Crew Incentives

[donaldsc]

On 6/3/2021 at 3:28 AM, chengkp75 said:

The fault is in the logic of thinking of this money as "gratuities" or "tips", which it is not, as even Princess' description explains.  It is a crew "incentive", meaning it is a means of incentivizing the entire pool of employees to all perform their duties to the highest level, or all will suffer.  Whether or not the crew get less of the DSC each, due to a larger pool, there is a minimum wage that the crew member gets, even if everyone on the ship removes their DSC completely.  Also, if the DSC portion, per crew member, goes down, does this mean the contracted wage has gone down for all jobs, or does this mean the "fixed" portion of the crews' wage has gone up slightly to make up for the lowered DSC portion?  Will the crew sign on for a lesser wage?  Do you ask how the fare you pay for the cruise is divided among the crew?  I don't understand the fixation of how the DSC is divided.  Consider it a fixed portion of the cruise cost and be done with it.  It is not a "gratuity" or "tip" for good service, it is a "service charge" for the cruise line having provided you a service.  If you feel the cruise line has failed to provide adequate service, remove or amend the DSC.  

 

That is their job - to provide me a good service.  I object to the idea that it is a separate but required line item in my cruise cost.  Just give up the charade and increase the base price of the cruise.  I realize that I am just whistling in the wind and in the end the total cost of the cruise will be the same whether they raise the cruise cost or have me pay a crew incentive but at least they can be honest with me with the pricing.  

 

There are on shore restaurants in the United States that have tried this stunt by eliminating tipping and rolling the tip cost into the listed menu price for the meal.  Neither restaurant staff or the patrons have liked the idea and most restaurants have dropped the idea.  I realize that tipping is not part of the culture in many countries but like it or not, that it the way it is in the USA.

 

One of the thread respondents suggested that if we don't like it we should switch cruise lines to one that doesn't charge "crew incentives".  We have done that but not for that reason.  The base cruise price is more than on Princess but I like the cruising experience more or perhaps I should say that for many reasons I have come to not like the cruising experience on any of the Princess ships.  All of the Princess ships are oversized monstrosities.  

 

DON

Edited June 4, 2021 by donaldsc

[ontheweb]

13 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

That is their job - to provide me a good service.  I object to the idea that it is a separate but required line item in my cruise cost.  Just give up the charade and increase the base price of the cruise.  I realize that I am just whistling in the wind and in the end the total cost of the cruise will be the same whether they raise the cruise cost or have me pay a crew incentive but at least they can be honest with me with the pricing.  

 

There is one thing you probably have not thought of. As the price will be higher, your travel insurance might be higher if you cross one of their monetary borders for pricing. The tips you pay on the ship are not included in that price, and are not needed for insurance as if you end up not on the cruise you are not paying the tips.

[cruzsnooze]

5 hours ago, skynight said:

 

Lets assume that in the past entertainment department staff did not receive bonuses from the pool. Maybe Princess wants to now include them. Nothing wrong with that change of direction.

I do not think that actual guest performers, musicians such as a Crooner's piano player, guitar/singer and music groups, hired by contract, would be included in any bonus pool. These are the most visible entertainers.  

Who knows? I want some transparency since it is a discretionary tip now called crew incentive. As an American I am accustomed to tipping but I always know to whom and how much and who it's going. It is my belief ( as told to me by a friend in corp) that Princess keeps a percent under the guise of administration costs.  

[donaldsc]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

There is one thing you probably have not thought of. As the price will be higher, your travel insurance might be higher if you cross one of their monetary borders for pricing. The tips you pay on the ship are not included in that price, and are not needed for insurance as if you end up not on the cruise you are not paying the tips.

 

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

There is one thing you probably have not thought of. As the price will be higher, your travel insurance might be higher if you cross one of their monetary borders for pricing. The tips you pay on the ship are not included in that price, and are not needed for insurance as if you end up not on the cruise you are not paying the tips.

 

Valid point but until this Covid pandemic, I always bought an annual travel policy.  While the cost of a single cruise might impact the cost of my insurance, it will not be a major impact.

 

DON

[rkacruiser]

I see no reason for staff that perform entertainment functions, such as sound and lights staff, members of musical groups, and show cast members to be given any type of "bonus" or "incentive" to "do their best".  They knew what their salary was going to be when they signed their contract.  If they "don't perform their best" to the satisfaction of the Entertainment Director on the ship and corporate level, they will not receive another contract.  

 

From where do the paychecks for these types of staff members come?  Is it from Princess Corporate?  Or is it from a company that Princess contracts to provide these members for the staff of a Princess ship?    

[nocl]

5 hours ago, cruzsnooze said:

Who knows? I want some transparency since it is a discretionary tip now called crew incentive. As an American I am accustomed to tipping but I always know to whom and how much and who it's going. It is my belief ( as told to me by a friend in corp) that Princess keeps a percent under the guise of administration costs.  

Are you certain about that. Many businesses in the US use tip pooling. so the person you give the money to, may not end up with it  just as on a cruise line.

 

The requirement under US accounting law for treatment of tips is pretty clear (it applies to cruise lines that are listed on US stock exchanges)

 

Tips are outside of a companies financials (they are neither revenue nor the monies paid out expenses) as long as they are voluntary (can be removed) and the monies received are paid out fully to employees.  So pooling is allowed for US businesses and many do so.

Edited June 4, 2021 by nocl

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, cruzsnooze said:

It is my belief ( as told to me by a friend in corp) that Princess keeps a percent under the guise of administration costs.

I cannot say for sure about Princess, but NCL did "keep" a portion, to use for "crew welfare" (i.e. parties, amenities in the crew lounges, etc).

54 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

From where do the paychecks for these types of staff members come?  Is it from Princess Corporate?  Or is it from a company that Princess contracts to provide these members for the staff of a Princess ship?

Some entertainment staff are sub-contractors, some are cruise line employees.  If they are employees, the paycheck comes from the ship, as each ship is a separate corporate entity and profit center.

[nocl]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

I cannot say for sure about Princess, but NCL did "keep" a portion, to use for "crew welfare" (i.e. parties, amenities in the crew lounges, etc).

Some entertainment staff are sub-contractors, some are cruise line employees.  If they are employees, the paycheck comes from the ship, as each ship is a separate corporate entity and profit center.

It is my understanding that as long as the funds are kept separate, used fully for the benefit of employees, and not used for any other purpose the company is not 'keeping' the money in the normal sense of the term.

 

If they were not using the funds for the benefit of the employees,  including direct disbursement of funds, and will as employee welfare items, then the funds would have to be considered to be income and the monies paid out as revenue. This would clearly be large enough to be material in the financial reporting to the SEC.

[rkacruiser]

49 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Some entertainment staff are sub-contractors, some are cruise line employees. 

 

Are you able to identify the job classifications that those members of the entertainment staff would be?

 

 

49 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

If they are employees, the paycheck comes from the ship, as each ship is a separate corporate entity and profit center.

 

Are you saying that these staff members, originally contracted by a firm hired by Princess Cruises and then assigned to a Princess ship, that their salary is not  money that the firm pays to Princess in order to pay those staff members?   

[chengkp75]

33 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Are you able to identify the job classifications that those members of the entertainment staff would be?

 

 

 

Are you saying that these staff members, originally contracted by a firm hired by Princess Cruises and then assigned to a Princess ship, that their salary is not  money that the firm pays to Princess in order to pay those staff members?   

The job classifications will vary by cruise line.  Not sure what your second paragraph is looking for, but I'll take a stab.  I said that if the crew are employees, meaning they are Princess employees, that their paycheck comes from the ship, not the parent corporation, just as the crew's contract is an agreement between the crew member and the Captain.  If a crew member is employed by a sub-contractor, or is a sub-contractor themselves, then they are paid by either their company or by the cruise line, not the ship, since their contract is with the corporation.

[Steelers36]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Are you able to identify the job classifications that those members of the entertainment staff would be?

 

 

 

Are you saying that these staff members, originally contracted by a firm hired by Princess Cruises and then assigned to a Princess ship, that their salary is not  money that the firm pays to Princess in order to pay those staff members?   

 

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The job classifications will vary by cruise line.  Not sure what your second paragraph is looking for, but I'll take a stab.  I said that if the crew are employees, meaning they are Princess employees, that their paycheck comes from the ship, not the parent corporation, just as the crew's contract is an agreement between the crew member and the Captain.  If a crew member is employed by a sub-contractor, or is a sub-contractor themselves, then they are paid by either their company or by the cruise line, not the ship, since their contract is with the corporation.

 

@chengkp75 makes perfect sense for the contract situation.  @rkacruiser, the entertainment outsourcer is billing Princess Cruises with an invoice (to Accts Payable).  The outsourcer would do the payroll for their resources supplied to Princess.  Obviously, the outsourcer bills Princess more than their costs of payroll and benefits in this case.

[nocl]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Are you able to identify the job classifications that those members of the entertainment staff would be?

 

 

 

Are you saying that these staff members, originally contracted by a firm hired by Princess Cruises and then assigned to a Princess ship, that their salary is not  money that the firm pays to Princess in order to pay those staff members?   

I would expect entertainment to include the cruise directors staff. All of those that run the various activities.

[Lucky TGO]

Hi to all my Cruise Critic friends,

To tell you the truth I really don’t care Who gets what 💵💵💵 Until it gets out of control. Like when we are told we are going up on the tip because we are adding the guy that cleans the  Propellers because he’s making the ship run better. 😳

The Captain of The Rowboat,

Tony

 

[cruzsnooze]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The job classifications will vary by cruise line.  Not sure what your second paragraph is looking for, but I'll take a stab.  I said that if the crew are employees, meaning they are Princess employees, that their paycheck comes from the ship, not the parent corporation, just as the crew's contract is an agreement between the crew member and the Captain.  If a crew member is employed by a sub-contractor, or is a sub-contractor themselves, then they are paid by either their company or by the cruise line, not the ship, since their contract is with the corporation.

Shops like Effy or the art auction appear to be subcontractors to me. What's your take on them?

Edited June 5, 2021 by cruzsnooze

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, cruzsnooze said:

Shops like Effy or the art auction appear to be subcontractors to me. What's your take on them?

Yes, the shops, spa, and art auctions are concessions, so they pay a flat rate to the cruise line to put their people and products on all ships of the line.  They then pay their staff directly, and decide how many staff they will employ.  They would not be in a DSC pool.

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, Lucky TGO said:

Hi to all my Cruise Critic friends,

To tell you the truth I really don’t care Who gets what 💵💵💵 Until it gets out of control. Like when we are told we are going up on the tip because we are adding the guy that cleans the  Propellers because he’s making the ship run better. 😳

The Captain of The Rowboat,

Tony

 

But you're okay with them keeping the DSC at a given level, and upping the fare to pay the guy that cleans the propeller more, right?  What is the difference.  Do not think of the DSC as a "tip" or "gratuity", it is just a portion of the cruise fare that is broken out and listed separately, like port taxes and fees.  It is mainly done to keep base, advertised fares as low as possible.

Edited June 5, 2021 by chengkp75

[skynight]

9 hours ago, nocl said:

I would expect entertainment to include the cruise directors staff. All of those that run the various activities.

The entertainment director, cruise director and most ass't cruise directors are classified as ship's officers. Some entry level ass't cd's are not actually officers but higher level staff positions. It has been my understanding that the top two, ED & CD are salary employees. Any bonus they receive would probably be from a different plan. The others, assistants, could be part of the pool, and deserve the recognition. 

[B Midged]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

But you're okay with them keeping the DSC at a given level, and upping the fare to pay the guy that cleans the propeller more, right?  What is the difference.  Do not think of the DSC as a "tip" or "gratuity", it is just a portion of the cruise fare that is broken out and listed separately, like port taxes and fees.  It is mainly done to keep base, advertised fares as low as possible.

What’s the difference?  The cruise fare in not optional. That’s the difference. We will be not be donating to the crew incentive program for a multi billion dollar corporation. We have other charities to donate to. 

[skynight]

10 minutes ago, B Midged said:

What’s the difference?  The cruise fare in not optional. That’s the difference. We will be not be donating to the crew incentive program for a multi billion dollar corporation. We have other charities to donate to. 

That of course is up to you. Providing the incentive is not part of a plus or other promotional fare and is being charged directly to your on board account you have the option to remove the crew incentive. There is a sound business reason why ships financially operate in this manner.

Recognize that if you choose to provide a cash incentive to any crew member it is required to be turned over to the pool. If the passenger has partially or totally removed the crew incentive then the pool retains the cash. If the passenger did not remove any of the incentive then the cash is returned to her/him and could be shared with others that support her/him.

 

[B Midged]

5 minutes ago, skynight said:

That of course is up to you. Providing the incentive is not part of a plus or other promotional fare and is being charged directly to your on board account you have the option to remove the crew incentive. There is a sound business reason why ships financially operate in this manner.

Recognize that if you choose to provide a cash incentive to any crew member it is required to be turned over to the pool. If the passenger has partially or totally removed the crew incentive then the pool retains the cash. If the passenger did not remove any of the incentive then the cash is returned to her/him and could be shared with others that support her/him.

 

That’s a rumor. Of course there is a sound business decision to operate that way. If I ran a business that could con the customers into donating to pay my employees so I didn’t have to, I would do the same thing. 

[cruzsnooze]

3 hours ago, skynight said:

That of course is up to you. Providing the incentive is not part of a plus or other promotional fare and is being charged directly to your on board account you have the option to remove the crew incentive. There is a sound business reason why ships financially operate in this manner.

Recognize that if you choose to provide a cash incentive to any crew member it is required to be turned over to the pool. If the passenger has partially or totally removed the crew incentive then the pool retains the cash. If the passenger did not remove any of the incentive then the cash is returned to her/him and could be shared with others that support her/him.

 

Actually the crew contract states all monies go into the pool and no exception was stated regarding pax having kept the auto gratuity intact

[voljeep]

16 hours ago, nocl said:

Tips are outside of a companies financials (they are neither revenue nor the monies paid out expenses) as long as they are voluntary (can be removed) and the monies received are paid out fully to employees. 

so, then, how are tips that show up on employees W-2's accounted for on the "books" ?

[skynight]

12 minutes ago, voljeep said:

so, then, how are tips that show up on employees W-2's accounted for on the "books" ?

Are there W2's? International tax and income laws are complex and vary greatly by country.  Is their income U.S. because Princess is located in CA, Bermuda income, the ship's flag and earned at sea, or some other country where they signed a contract with a 3rd party contractor? I don't know, but would guess that crew do not file U.S. income taxes. 

[cruzsnooze]

The crew probably aren't paid in US dollars but in their home countries. 

I really don't care how or what they are paid, I just want to know when I tip someone who gets it. I don't want to tip "all revenue" departments and entertainment depts. Since it's discretionary I want to know more so I can make an informed decision about this discretionary crew incentive.  

Rumor has it they are changing the tiers, I'm interested in knowing what my tier will be. I'm elite but if there's a higher tier what will the cutoff be.

[Steelers36]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Yes, the shops, spa, and art auctions are concessions, so they pay a flat rate to the cruise line to put their people and products on all ships of the line.  They then pay their staff directly, and decide how many staff they will employ.  They would not be in a DSC pool.

Would not be surprised if the shop employees earn sales commissions (esp. the clothing, cosmetic and jewelry shops).