VISITING PORTS - ONLY ORGANIZED COACH TRIPS

[Bav]

If there is only organized coach trips and you are not able to do your own thing, would you not think that the cruise you booked is not the cruise as advertised and would therefore be able to cancel and get a FCC ?   and not forfeit your deposit ?    I appreciate that if a port is cancelled whilst on the cruise that is at the prerogative of the  captain.

[No pager thank you]

14 minutes ago, Bav said:

If there is only organized coach trips and you are not able to do your own thing, would you not think that the cruise you booked is not the cruise as advertised and would therefore be able to cancel and get a FCC ?   and not forfeit your deposit ?    I appreciate that if a port is cancelled whilst on the cruise that is at the prerogative of the  captain.

Yes, personally I would.  However, this provision, along with all others linked to Covid-19 are not considered to be a major change to the holiday, therefore no entitlement to your cash back exists - assuming that the cruise departs.  This has been debated before but there is no pushback to the stance being taken by the company.

 

The company can refer to either the restrictions imposed either by the UK government, or those of the visiting port, which is outside of its control.  Technically, what is being "purchased" is overnight, full board, accommodation on the given ship.

 

There has been some talk (little actual evidence as of yet) of cruise excursion costs being reduced, as and when this becomes a practical reality.

 

The only point I would make is that you can, at the present time, and to the best of my knowledge, still move your cruise deposit to any currently on sale, without penalty.  Clearly the further away you move the booking, the less likely it is that will be organised excursions only.  Hope this helps you.

[Bav]

Thank you for your concise breakdown,   Very much appreciated.  I think your explanation seems on the mark  Will wait to see if cruise goes ahead.

Thank you once more.

[Windsurfboy]

I think it depends on when you bought the cruise. Clearly  anyone opting for the round UK cruises bought recently knew what they where letting themselves in for.

 

If someone bought a normal cruise for say winter or next year, then I'd agree it's a major  change. You may have to use small claims if really want money back. But as has been said you can move deposit.  However as most cruises are nearly sold out prices can be high if you move now. Wait till the next tranche of cruises come out around June and get better launch prices before moving deposit. 

[tring]

1 hour ago, Windsurfboy said:

Wait till the next tranche of cruises come out around June and get better launch prices before moving deposit. 

 

Not so sure about June!  Winter 2022/23 were announced last week to go on sale later this month.  Cruises for the following summer normally go on sale in the autumn - October or thereabouts.  Yes P&O cruises are normally cheaper at launch and some prices can even start rising within an hour or so of them going on general sale.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by tring

[Harry Peterson]

11 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

I think it depends on when you bought the cruise. Clearly  anyone opting for the round UK cruises bought recently knew what they where letting themselves in for.

 

If someone bought a normal cruise for say winter or next year, then I'd agree it's a major  change. You may have to use small claims if really want money back. But as has been said you can move deposit.  However as most cruises are nearly sold out prices can be high if you move now. Wait till the next tranche of cruises come out around June and get better launch prices before moving deposit. 

Absolutely. It all depends on what was being offered at the time of booking, how that compares with what’s actually provided, and the terms and conditions at the time of booking. These have changed from time to time, but it’s only those at the time of booking that count.

 

The words “significant alteration” are the words used in most, possibly all, of the sets of terms and conditions. If the change amounts to that, you have far more rights to refunds or compensation than you would otherwise.

 

P&O will always argue that changes made don’t amount to significant alterations. This may or may not be, depending on when you booked, but it could well be.

 

The only way to get anywhere with P&O though is usually to make it very plain that you will take the matter to court, and that you’re capable of doing so. If you have a good case, they’re then likely to offer to settle, well before any hearing, with a non disclosure agreement. You get what you want, and they get no publicity, so it can’t be used as a precedent by other passengers.

 

 

[tring]

4 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

Absolutely. It all depends on what was being offered at the time of booking, how that compares with what’s actually provided, and the terms and conditions at the time of booking. These have changed from time to time, but it’s only those at the time of booking that count.

 

The words “significant alteration” are the words used in most, possibly all, of the sets of terms and conditions. If the change amounts to that, you have far more rights to refunds or compensation than you would otherwise.

 

P&O will always argue that changes made don’t amount to significant alterations. This may or may not be, depending on when you booked, but it could well be.

 

The only way to get anywhere with P&O though is usually to make it very plain that you will take the matter to court, and that you’re capable of doing so. If you have a good case, they’re then likely to offer to settle, well before any hearing, with a non disclosure agreement. You get what you want, and they get no publicity, so it can’t be used as a precedent by other passengers.

 

 

 

Though normally the case, the situation is by no means legally clear cut in this situation, largely because it is not P&O who are making the changes, but the gov and the ports of call, so someone could well loose out by taking a case to the small claims court.  A chance to move your money is probably the best you can hope to get, though I would hope P&O will look favourably at anyone who cannot benefit from moving their money if they cannot continue to cruise because of health issues or being unable to secure travel insurance for a future cruise.

 

Small claims court cases do not set precedent.

[Harry Peterson]

45 minutes ago, tring said:

 

Though normally the case, the situation is by no means legally clear cut in this situation, largely because it is not P&O who are making the changes, but the gov and the ports of call, so someone could well loose out by taking a case to the small claims court.  A chance to move your money is probably the best you can hope to get, though I would hope P&O will look favourably at anyone who cannot benefit from moving their money if they cannot continue to cruise because of health issues or being unable to secure travel insurance for a future cruise.

 

Small claims court cases do not set precedent.

Nothing at all is clear without looking at the terms and conditions in place at the time of booking.  But in terms of contract law, it's P&O making the changes since they're one of the two contracting parties.  If their T&C allow them to, they can use extraneous circumstances as a get out clause, which is why it's so important to look at those terms.  If not, they just have to take the hit, though very few customers will take the matter far enough.

 

Small claims procedures certainly don't set precedents, I agree, but the publicity surrounding them tends to in practical, rather than legal, terms.  Likewise agreements reached with individual customers who then publicise the matter online - which is why they're so fond of non-disclosure agreements.

 

Obviously, you wouldn't take a case through the online small claims procedure unless you were very sure of the facts, and the relevant law, but even when the situation is clear cut, P&O will frequently try to persuade you that it isn't.

 

Perseverance, and a knowledge of the legal principles,  will usually get you what you want, but usually via a NDA.

[pete14]

19 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

Nothing at all is clear without looking at the terms and conditions in place at the time of booking.  But in terms of contract law, it's P&O making the changes since they're one of the two contracting parties.  If their T&C allow them to, they can use extraneous circumstances as a get out clause, which is why it's so important to look at those terms.  If not, they just have to take the hit, though very few customers will take the matter far enough.

 

Small claims procedures certainly don't set precedents, I agree, but the publicity surrounding them tends to in practical, rather than legal, terms.  Likewise agreements reached with individual customers who then publicise the matter online - which is why they're so fond of non-disclosure agreements.

 

Obviously, you wouldn't take a case through the online small claims procedure unless you were very sure of the facts, and the relevant law, but even when the situation is clear cut, P&O will frequently try to persuade you that it isn't.

 

Perseverance, and a knowledge of the legal principles,  will usually get you what you want, but usually via a NDA.

It seems a bit pointless getting into a bit of a lather about this at this stage when it is all ifs, buts, and maybes because no P&O cruise being sold has any port stops until September. By the time the balance is due to P&O, (maybe not to an agent), there will probably be greater clarity.

[ScratchTheRat]

19 hours ago, Bav said:

If there is only organized coach trips and you are not able to do your own thing, would you not think that the cruise you booked is not the cruise as advertised and would therefore be able to cancel and get a FCC ?   and not forfeit your deposit ?    I appreciate that if a port is cancelled whilst on the cruise that is at the prerogative of the  captain.

Most of the terms and conditions I've seen when I've booked cruises detail that ports and itineraries are subject to change.

 

So you agree on booking that they can remove, change or alter any port or itinerary, including cancelling all of them.

 

So although I can understand the frustration of not being able to go ashore, you've agreed to those terms on booking.

[Bav]

Fair point, thankyou.

[ScratchTheRat]

1 minute ago, Bav said:

Fair point, thankyou.

That's not me being rude by the way. I totally understand it's a pain in the butt!

[tring]

53 minutes ago, ScratchTheRat said:

Most of the terms and conditions I've seen when I've booked cruises detail that ports and itineraries are subject to change.

 

So you agree on booking that they can remove, change or alter any port or itinerary, including cancelling all of them.

 

So although I can understand the frustration of not being able to go ashore, you've agreed to those terms on booking.

 

Not so.  They could make some changes but not just take you off to somewhere else.  I understand, perhaps they could be allowed to change, perhaps 20%  of the ports, but not more or to alter a very important part of a cruise.  There is also legal protection for packages which cannot be overriden by any T&C's that appear to say they can.

 

Harry is correct that the T&C's depend on what is in place when you book, so always worth keeping a printed copy of those with your booking details and will mean the situation for some individuals will be different to others who have booked since the pandemic arose and especially since changes have been publicised.  Also a fair bit in what he said about fighting a case with P&O if you know what you are doing in many circumstances.  

 

However as I said, the situation here is not clear cut, even for those who would be perfectly competent and know what they are doing.  That is the opinion of someone who has spent his working life in consumer protection, particularly the legal side.  His view is that while it may be possible to claim a refund through a small claims court (or get P&O to cave in without going that far), it would depend to a certain extent on just what the judge declares on the day. Though some people would feel it was worth trying to fight it and may succeed, in most cases it is not worth the hassle and potential extra loss.

 

There are restrictions on land now, both here and abroad which mimic a number of the restrictions proposed, including those which have become a part of everyday life for us.  In Spain you even have to wear a mask when walking in the open air along a public street for instance.  It would be totally unreasonable though for P&O to insist people still go on a cruise under the proposed restrictions if they do not wish to (especially if they booked pre-covid or before the proposed changes became public), so a transfer to a later cruise or FCC is a very valid request and, as I understand it, P&O along with other cruise companies are happy to provide that.

Edited April 14, 2021 by tring

[majortom10]

3 hours ago, ScratchTheRat said:

Most of the terms and conditions I've seen when I've booked cruises detail that ports and itineraries are subject to change.

 

So you agree on booking that they can remove, change or alter any port or itinerary, including cancelling all of them.

 

So although I can understand the frustration of not being able to go ashore, you've agreed to those terms on booking.

Whilst there is some truth in what you say it all depends on what you call a minor change or a major change that used to be used in past brochures. We had a cruise reduced by 2nts from 16nts to 14nts due to early than expected ship refit. They cancelled one port of call completely and every other port were still the same but every one was on a different day. P&O initially classed this as a "minor" change and all they offered was the price of the 2nt reduction given to you as OBC. When pushed and pushed and threatened with legal action that it was classified as a "major" change they changed thier minds and offered a full refund of all monies paid if cancelled and for the 2nts reduction if you still cruised they agreed to give it you in cash refund instead of OBC. I have noticed from a quick read of P&Os new brochure received yesterday unless I have missed it they have removed "minor" "major" and now use the word "significant" but again who decides what is "significant".

[tring]

45 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

Whilst there is some truth in what you say it all depends on what you call a minor change or a major change that used to be used in past brochures. We had a cruise reduced by 2nts from 16nts to 14nts due to early than expected ship refit. They cancelled one port of call completely and every other port were still the same but every one was on a different day. P&O initially classed this as a "minor" change and all they offered was the price of the 2nt reduction given to you as OBC. When pushed and pushed and threatened with legal action that it was classified as a "major" change they changed thier minds and offered a full refund of all monies paid if cancelled and for the 2nts reduction if you still cruised they agreed to give it you in cash refund instead of OBC. I have noticed from a quick read of P&Os new brochure received yesterday unless I have missed it they have removed "minor" "major" and now use the word "significant" but again who decides what is "significant".

 

Oh yes, interesting try by P&O re change in cruise length, it indeed is surprising how far companies think they can go.

 

I have noticed that the term major and minor changes are still being talked about by people who think they know what they are talking about, but are not up to date with the legislation which was changed in 2018.  The new regulations allow a change which is "not significant", so a very small leeway is allowable.  Hence P&O have adjusted their T&C's to follow that.  To an extent It is also personal to the individual, depending upon the reason why they booked the cruise, i.e. what is "not significant" to one person may not be so for someone else.

[jeanlyon]

it's one of the reasons we have moved our October cruise to April 2022, particularly as it's Greek islands, because not being able to go ashore independently would ruin it for us, although we would still go.  I can't see what sort of excursion they would do in Santorini for instance?

[Bav]

On 4/14/2021 at 1:50 PM, ScratchTheRat said:

That's not me being rude by the way. I totally understand it's a pain in the butt!

no offence taken....have a good day