I'm beginning to think the CDC may very well lose the lawsuit that Florida initiated

[songbird1329]

23 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

The sticking point as I see it is the contractual shoreside facilities agreements.  The government has already stated they are not mandating vaccine passports.  

can you explain this further, which government is not mandating vaccine passports?  

[livingonthebeach]

4 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

can you explain this further, which government is not mandating vaccine passports?  

 

The US federal government:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-06/white-house-says-u-s-won-t-issue-vaccine-passports

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/carnival-cruise-line-active-discussions-cdc-return-sailing-july-n1267707

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, songbird1329 said:

 

 

 

The court hopes the parties work it out for themselves and he doesn't have to make a ruling.  

That is generally what judges try to do in these type of disputes.

[songbird1329]

There’s a huge difference between “we aren’t creating vaccine passports” and “the CDC requires proof of a vaccine to board a cruise ship.”

 

The CDC issued those nice little cards with your name, date of birth and the vaccines you received.  That’s proof of a vaccine.

 

Here in NY the state maintains a database of everyone who was vaccinated.  You download the app to your phone, plug in your name and date of birth, and the state verifies that you’re vaccinated.  That’s a “vaccine passport”.  You use it to get into Citi Field, Madison Square Garden and even (shudder) Yankee Stadium.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by songbird1329

[songbird1329]

 

On 5/17/2021 at 9:12 PM, 4774Papa said:

4 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

That is generally what judges try to do in these type of disputes.

 

Not in my experience.  We’re usually sent out to mediation after our motion to dismiss has been denied and we’ve done some discovery.  We’re not usually sent out do that the judge can avoid deciding our motion ...

Edited May 19, 2021 by songbird1329

[navybankerteacher]

14 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

 

 

Not in my experience.  We’re usually sent out to mediation after our motion to dismiss has been denied and we’ve done some discovery.  We’re not usually sent out do that the judge can avoid deciding our motion ...

Of course the judge is unlikely to require mediation if a motion to dismiss were pending — why waste anyone’s time on a matter which is not proceeding?   Once it looks like the matter is proceeding, it is only common sense to see if the parties can agree on a resolution rather than have one imposed.

[capriccio]

According to a Sun Sentinel article published an hour ago (https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-florida-cdc-suit-goes-to-mediator-20210519-yu5wgqmcpnaetileu6ga25nuqm-story.html?utm_source=onesignal&utm_medium=notification&utm_campaign=2021-05-18-Suit-against-CD) Judge refers Florida’s cruise line suit against CDC to mediator.

 

Highlights:

• A Tampa federal judge overseeing the state’s civil case against the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention referred the matter to a mediator Tuesday with instructions to hear the positions of both sides before June 1.
• Recap of last weeks hearing:  Lawyers from the Florida attorney general’s office argued the agency overstepped its authority by imposing a multi-step process for cruise lines to safely resume operating from U.S. ports after more than year of no service...Justice Department lawyers countered that the state has no authority to dictate when and where the companies can resume service. In court papers, government lawyers also said the state had allowed an entire year to pass without taking any action.
• The judge also allowed the American Society of Travel Advisors, a Washington-based trade group of travel agents, to file a friend of the court brief to support the state’s argument about economic damages suffered by the industry and communities outside Florida.

[songbird1329]

8 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course the judge is unlikely to require mediation if a motion to dismiss were pending — why waste anyone’s time on a matter which is not proceeding?   Once it looks like the matter is proceeding, it is only common sense to see if the parties can agree on a resolution rather than have one imposed.

 

On a motion to dismiss, the court is asked to determine if the pleadings state a cause of action.  If there’s no cognizable claim, the motion is granted.

 

In response to the motion for a preliminary injunction, the CDC essentially argued that the state of Florida does not have a cognizable claim.  They didn’t actually file a motion to dismiss, but that’s the argument they raised.

 

That’s why the mediation order is a bit unusual.

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, songbird1329 said:

 

 

Not in my experience.  We’re usually sent out to mediation after our motion to dismiss has been denied and we’ve done some discovery.  We’re not usually sent out do that the judge can avoid deciding our motion ...

I did not mean the judge was trying to avoid making a decision; I meant that judges often would rather have the parties themselves come to an agreement by working things out during mediation.

[navybankerteacher]

14 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

I did not mean the judge was trying to avoid making a decision; I meant that judges often would rather have the parties themselves come to an agreement by working things out during mediation.

Which is obviously to be preferred over having a third party (the judge) make a decision for the parties actually involved.

[idraconis]

IMO I think the judge took the easy and only way out. If the judge ruled for the state the CDC (the Cruise Denying Clowns) would have appealed and would jumped into the rabbit hole. From what I've seen from the cruise industry, is that their recommendations meet or excides the CDC's. Mediation is not going to work. One side is doing all the work and talking, the other has all the power. And the storm toppers aren't going budge an inch. At the cost lost revenue for industry, in the billion. The lost revenue for the states, in the billions. And not to mention the thousands of lost jobs, people lives that that the clown show destroyed. Despicable. 

[songbird1329]

Well, since the CDC and the cruise lines seem to be working things out ...

 

The real issue isn’t cruising from US ports, it’s cruising from Florida ports.

 

The CDC’s line in the sand seems to be vaccines, everything else is negotiable.

 

So the real issue is this:  will Florida willingly exempt the cruise lines from its law banning companies from requesting proof of a vaccine?

 

clearly when the judge sent the parties to the suit to mediation, he was aware that the cruise lines were already in serious negotiations with the CDC,

 

Florida’s argument is that the Conditional Sail Order is arbitrary, capricious and overreach by a federal agency.  I don’t see how Florida wins that argument when the cruise lines and the CDC have worked out a deal that allows the cruise lines to sail.  And he’s got no bargaining power, the ships will simply go elsewhere rather than get caught up in a fight between the CDC and Florida if they can simply move to other US ports.

 

DeSantis has a lot to lose.

[SelectSys]

7 hours ago, idraconis said:

One side is doing all the work and talking, the other has all the power.

Hence the old saying, "you can't fight city hall!"  Taking on the Feds takes it to a whole new level.  

[SelectSys]

22 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

And he’s got no bargaining power, the ships will simply go elsewhere rather than get caught up in a fight between the CDC and Florida if they can simply move to other US ports.

 

DeSantis has a lot to lose.

I don't think the lines are moving out.  Florida is the best natural location for warm water cruising in the US.  Texas and Louisiana are really distant second choice locations in my opinion.  I guess Charleston and Savannah could create other options.  Going much further to the north and you start having weather/time issues.  California doesn't offer enough variety and really the water isn't nearly as nice on the Pacific side.

 

Bottom line - I don't see Florida hindering anything once cruises get rolling again.  All of this will pass and be mute before too long.  The president and his allies at the CDC will get to claim victory as will De Santis.  If we have learned anything, COVID has both political and health dimensions that influence policy and the timing of those policies.

Edited May 19, 2021 by SelectSys

[JRG]

21 hours ago, capriccio said:

Highlights:

• A Tampa federal judge overseeing the state’s civil case against the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention referred the matter to a mediator Tuesday with instructions to hear the positions of both sides before June 1.
• Recap of last weeks hearing:  Lawyers from the Florida attorney general’s office argued the agency overstepped its authority by imposing a multi-step process for cruise lines to safely resume operating from U.S. ports after more than year of no service...Justice Department lawyers countered that the state has no authority to dictate when and where the companies can resume service. In court papers, government lawyers also said the state had allowed an entire year to pass without taking any action.
• The judge also allowed the American Society of Travel Advisors, a Washington-based trade group of travel agents, to file a friend of the court brief to support the state’s argument about economic damages suffered by the industry and communities outside Florida.

 

Enter The Special Interest Group?    Just Speculating.

 

But The American Society of Travel Advisors (Agents).

 

What is a friend of the court brief anyway?

 

Are they the other injured parties that have standing?   

 

Is it class action if all the TA's put in a claim?

 

Will the Arbitrator pass the decision on to Judge Judy?

 

More questions than answers here.

 

 

 

 

 

[songbird1329]

3 hours ago, JRG said:

 

Enter The Special Interest Group?    Just Speculating.

 

But The American Society of Travel Advisors (Agents).

 

What is a friend of the court brief anyway?

 

Are they the other injured parties that have standing?   

 

Is it class action if all the TA's put in a claim?

 

Will the Arbitrator pass the decision on to Judge Judy?

 

More questions than answers here.

 

 

 

 

 

Amicus curiae, friend of the court.  An individual or group that cannot be a party to the suit but are concerned with the outcome of the case.  As an amicus, you file a brief and give the court your take on the matter.

 

The court is not required to consider amicus briefs, but the courts will usually read them.

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, JRG said:

 

Enter The Special Interest Group?    Just Speculating.

 

But The American Society of Travel Advisors (Agents).

 

What is a friend of the court brief anyway?

 

Are they the other injured parties that have standing?   

 

Is it class action if all the TA's put in a claim?

 

Will the Arbitrator pass the decision on to Judge Judy?

 

More questions than answers here.

 

 

 

 

 

It was passed on to a mediator,  not an arbitrator. There is a HUGE difference. A mediator attempts to get the parties involved to come to an agreement. An arbitrator makes a binding decision.

[JRG]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

It was passed on to a mediator,  not an arbitrator. There is a HUGE difference. A mediator attempts to get the parties involved to come to an agreement. An arbitrator makes a binding decision.

 

ok, if you say so....

Edited May 20, 2021 by JRG
courtesy edit

[CruiserBruce]

24 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

ok, if you say so....

@ontheweb is correct. Brother in law is a mediator/arbiter. 

[JRG]

1 minute ago, CruiserBruce said:

@ontheweb is correct. Brother in law is a mediator/arbiter. 

 

Somebody needs to understand there are two types of arbitration.  Binding and Non-Binding.

 

There is a HUMONGUOUS difference between binding and non-binding.

 

If you are trying to make the point that they are using a mediator and I used the word arbitrator then you can ask me if I made a mistake and it looks like I did.   

 

Ship Happens.

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

@ontheweb is correct. Brother in law is a mediator/arbiter. 

I have a brother who was a mediator until he retired actually just last week.

[songbird1329]

Big difference between mediation and arbitration.  Arbitration puts the resolution of the claim in the hands of a third party, the arbitrator(s).  A mediator tries to facilitate a settlement between the parties.  
 

I’ve used mediators to educate adversaries on the weaknesses in their case.

[JRG]

25 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

Big difference between mediation and arbitration.  Arbitration puts the resolution of the claim in the hands of a third party, the arbitrator(s).  A mediator tries to facilitate a settlement between the parties.  
 

I’ve used mediators to educate adversaries on the weaknesses in their case.

 

May I ask if you have ever used the doctrine of "substance over form" in your mediations,  given the latitude for interpretation of the law that mediation provides?

 

 

[ldubs]

13 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

@ontheweb is correct. Brother in law is a mediator/arbiter. 

 

11 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I have a brother who was a mediator until he retired actually just last week.

 

OMG!  OnTheWeb's brother is married to CruiserBruce's sister!  Who woulda thought!  😄😄

[CruiserBruce]

Just now, ldubs said:

 

 

OMG!  OnTheWeb's brother is married to CruiserBruce's sister!  Who woulda thought!  😄😄

Ha ha!....it would have to be married to my wife's sister!