What's going on with NCLH stock prices?

[TrulyBlonde]

2 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Please name the companies that the federal government has assisted during the pandemic that are not incorporated in the US primarily for the purpose of circumventing the tax code. The answer is none, nor should there be any. The provisions of the CARES Act were written to exclude them. Why should my tax dollars go to support a company that hides behind a curtain of foreign incorporation in order to evade taxes?

It looks like you've swallowed the CLIA bait . Even if their guesstimates of the industry's contribution to the economy are correct the suffering of the cruise industry is a minor skin rash in the infection of the pandemic .Millions of employees...US citizens... in other industries have lost their jobs and huge numbers of small businesses have folded . The cruise industry only employs a few thousand Americans. Why should an industry that has built its business model on raking in millions from Americans while returning little get a break others haven't? 

Are you going to continue cruising? If you despise the cruise industry you should probably reconsider booking any in the future. This could be your John Kerry moment.

[pinotlover]

Isn’t the real issue the singling out of the cruise industry for onerous actions. If one can ride on a crowded subway or fly in a full plane, why can’t they cruise on a capacity limited ship? If one can eat in a restaurant in any large city, why can’t they do so on a ship? Major League ballparks are going to be opening soon for fans. No banning of that for baseball enthusiasts, but capacity controlled ships with all aboard vaccinated, far too dangerous. Show me the science.
 

We are all rightfully being encouraged to be vaccinated. Then told when/if fully vaccinated a cruise ship is still considered too dangerous by the CDC. Show me the science. 

[njhorseman]

6 minutes ago, TrulyBlonde said:

Are you going to continue cruising? If you despise the cruise industry you should probably reconsider booking any in the future. This could be your John Kerry moment.

 

I don't despise the cruise industry. I just have zero sympathy for a business whose plight is the direct result of their chosen business model. Actions have consequences. If I make a business decision then I both reap any profits and suffer any loses that are the result of my decisions...and believe me, my businesses have been on both sides of that profit and loss statement.

 

What really bothers me are the cruise industry toadies posting on this site who think the cruise lines are being unfairly punished by the whims of capricious and uncaring government bureaucrats .

 

It's not out of the question that I may never cruise again, but if so it's more likely to be due to the industry's failure to prove to my satisfaction that cruising is safe. If the cruise industry survives, fine, as long as they didn't do it by dipping into my pockets.

[LHT28]

2 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Please name the companies that the federal government has assisted during the pandemic that are not incorporated in the US primarily for the purpose of circumventing the tax code. The answer is none, nor should there be any. The provisions of the CARES Act were written to exclude them. Why should my tax dollars go to support a company that hides behind a curtain of foreign incorporation in order to evade taxes?

 

Your post I replied to did not state that Companies were helped by the US government  as we know the USA did not give the cruise lines any bailout  money

 

I am sure you could search & find  many companies that do not pay  Federal tax    among many political members who  put their money offshore  just as some officials here in Canada  do

😉

 

[LHT28]

1 hour ago, njhorseman said:

 If the cruise industry survives, fine, as long as they didn't do it by dipping into my pockets.

How will you pay for your cruise ? Out of your pocket or expecting a free ride ?

 

Didn't the airlines get  some hand out  to stay in business ..will you still fly since they were dipping into your pocket ?🤔

 

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, LHT28 said:

Your post I replied to did not state that Companies were helped by the US government  as we know the USA did not give the cruise lines any bailout  money

 

I am sure you could search & find  many companies that do not pay  Federal tax    among many political members who  put their money offshore  just as some officials here in Canada  do

😉

 

Not paying taxes in a particular year because a business hasn't been profitable is not the issue. Being incorporated in foreign countries and flying flags of convenience, which is what the cruise industry does so that they never have to pay taxes regardless of how profitable they are is the issue.

 

To add insult to injury, Frank Del Rio received $36.4 million in compensation in  2020 while the company lost billions and its employees lost their jobs.

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/24636-36-4-million-for-norwegian-cruise-ceo-in-2020-plus-10-million-more.html?fbclid=IwAR0cVWji5WOSMIqPL4im-Z-0ZsvvVGUH129QW1zmYvYLe_6p00flJnKAP1k

Edited March 25, 2021 by njhorseman

[Bellaggio Cruisers]

I can’t believe most of what I am reading. This is not about whether the cruise lines are good or bad. 
Come on...

 It’s about those of us who want to cruise again. If you are not interested in getting on a ship soon, why are you commenting?

Its time the CDC comments about how the vaccine affects cruising. Not a word. Shame on them. 
sheila

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, LHT28 said:

How will you pay for your cruise ? Out of your pocket or expecting a free ride ?

 

Didn't the airlines get  some hand out  to stay in business ..will you still fly since they were dipping into your pocket ?🤔

 

Of course I pay for it out of pocket from my discretionary income when I choose to. The government doesn't force me to pay the cruise lines one thin dime, which is what would be happening if my tax dollars were used to subsidize the industry.

 

The US-based airlines are incorporated in the US, pay federal income taxes when they are profitable, employ large numbers of US citizens,  and abide by US labor laws and safety regulations. See the difference?

Edited March 25, 2021 by njhorseman

[Hlitner]

6 hours ago, pinotlover said:

Fauci has always been very clear: He doesn’t consider economic consequences in any of his decisions. Period.

 

Those considerations are the job of someone else. If and when that someone is napping bad things economically will happen. 

My wife gets annoyed with me for often defending Tony Fauci.  It goes back over thirty years when I worked with some Aids programs where Tony Fauci "made his bones" and earned the respect of nearly everyone (even the gay activist groups).  

 

So lets be clear that Anthony Fauci does not work for the CDC and has never worked at the CDC.  He has spent his career at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) which is a different agency and is now running the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) which is an arm of the NIH.  Granted that Dr. Fauci now has a major role in the White House, but this apparently has nothing to do with the CDC's position vis-a-vis cruises.  Today I read that the new Director of the CDC (Dr. Wallensky) was asked, last week, about the cruse issue and she apparently had no clue that the CDC was the only agency behind the continued cruise shut down.  Bottom line is that the CDC is a big agency, has a lot more on its agenda then the cruise industry, and has a new director that is still getting herself up to speed on the issues.  That is the nature of government and what happens when there is a change of administration.

 

So while we all might be annoyed at the CDC (because they have become the enemy of the cruise industry) lets not extend that to Anthony Fauci.  That being said I do remember Dr. Fauci saying that he has never cruised :).

 

Hank

[Homerody]

I started reading this thread because of interest in the intersection of cruising and financial markets.

 

Interesting discussion about related issues.  One point I'd like to address is the comparison of cruise lines to restaurants, sports stadiums, and yes - airlines, among others.

 

I think a key practical difference is that one does not spend days in a restaurant, sports arena etc.. it is a few hours, at most.  Cruising is much different.

 

Think about the publicity (for government and cruise line) should an outbreak happen on board of a ship and the humanitarian crises that results from sovereign nations refusing the ship entry into their ports for fear of (re)spreading the virus.

 

And on the airlines - the airline industry in the US is a direct employer of many more employees than cruise lines (a point made upthread).  Also, being "stuck" in a metal tube for, say, 16 hours on a flight from ATL to JNB (or now CPT) is not the equivalent of a 7 day or 21 day cruise.  A key difference, I will not be sharing 3 meals a day for a number of days and passing the butter and salt and time and walking the same decks and walking the same walking track with say 690 (or gasp 4000)  other passengers for a number of days.

 

And I cannot recall an airliner flying around for days trying to find a place to land because of, say, a norovirus out break during a flight, say,  from EWR to SIN (one of the longest flights that was around for a while). 

 

Another key difference, is that airline flights (domestic and international) serve a dual purpose - ferrying people and cargo.  The latter has been especially lucrative and critical in supply chain of  PPE among other things.  Cruises are not remotely the same in this way.

 

A quick review of the airline industry shows that their long haul international passenger business has been decimated in large part due to governmental entry restrictions and bans by most countries.

 

So to say airlines are getting preferential governmental treatment - would not elicit an argument from me.  They have pandemic related obstacles to work through also.  But the equivalence of airline to cruise company is a false one.

 

Now back to NCLH, is it a better buy than JETS?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Anyone?  (kidding and channeling Ferris Bueller's Economics teacher!)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Homerody

[RunBikeCruiseDC]

17 hours ago, Homerody said:

I started reading this thread because of interest in the intersection of cruising and financial markets.

 

Interesting discussion about related issues.  One point I'd like to address is the comparison of cruise lines to restaurants, sports stadiums, and yes - airlines, among others.

 

You made a lot of good points.  Another reason you cannot compare cruise ships to airlines (domestic flights), trains and such - they have a single point of origin/end for a shorter period of time.  You get one sick passenger, that passenger not only mixes with other passengers and crew, they also are island hopping during excursions, potentially infecting locals in many locations.  Or a passenger could pick up a virus from a local then bring it on board. 

 

Like many on this forum, I am well aware of the cruise industry structures itself to get out of paying taxes in the US and pay decent wages  I have a love/hate relationship with the way they do things.  However, we also tip very well on vacation as those non-US citizens really are worth their weight in gold.

 

Also - the CDC is not trying to "kill any industry", they are not economic advisors.  

[RunBikeCruiseDC]

Has anybody been following how are vaccinations going in the countries where most of the staff is from?  Or are they planning for them to get vaccinated in the US?  

[RetiredLifer]

1 hour ago, RunBikeCruiseDC said:

Has anybody been following how are vaccinations going in the countries where most of the staff is from?  Or are they planning for them to get vaccinated in the US?  

Have no idea how they are planning to vaccinate staff. 

 

To answer your first question, you can get raw numbers from this site on Bloomberg.  But it does tot tell you who is getting the shots but only the daily shot rate and how many shots have been given and at the present rate, how long it will be before 75% of the population is covered.  I think the cruise companies have a plan to get their crews vaccinated when they are needed to staff the ships..

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/?srnd=premium

For example, as of yesterday:

"In the Philippines, the latest vaccination rate is 50,138 doses per day, on average. At this pace, it will take another 8.8 years to cover 75% of the population."

508, 332 shots have been given, enoughfor 0.2% of the population

Edited March 26, 2021 by RetiredLifer

[pinotlover]

Raw numbers don’t mean a lot. It’s who is getting the shots that matters. The Philippines could decide to use 1/2 of 1 day’s supply to vaccinate those going to cruise ships that can then send home money to care for their families. That money is then recirculated in their economy. We don’t know the Plan.
 

Turkey, which has largely been receiving the Chinese vaccine, stated early that their plan was to first vaccinate the two largest metropolitan areas and the industrial and tourist areas so to revive their economy. Those sheep herders on their eastern high plains must not be high on their priority list regardless of age or morbidity. What we don’t know is the vaccination rates in their targeted areas. That is what will determine the  return of tourism, not overall rates.

[LHT28]

Maybe the cruise lines will buy the vaccines for the crew 

then add the cost  to future cruises 🤔

 

They probably do not want to have unvaccinated crew  dealing with pax 😷

JMO