Royal Carribbean Line. My Chandris ship had us finally dining with the crew, as the Dining Rm. closed.  Chandris name finally disappeared. With all that being said, Creditors and creative Accountants keep ships afloat to the bitter end (if possible) before scrapping them. IMHO, FCC holders would be quite far down the food chain methinks should their Cruiseline actually fold, so pay with a Credit Card. 

thanks so much for this priceless information.

 

as advised, no one should hold any FCCs at all.

Use them to book Cruises as soon as possible.

 

But If one has deliberately and intentionally booked a Cruise with his credit card and then the cruise line cancels his Cruise or goes bankrupt; can he win a credit card  dispute? If there is no fraud involved?

Edited February 16, 2021 by drsel

[LocoLoco1]

Credit Cards are pretty good at getting the cardholder back what they paid for. An FCC, however, is akin to an IOU between 2 private parties. Hypothetically, should a Cruiseline parent company spin off/fold certain brands and start anew then I suppose they COULD honor old FCC’s with the newly created Cruiseline. AZAMARA, last month’s Royal Caribbean off-load to Sycamore Partners may portend the future of the big cruiselines. Desperate times..

[clo]

5 hours ago, drsel said:

But If one has deliberately and intentionally booked a Cruise with his credit card and then the cruise line cancels his Cruise or goes bankrupt; can he win a credit card  dispute? If there is no fraud involved?

AFAIK while one is 'entitled' to a refund, in the case of bankruptcy one would be an "unsecured creditor" and therefore at the bottom of the list.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, clo said:

AFAIK while one is 'entitled' to a refund, in the case of bankruptcy one would be an "unsecured creditor" and therefore at the bottom of the list.

Close, but not quite — holders of subordinated debt would be bottom tier of unsecured creditors (in some cases the structure will involve junior subordinated debt). Holders of FCC’s could (and probably) have clamants junior to them.

[drsel]

Investors are definitely bullish and optimistic.

Share prices of Carnival and Royal Caribbean both jumped over 9%.  Do you know why?

[clo]

32 minutes ago, drsel said:

Investors are definitely bullish and optimistic.

Share prices of Carnival and Royal Caribbean both jumped over 9%.  Do you know why?

Why?

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, drsel said:

Investors are definitely bullish and optimistic.

Share prices of Carnival and Royal Caribbean both jumped over 9%.  Do you know why?

Hopefully, they know something we all do not know.

[drsel]

11 hours ago, clo said:

Why?

I think it's because new bookings for 2022 and 2023 are booming, due to the pent up demand.

People have hardly spent anything in the last one year on entertainment and holidays.
the cruise fares are skyrocketing because of this.

Edited February 17, 2021 by drsel

[drsel]

Everyone is optimistic about the future, because vaccinations are happening fast and furious all over the world.

So its only a matter of time before the pandemic ends and cruising resumes.

Investor sense this optimism and have already started pushing up share prices.

Edited February 17, 2021 by drsel

[LocoLoco1]

If the ships are in good condition, cruise lines WILL sail em eventually. Turning a $Profit$ might be tough, however. Speculators with their Money Market funds yielding essentially ZERO interest are buying stocks lately. 

[c-boy]

1 hour ago, LocoLoco1 said:

If the ships are in good condition, cruise lines WILL sail em eventually. Turning a $Profit$ might be tough, however. Speculators with their Money Market funds yielding essentially ZERO interest are buying stocks lately. 

and with this cold snap, commodities  👍 +  💲