I'm beginning to think the CDC may very well lose the lawsuit that Florida initiated

[Host Jazzbeau]

4 hours ago, bigrednole said:

It will all come out this week in a Federal court. First off, I believe the CDC operates in an imperfect world where true facts are based on a lot of guess work, it is not exact science. However, grossly using that data almost maliciously is wrong at any level.

 

This is gross negligence on their part and need to be held accountable. This is like saying we only pay 3% in taxes but the Federal and State governments take 30%.

Sorry, 'true facts' can't be based on guess work.  Orwellian re-definition here.

[rkacruiser]

21 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, at the end of the day, when covid is in the past and the fat lady has sung, it will be interesting to compare the results.  I am inclined to think that states which are considering incentives to people who immunize will do better than those which actively try to stop private enterprises from requiring immunization.

 

😀 X  a multiple times!  Will I live long enough to learn what the final historical results tell us?  

[BruceMuzz]

Here in Japan we have 6 x the population of Florida (126 Million).

Social Distancing in places like Tokyo is next to impossible. There just is not enough space for so many people (42 million).

All businesses have remained open, but have reduced hours.

The Japanese Government has compensated those businesses so that nobody loses their job and the companies do not fail.

EVERYONE in Japan wears masks ALWAYS. I even put on a mask to accept a delivery at my front door.

ALL businesses have temperature checking cameras - with an attendant - at every entrance. If your temperature is higher than 37.5c - no admittance.

If you do not have a mask, properly worn, no admittance.

So far, only medical personnel have been vaccinated. The general population will begin to receive vaccines this week.

Note that Japan has the oldest average population on Earth.

No foreigners are allowed to enter the country for any reason.

Anyone flying anywhere in Japan, or into / out of Japan must have a negative COVID test.

Anyone flying into Japan must have negative COVID tests before and after the flight, cannot use public transit for 14 days, must quarantine at home for 14 days, and must have a tracking App on their smartphone. Additionally, Japanese Government Doctors telephone them every day for 14 days to get updates on temperatures and general health.

Four Japanese Cruise Ships have been making Japanese Domestic cruises all through the Pandemic - with Japanese residents only. Masks and negative PCR tests required.

So far, of the 10s of thousands of Japanese Cruise passengers on those cruises, only 1 passenger has tested positive for COVID.

 

With 600% of Florida’s population, living in very close proximity, Japan has only 25% of the reported cases and only 30% of the reported deaths, compared to Florida.

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

Here in Japan we have 6 x the population of Florida (126 Million).

Social Distancing in places like Tokyo is next to impossible. There just is not enough space for so many people (42 million).

All businesses have remained open, but have reduced hours.

The Japanese Government has compensated those businesses so that nobody loses their job and the companies do not fail.

EVERYONE in Japan wears masks ALWAYS. I even put on a mask to accept a delivery at my front door.

ALL businesses have temperature checking cameras - with an attendant - at every entrance. If your temperature is higher than 37.5c - no admittance.

If you do not have a mask, properly worn, no admittance.

So far, only medical personnel have been vaccinated. The general population will begin to receive vaccines this week.

Note that Japan has the oldest average population on Earth.

No foreigners are allowed to enter the country for any reason.

Anyone flying anywhere in Japan, or into / out of Japan must have a negative COVID test.

Anyone flying into Japan must have negative COVID tests before and after the flight, cannot use public transit for 14 days, must quarantine at home for 14 days, and must have a tracking App on their smarIntertphone. Additionally, Japanese Government Doctors telephone them every day for 14 days to get updates on temperatures and general health.

Four Japanese Cruise Ships have been making Japanese Domestic cruises all through the Pandemic - with Japanese residents only. Masks and negative PCR tests required.

So far, of the 10s of thousands of Japanese Cruise passengers on those cruises, only 1 passenger has tested positive for COVID.

 

With 600% of Florida’s population, living in very close proximity, Japan has only 25% of the reported cases and only 30% of the reported deaths, compared to Florida.

Interesting facts about how masks work.

 

But, they are going to allow foreigners in soon as the Summer Olympics postponed from last year are now soon. I understand that there will not be spectators, but there are athletes from all over the world.

[BruceMuzz]

Foreign athletes are allowed - but only with vaccinations, limited movement from the Olympic Village, and daily COVID tests.

Any violations result in deportation.

No foreign spectators are allowed.

[happy cruzer]

Thanks for reporting on Japan's efforts.  Even in Japan there are those that are not happy with their government's response.  There are complaints that the vaccines are sitting in the freezer.  And money is being spent on the Olympics vs. the Japanese people who have experienced financial impact from the pandemic.

 

It is a bit interesting that there are any cases of Covid with the measures that are being taken in Japan.  Do they trace where the cases are coming from?

 

Any solution probably needs to assume there will be cases and how to handle them; even on a cruise ship.

[navybankerteacher]

19 hours ago, bigrednole said:

It will all come out this week in a Federal court. First off, I believe the CDC operates in an imperfect world where true facts are based on a lot of guess work, it is not exact science. However, grossly using that data almost maliciously is wrong at any level.

 

This is gross negligence on their part and need to be held accountable. This is like saying we only pay 3% in taxes but the Federal and State governments take 30%.

Calling something a “fact” is claiming that it is true.  Unless you can explain what a false fact is, you probably should not talk about “true facts”.

 

 

[SelectSys]

18 hours ago, BruceMuzz said:

Here in Japan

You do know that Japan is completely different than Florida and the US generally?  As such, comparisons between the two countries aren't really valid.  However, I can see some natural Japanese advantages in fighting the pandemic for sure including cultural unity and values, a homogenous population, closed borders, physical separation by being an island nation, etc. 

 

It's not a surprise that Japan has faired so well.  It seems most island nations have done well.  It's just so much easier to control movement of peoples.  Hawaii and Puerto Rico (both island areas) are number 1 and 3 in the US in terms of COVID control.  How much is geography and how much is culture reminds me of the whole nature vs nurture argument regarding children.

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by SelectSys

[dogs4fun]

It appears that Alaska cruises on large ships are a possibility this summer. You can read about the Alaska Tourism Recovery Act here:

https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/us-senate-approves-act-permitting-large-ships-to-cruise-to-alaska

 

[songbird1329]

No decision yet in the preliminary injunction, but I heard oral argument did not go well for the attorneys for Florida.

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, songbird1329 said:

No decision yet in the preliminary injunction, but I heard oral argument did not go well for the attorneys for Florida.

Keep us posted.

[songbird1329]

Will do.

[docruth]

 

16 hours ago, songbird1329 said:

No decision yet in the preliminary injunction, but I heard oral argument did not go well for the attorneys for Florida.

Songbird,

 

This is merely a guess on my part. However, I find it difficult to believe that the courts would decide an issue like this in any way that might lessen the CDC’s ability to put regulations into immediate effect to protect the health of US citizens. That is not to say whether those regulations make any sense, I’ll stay out of that, but I would like legal clarification of the CDC (et al) regulatory powers to mandate for the good of public health.

 

If this outbreak were antibiotic-resistant Tuberculosis or Pneumonia, or any of the other extremely contagious air or water transmitted diseases, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. As it is Covid, we still don’t know what we don’t know about this disease. So, legally inhibiting the CDC, or the state or federal government, in their ability to mandate would be very problematic as a precedent.

Sailing has begun, so soon we will have some information about how effective the procedures are in preventing an outbreak aboard. Hopefully, we won’t have ships sailing around the world trying to find a port that will accept them, again! Time will tell. As I said in a previous post. I’m waiting to see how the Fall translants go before I book anything new. All of our future cruises have been cancelled by the lines, so everything is on hold for us until there’s more clarity.

 

Cheers,

 

Doc Ruth

Edited May 18, 2021 by docruth

[songbird1329]

So today the court ordered the State of Florida and the Department of Health and Human Services (which enforces the CDC regulations) into mediation.  The parties must proceed to mediation by June 1, and the mediator must report on the results within two days after the mediation takes place.

 

That means the court has not ruled on the motion for a preliminary injunction and will not rule on the motion until sometime in June.  That means the Conditional Sail Order remains in effect.

 

So now the cruise lines are all negotiation with the CDC and Florida will have to attempt to negotiate with the CDC,

 

So, my interpretation....the court did not want to deny the motion outright but hopes the CDC and the cruise lines and Florida all work things out for themselves before he has to rule on the motion. 

[docruth]

12 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

So today the court ordered the State of Florida and the Department of Health and Human Services (which enforces the CDC regulations) into mediation.  The parties must proceed to mediation by June 1, and the mediator must report on the results within two days after the mediation takes place.

 

That means the court has not ruled on the motion for a preliminary injunction and will not rule on the motion until sometime in June.  That means the Conditional Sail Order remains in effect.

Songbird,

 

Oh no, no TRO. 🙄 

 

Not unexpected, Thanks for keeping up with the situation and posting …

 

Doc Ruth

[CruiserBruce]

3 minutes ago, docruth said:

Songbird,

 

Oh no, no TRO. 🙄 

 

Not unexpected, Thanks for keeping up with the situation and posting …

 

Doc Ruth

In the short term, no TRO. If the two parties can't resolve it, its back to the Judge, for whatever ruling he might take.

[songbird1329]

10 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Keep us posted.

 

1 hour ago, livingonthebeach said:

The fact that Judge Merryday ordered mediation today for the Florida v CDC parties, is a good sign for Florida. 

 

19 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

I said it was promising -- not a win.  The judge did not rule to keep the CSO either so we'll see. 

 

4 minutes ago, docruth said:

Songbird,

 

Oh no, no TRO. 🙄 

 

Not unexpected, Thanks for keeping up with the situation and posting …

 

Doc Ruth

The court hopes the parties work it out for themselves and he doesn't have to make a ruling.  

[songbird1329]

Just now, CruiserBruce said:

In the short term, no TRO. If the two parties can't resolve it, its back to the Judge, for whatever ruling he might take.

And by the time His Honor rules the matter will be moot, because the cruise lines will have effectuated whatever rules the CDC wants.

[livingonthebeach]

7 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

And by the time His Honor rules the matter will be moot, because the cruise lines will have effectuated whatever rules the CDC wants.

 

It's not outside the realm of possibility that an agreement, acceptable to both, is made through the mediation process. 

[songbird1329]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

It's not outside the realm of possibility that an agreement, acceptable to both, is made through the mediation process. 

true, but I am trying to figure out what kind of bargaining power Florida really has.

 

DeSantis says he wants the ships to sail without restriction, but what he really wants is the ability to prevent them from asking if passengers have been vaccinated.  I don't see the CDC agreeing to that.  There may be other points they can agree on, but I don't see a compromise on that issue.

[CruiserBruce]

4 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

It's not outside the realm of possibility that an agreement, acceptable to both, is made through the mediation process. 

I would bet an agreement like this is possible...Florida agrees to modify the EO/law stopping checking vaccine status to allow cruise lines to do 100% vaccinated cruises, CDC agrees to allow cruises. As mentioned,  most of the complicating issues of the CSO will have been mitigated by then. Florida drops suit, and CDC retains powers to regulate cruising.

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, songbird1329 said:

true, but I am trying to figure out what kind of bargaining power Florida really has.

 

DeSantis says he wants the ships to sail without restriction, but what he really wants is the ability to prevent them from asking if passengers have been vaccinated.  I don't see the CDC agreeing to that.  There may be other points they can agree on, but I don't see a compromise on that issue.

 

The sticking point as I see it is the contractual shoreside facilities agreements.  The government has already stated they are not mandating vaccine passports.  

[songbird1329]

Proximity bands, masks by the pool, up and down stairways, all negotiable.  But I think the CDC's red line is vaccines.  

 

You've got Carnival desperate to avoid a vaccine mandate if the CDC consents and Norwegian threatening to pull its ships if Florida won't allow them to ask passengers for proof of a vaccine.  

 

I'd be surprised if it can be resolved.

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

I would bet an agreement like this is possible...Florida agrees to modify the EO/law stopping checking vaccine status to allow cruise lines to do 100% vaccinated cruises, CDC agrees to allow cruises. As mentioned,  most of the complicating issues of the CSO will have been mitigated by then. Florida drops suit, and CDC retains powers to regulate cruising.

 

Yes, an agreement is possible and I hope whatever they agree upon brings us closer to cruising soon.

[songbird1329]

The most likely scenario?

 

Proof of vaccination is the sticking point, and I don't see the CDC giving in.  If DeSantis doesn't relent, the ships will go elsewhere.  

 

There isn't time to resolve the issue in court before the summer sailing season.