HAL needs to drop Covid Testing

[Mary229]

2 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Too funny considering that medical practice going back to the 1700's that identification of infected individuals, as well as close contacts, in conjunction with quarantine is a mainstay of disease control. Major examples include outbreaks of many different diseases including small pox, typhoid, Cholera for example.  Some examples are Yellow Fever in Philadelphia 1793, Typhoid is Sydney in 1814, Cholera in New York in 1832, Small pox Sydney 1881 and so on.

 

In the case of cruise ships identification of cases prior to boarding is basically quarantining those cases from the rest of the population on board ship, since they are not onboard ship.  Any good Epidemiology 101 text book has the basic formulas concerning spread in a population based upon a number of factors including number of source cases.

 

Covid is a bit different in that it is one of the few diseases that is infectious even with asymptomatic individuals, as such testing is used more often, since a diagnosis by symptoms itself may not be possible. However the way it has been handled with other illness is to quarantine any close contacts, with or without testing, until after the incubation period has passed for that disease.

You make one of my points about testing being ineffective.  I did not say quarantining was not medically accepted and has shown to work, if we understand transmission.  We don’t always understand transmission.  It took about 400 years for us to figure out bubonic plague transmission and we are still learning.  
 

my argument was people stating as fact that the cruise testing program reduced the incidence of Covid on cruise ships.  There is no study, there is no fact.  It is supposition based on assumptions 

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, albingirl said:

Put quite simply, I'm all for testing if it prevents invected people from boarding the ship. Logically, of course it doesn't prevent all invections while sailing, but it is one step that can prevent some illness.  The cruiseline is trying to keep the numbers down.

Yep, the question on what protocols will be removed and when will be driven by how many cases the cruise lines are seeing and how sensitive they are to that number.  The fewer cases or the lower sensitivity the more likely they get removed.  The more cases and the greater sensitivity the less likely.

[chengkp75]

46 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

The clean ship and air filtration systems are likely to be the most beneficial program.

Since you require peer reviewed studies, please provide one that shows that air filtration systems on a central HVAC system mitigates covid.  ASHRAE has at best stated that it might, but has no data.  Also, some studies of how much surface sanitation mitigates transmission.

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Since you require peer reviewed studies, please provide one that shows that air filtration systems on a central HVAC system mitigates covid.  ASHRAE has at best stated that it might, but has no data.  Also, some studies of how much surface sanitation mitigates transmission.

I did not state it as a fact, I stated it is likely indicating it is my opinion.  

Edited July 25, 2022 by Mary229

[KAKcruiser]

Are many of the ports in the Caribbean still requiring covid testing of cruise ship passengers?  That is the only reason I can think of that prevents HAL from discontinuing testing.

[BermudaBound2014]

5 minutes ago, KAKcruiser said:

Are many of the ports in the Caribbean still requiring covid testing of cruise ship passengers?  

No- the majority of islands in the Caribbean do not require testing OR vaccination.

https://www.travelweekly.com/Caribbean-Travel/Caribbean-readies-for-a-wave-of-reopenings
 

 

[PACD_JG]

3 hours ago, aeraen said:

Exposing others, especially the low-paid workers on the cruise ships, indiscriminately and without the slightest consideration, is unconscionable.  For their sake alone, I will happily pay $20 for a test and suffer through having a q-tip invade my sinus cavity.  I'm sure they appreciate it far more than non-testers appear to appreciate them.  

 

I'm all for ship's crew having the freedom to choose whether to mask or not.  I bet they'd appreciate that much more than customers having to test to board.

[BermudaBound2014]

3 hours ago, aeraen said:

 

While most of your examples are not those of "superspreader events", baring the sports stadium example, one typically departs airplanes, airports, trains, buses, malls, grocery stores and sports stadiums within a few hours, mitigating exposure.  On a cruise, one is typically subject to exposure to one's fellow passengers for a week or more, day in and day out.  Not to mention the exposure experienced by the hard-working crew, who feeds and cleans up after us. 

While one must continue to live their lives, shop for food, travel to work, etc., cruises are luxuries that are not necessary (although highly desirable).  Exposing others, especially the low-paid workers on the cruise ships, indiscriminately and without the slightest consideration, is unconscionable.  For their sake alone, I will happily pay $20 for a test and suffer through having a q-tip invade my sinus cavity.  I'm sure they appreciate it far more than non-testers appear to appreciate them.

 

You are aware that according to crew social most want all covid protocols dropped? The crew don’t want to wear masks and don’t want to test weekly. Can you blame them? 

 

[aeraen]

25 minutes ago, PACD_JG said:

I'm all for ship's crew having the freedom to choose whether to mask or not.  I bet they'd appreciate that much more than customers having to test to board.

 

Do you mind if I use that?  I'm writing an article on entitled travelers and, even a dozen paragraphs could not illustrate the phenomenon as well as you did in that one phrase.  

[Cruise NH]

Well isn't this all going to come down to money?

 

For example, the Caribbean market is very competitive, you have lots of cruise choices.  So if you're a couple wanting to go on a winter cruise, you take time off work and you fly down to Florida...but one cruise line wants you to show proof of a negative test to get on.  Testing positive means no cruise for you.  Another line doesn't require it...so there's no risk of losing out on your vacation.  Which one will they pick?

[PACD_JG]

1 minute ago, aeraen said:

 

Do you mind if I use that?  I'm writing an article on entitled travelers and, even a dozen paragraphs could not illustrate the phenomenon as well as you did in that one phrase.  

Sure...as long as you wipe down your keyboard with a Clorox wipe first.  Wouldn't want you to catch anything.

[Don Kehote]

I'm commenting here before this thread is rightfully nuked into oblivion.

 

I don't mind testing, and I'm *poor* compared to most of you. 

[BermudaBound2014]

9 minutes ago, Cruise NH said:

Well isn't this all going to come down to money?

This ^ 

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

I did not say quarantining was not medically accepted and has shown to work, if we understand transmission.  We don’t always understand transmission.  It took about 400 years for us to figure out bubonic plague transmission

 

This is a little disingenuous. There is nothing particularly tricky or new about the method by which COVID is spread. It spreads primarily via droplets that are emitted by infected people, mostly through the air.  Other viruses have similar methods of spreading. Certainly nothing to throw epidemiologists for a loop.

 

There have been a number of studies and modelling efforts looking at this type of spread and while the magnitude of effect differs depending on the infectivity of the virus and the specific conditions of the study (or conditions of the model), it is clear that reducing the number of infected individuals that people are exposed to reduces the spread of the disease.

 

This is why for years it has been a recommendation that people with flu should stay at home. Not going to school or to work reduces exposure of others and thus reduces the total spread/number of cases.

 

Kind of a curve ball to toss the Bubonic plague into the mix as an example, considering it is caused by a bacterium and not a virus. Taking a few hundred years to understand it is not surprising given the state of science at the time it first developed. In 1347, when plague arrived on the scene,  there was no understanding of hygiene, infection, "germs" or anything like. Physicians still believed in the four "humors" of the body.  

 

Not exactly a level playing field to where we start today in understanding spread of infection....

[Mary229]

5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is a little disingenuous. There is nothing particularly tricky or new about the method by which COVID is spread. It spreads primarily via droplets that are emitted by infected people, mostly through the air.  Other viruses have similar methods of spreading. Certainly nothing to throw epidemiologists for a loop.

 

There have been a number of studies and modelling efforts looking at this type of spread and while the magnitude of effect differs depending on the infectivity of the virus and the specific conditions of the study (or conditions of the model), it is clear that reducing the number of infected individuals that people are exposed to reduces the spread of the disease.

 

This is why for years it has been a recommendation that people with flu should stay at home. Not going to school or to work reduces exposure of others and thus reduces the total spread/number of cases.

 

Kind of a curve ball to toss the Bubonic plague into the mix as an example, considering it is caused by a bacterium and not a virus. Taking a few hundred years to understand it is not surprising given the state of science at the time it first developed. In 1347, when plague arrived on the scene,  there was no understanding of hygiene, infection, "germs" or anything like. Physicians still believed in the four "humors" of the body.  

 

Not exactly a level playing field to where we start today in understanding spread of infection....

We are still learning. I am not denying quarantine but it is not a panacea as some think it might be.  It can be tricky.  Perhaps we do understand Covid but one would have to admit Covid and Ebola quarantine are different protocols. 
 

bubonic is still around and we are still learning information about transmission.  I was watching a documentary on bubonic this very afternoon.  I did not know it killed 1 and a half million people in the early 1900s, I did not know there were serious outbreaks in San Francisco in the same period.  There is always something to learn.  It is speculated is said documentary that the American flea carries less a load than the Asian and European flea and that seems to be what hampered its spread in the US

Edited July 25, 2022 by Mary229

[JesseLivermore]

7 hours ago, lpmpsail said:

HAL needs to drop Covid Testing - just found out from Walgreens & CVS that I'll be paying at least $129/test for us to get their testing done since we have no symptoms or other reason to get the test, aside from travel.  Yeah, guess I could lie about symptoms so insurance would cover it but that just seems like karma waiting to strike.  The government has changed rules - it's time for the cruise ships to do the same.  Even though we're fully vaxxed & boosted twice, obviously we can still get Covid.  Something we probably will live with the rest of our lives, unfortunately.

 

Will be doing the Walgreens NAAT  later this week ((AK next week) Not sure why saying you might be exposed is karmic problem since C19 is everywhere and it's good to check. Will be carrying self tests on the trip too, just in case.

 

How does quarantine work if someone tests positive on ship?

[BermudaBound2014]

22 minutes ago, JesseLivermore said:

How does quarantine work if someone tests positive on ship?

 

I can only answer based on what people have reported here since I haven't experienced it personally. To me, it sounds like a nightmare. For the most part it appears that Positive guests are separated from their families, moved out of their originally booked cabin and into an ocean view cabin, locked behind a firewall, fed room service and given free movies. 

 

You should probably read a few of these threads to get a feel for what happens:

There are dozens of threads available for you to peruse. I will likely not step foot on a cruise ship until the threat of quarantine is eliminated. 

 

[albingirl]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is a little disingenuous. There is nothing particularly tricky or new about the method by which COVID is spread. It spreads primarily via droplets that are emitted by infected people, mostly through the air.  Other viruses have similar methods of spreading. Certainly nothing to throw epidemiologists for a loop.

 

There have been a number of studies and modelling efforts looking at this type of spread and while the magnitude of effect differs depending on the infectivity of the virus and the specific conditions of the study (or conditions of the model), it is clear that reducing the number of infected individuals that people are exposed to reduces the spread of the disease.

 

This is why for years it has been a recommendation that people with flu should stay at home. Not going to school or to work reduces exposure of others and thus reduces the total spread/number of cases.

 

Kind of a curve ball to toss the Bubonic plague into the mix as an example, considering it is caused by a bacterium and not a virus. Taking a few hundred years to understand it is not surprising given the state of science at the time it first developed. In 1347, when plague arrived on the scene,  there was no understanding of hygiene, infection, "germs" or anything like. Physicians still believed in the four "humors" of the body.  

 

Not exactly a level playing field to where we start today in understanding spread of infection....

Very well said.  Thank you.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, ldtr said:

Yep, the question on what protocols will be removed and when will be driven by how many cases the cruise lines are seeing and how sensitive they are to that number.  The fewer cases or the lower sensitivity the more likely they get removed.  The more cases and the greater sensitivity the less likely.

And it will also depend on how sensitive potential passengers are if that data is actually known.

[Xenni]

1 hour ago, PACD_JG said:

insensitive

 

 

2 hours ago, PACD_JG said:

I recently wrote something similar on another thread, and it was deleted for being insensitive.  Anyway, you're right.  And what I wrote - HAL has one month to end their testing policy, because that is when final payment is due on their Thanksgiving cruises.  It's smart business not to have a bunch of cancellations just to appease a faction who would never book a holiday cruise in the first place.

What you actually wrote was a lot more offensive than insensitive, just saying.

 

Regardless, I think the community here is way too divided to have a meaningful and civilized discussion without being offensive. I would rather companies keep their testing and mask policies, but it ultimately will depend on the money, not whoever scream/complain the loudest in the forum

 

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

This is a little disingenuous. There is nothing particularly tricky or new about the method by which COVID is spread. It spreads primarily via droplets that are emitted by infected people, mostly through the air.  Other viruses have similar methods of spreading. Certainly nothing to throw epidemiologists for a loop.

 

There have been a number of studies and modelling efforts looking at this type of spread and while the magnitude of effect differs depending on the infectivity of the virus and the specific conditions of the study (or conditions of the model), it is clear that reducing the number of infected individuals that people are exposed to reduces the spread of the disease.

 

This is why for years it has been a recommendation that people with flu should stay at home. Not going to school or to work reduces exposure of others and thus reduces the total spread/number of cases.

 

Kind of a curve ball to toss the Bubonic plague into the mix as an example, considering it is caused by a bacterium and not a virus. Taking a few hundred years to understand it is not surprising given the state of science at the time it first developed. In 1347, when plague arrived on the scene,  there was no understanding of hygiene, infection, "germs" or anything like. Physicians still believed in the four "humors" of the body.  

 

Not exactly a level playing field to where we start today in understanding spread of infection....

 they did do quarantine and isolation as mechanisms to mitigate spread even in 1347.  

[colin v]

Question for people who wish testing and masking to go by the wayside, IF you are be infected with COVID onboard and are put into a quarantine (minimum of 5 days, maximum of whatever), would you expect HAL, or any cruise line, to offer you any sort of compensation for your days in quarantine?

 

Maybe a question before that one, if you were to get the sniffles, cough etc onboard would you tell anyone and take a COVID test, or just go about your day unmasked potentially infecting your fellow passengers?

 

This isn't directed to any one person specifically.  We are boarding the Rotterdam in August and I just wanted to get a feel for how my fellow passengers may think.

 

[Seasick Sailor]

We are on Maui for 4 weeks. This is our 3rd week. We brought 4 covid tests with us. If we felt any symptoms,  we would test and hopefully fellow passengers would do the same.

[KAKcruiser]

Maybe they should do away with quarantines.  It seems that most people who get covid get either mild or no symptoms.  Maybe at this point it should be treated the same as a cold or flu. Nobody gets guarantined for that.

[JesseLivermore]

4 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I can only answer based on what people have reported here since I haven't experienced it personally. To me, it sounds like a nightmare. For the most part it appears that Positive guests are separated from their families, moved out of their originally booked cabin and into an ocean view cabin, locked behind a firewall, fed room service and given free movies. 

 

You should probably read a few of these threads to get a feel for what happens:

There are dozens of threads available for you to peruse. I will likely not step foot on a cruise ship until the threat of quarantine is eliminated. 

 

 

.  Hope CDC releasing them from guidelines will change things soon.  

Did those poor folks get a FCC at least? 

Edited July 26, 2022 by JesseLivermore