Cruise Ship Lifeboat Tour. What Life Saving Equipment Is Inside? How Much Food & Water?

[Capt_BJ]

stumbled on this today ... have you ever wondered???

 

 

[mammajamma2013]

Just watched this yesterday. I found it very interesting and informative. Also passed the link on to the friends who are sailing with us end of October.

Edited September 29, 2022 by mammajamma2013
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[Mum2Mercury]

That was most informative.  I genuinely feel that, knowing these things, I'd be better prepared in case of an emergency.  Thanks for sharing! 

[lisiamc]

I had no idea about the three-tier seating in some lifeboats. Yet another reason for me to avoid the bigger ships.

[rkacruiser]

Very interesting!  One needs to be fairly agile to do all of the moving around that the young woman did.  Different lifeboats on other ships would have similar equipment, I am sure.  But, where and how they are stored would probably differ, I expect.

 

 

[Mum2Mercury]

16 minutes ago, lisiamc said:

I had no idea about the three-tier seating in some lifeboats. Yet another reason for me to avoid the bigger ships.

Eh, I am not good in tight, enclosed spaces, so I know where you're coming from ... but I don't think the proportion of passengers to lifeboats would be any different on different sized ships.  

 

I'm actually glad I learned about the three-tier seating because I deal better with things when I know what's coming.  Remember, too, we live in a very modern world:  before that lifeboat hits the water, all sorts of emergency personnel know what's going on, and they're already coming for you -- and the boats are outfitted with find-me devices.  We're never going to wander the seas for weeks in one of those lifeboats hoping for a fishing vessel to pick us up.  

15 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

Very interesting!  One needs to be fairly agile to do all of the moving around that the young woman did.  Different lifeboats on other ships would have similar equipment, I am sure.  But, where and how they are stored would probably differ, I expect.

Agree that not everyone would be able to get into/out of that lifeboat easily.  

 

To share something uncomfortable:  When my daughter was in nursing school she was involved in a big drill about how to get patients/necessary equipment out of the hospital in case of a fire.  With the elevators a no-no, they practiced rolling (non-mobile) people in blankets like burritos and thump-thumping them down the stairwells.  

They also told the staff, "At some point it may become necessary for you to say, 'Things are getting bad here, and I cannot save anyone else.  It's time for me to get my healthy, mobile self out of here.' "

Tell me that it wouldn't come to that in case of a real emergency at sea.  

Edited September 30, 2022 by Mum2Mercury

[rkacruiser]

3 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Remember, too, we live in a very modern world:  before that lifeboat hits the water, all sorts of emergency personnel know what's going on, and they're already coming for you -- and the boats are outfitted with find-me devices.  We're never going to wander the seas for weeks in one of those lifeboats hoping for a fishing vessel to pick us up.  

 

I believe you are correct.  Those "find me" devices were not available at the time of the Prinsendam disaster.  

[lisiamc]

2 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Eh, I am not good in tight, enclosed spaces, so I know where you're coming from ... but I don't think the proportion of passengers to lifeboats would be any different on different sized ships.  

 

I'm actually glad I learned about the three-tier seating because I deal better with things when I know what's coming.  Remember, too, we live in a very modern world:  before that lifeboat hits the water, all sorts of emergency personnel know what's going on, and they're already coming for you -- and the boats are outfitted with find-me devices.  We're never going to wander the seas for weeks in one of those lifeboats hoping for a fishing vessel to pick us up.  

Agree that not everyone would be able to get into/out of that lifeboat easily.  

 

To share something uncomfortable:  When my daughter was in nursing school she was involved in a big drill about how to get patients/necessary equipment out of the hospital in case of a fire.  With the elevators a no-no, they practiced rolling (non-mobile) people in blankets like burritos and thump-thumping them down the stairwells.  

They also told the staff, "At some point it may become necessary for you to say, 'Things are getting bad here, and I cannot save anyone else.  It's time for me to get my healthy, mobile self out of here.' "

Tell me that it wouldn't come to that in case of a real emergency at sea.  

For the three tier lifeboat, I was (selfishly) largely worried about someone barfing on me from two tiers up! I know the amount of space in any lifeboat is very limited, and I am going to be very cosy with my neighbours if I have to get in one.
 

For the emergency situation, I comfort myself thinking a) getting into a lifeboat is an absolute last resort. Staying on the ship is usually the safest and preferred option, until it is not. And b) in most (but I’m sure not all) emergency situations on cruise ships there has been a fair amount of time to save everyone, unless there were bad choices made, a la Concordia.

 

[Mum2Mercury]

1 minute ago, lisiamc said:

For the three tier lifeboat, I was (selfishly) largely worried about someone barfing on me from two tiers up!

I was thinking of someone peeing on those below.  

 

I agree with you though:  I can live with these unpleasant thoughts because 1) it's highly unlikely that any of us will ever find ourselves in a lifeboat.  2) if we do, the ship staff will have decided it's a better choice than staying on the ship, and I trust them to make that choice.  

[rkacruiser]

2 minutes ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I was thinking of someone peeing on those below.  

 

6 minutes ago, lisiamc said:

I was (selfishly) largely worried about someone barfing on me

 

I have considered that as well.  In the literature that I have read about the Prinsendam disaster, those concerns have not been mentioned other than the male passengers had an advantage of getting to the edge of a boat and relieving themselves.  It was reported that when many of the ladies were rescued, they immediately headed for the rescue vessel's loo.  

 

10 minutes ago, lisiamc said:

Staying on the ship is usually the safest and preferred option, until it is not

 

Modern ships are built to be their own lifeboat.  The most recently built ships have separate engine rooms (as I understand it) and are purposely designed to reach the nearest port on their own power.  

[John Bull]

3 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Eh, I am not good in tight, enclosed spaces, so I know where you're coming from ... but I don't think the proportion of passengers to lifeboats would be any different on different sized ships.  

 

 

I wondered about that.

And the proportions are very different.

MSC Seaside max 5200 pax., 16 lifeboats

MSC Armonia max 2680 pax., 14 lifeboats

RCI Oass of the Seas max 6699 pax., 18 lifeboats

RCI Vision of the Seas max 2514 pax., 18 lifeboats

 

I've counted lifeboats from photos, I've tried to quote max number of passengers, I've not taken into account the number of crew or the number / size of inflatable life-rafts, and of course bigger ships have bigger lifeboats. 

But its pretty clear that big ships have much more-crowded lifeboats.

 

We prefer smaller ships but our up-coming cruise is on MSC Seaside, almost twice as big as anything we've sailed to date - can't resist a bargain 🙄.

So I kinda wish I hadn't seen that video (though thanks to the cap'n for linking it).

 

I wasn't expecting a choice of wines & entrees, but as well as barfing there's the small matter of other bodily functions - and not a john in sight. 😲

I  just might stay on board with the captain as the band plays "Nearer my God to Thee"🥴

 

JB 🙂

 

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, John Bull said:

So I kinda wish I hadn't seen that video (though thanks to the cap'n for linking it).

 

I understand what you are saying in your post.  I have been repeatedly assured that all crew and guests can and would be accommodated in the lifeboats/rafts, if need be.  But, the video is disturbing if one would need to be in such a situation for a week.    For most cruises, with the modern lifeboats that are aboard, cruising in most regions would not require such a long response rescue time.  But, in the middle of the Pacific or Indian Ocean where shipping traffic is few and far between?  

[chengkp75]

Okay, a little reality about lifeboats and survival at sea.

 

5 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

emember, too, we live in a very modern world:  before that lifeboat hits the water, all sorts of emergency personnel know what's going on, and they're already coming for you -- and the boats are outfitted with find-me devices.

While its true that government agencies will know there is a disaster, and where, they are not necessarily "already coming for you" and rescue can be days away.  While boats are equipped with EPIRB's to show position to satellites, they have limited battery life, so will not be active all the time.  Other "find me" devices are short range, designed for when aircraft or vessels are almost within visual distance.

 

5 hours ago, lisiamc said:

For the three tier lifeboat, I was (selfishly) largely worried about someone barfing on me from two tiers up! I know the amount of space in any lifeboat is very limited, and I am going to be very cosy with my neighbours if I have to get in one.

This is what the bilge pump is for.  Trust me, you will get barfed on.  Lifeboat seating is 18" wide, 24" from front of knee to back of butt, and designed for a 185 lb person.

 

1 hour ago, John Bull said:

But its pretty clear that big ships have much more-crowded lifeboats.

Smaller ships have the traditional 150 person lifeboat.  The largest ships like Oasis have lifeboats with a capacity of 370 persons.

 

48 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

For most cruises, with the modern lifeboats that are aboard, cruising in most regions would not require such a long response rescue time.  But, in the middle of the Pacific or Indian Ocean where shipping traffic is few and far between?  

Just realize that transferring passengers from a lifeboat to a ship is inherently dangerous, and will not be contemplated unless conditions are absolutely perfect.  Most cargo ships are not designed to load passengers from a boat (you would be climbing up a pilot ladder that is about 3-4 times as high as the ones the pilots use on cruise ships), so you would be waiting for Naval or Coast Guard vessels.  Even other cruise vessels would only open their tender ports in very, very calm seas, and there is no other way to do this.  Removal from a lifeboat by helicopter with the semi-enclosed boats used on cruise ships is even more dangerous than the Prinsendam rescue, and would be very time consuming.

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

They also told the staff, "At some point it may become necessary for you to say, 'Things are getting bad here, and I cannot save anyone else.  It's time for me to get my healthy, mobile self out of here.' "

Triage is always part of any emergency.  

 

5 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Tell me that it wouldn't come to that in case of a real emergency at sea. 

Unfortunately, despite all the training in the world, you never know in a real emergency whether the trained crew will "run into the fire" or "run from the fire".  But, this is why you "train as you would fight", meaning try for as realistic training as possible, so that "muscle memory" takes over and guides the crew to do their duty.

[Mum2Mercury]

2 hours ago, John Bull said:

 

I wondered about that.

And the proportions are very different.

MSC Seaside max 5200 pax., 16 lifeboats

MSC Armonia max 2680 pax., 14 lifeboats

RCI Oass of the Seas max 6699 pax., 18 lifeboats

RCI Vision of the Seas max 2514 pax., 18 lifeboats

 

I've counted lifeboats from photos, I've tried to quote max number of passengers, I've not taken into account the number of crew or the number / size of inflatable life-rafts, and of course bigger ships have bigger lifeboats. 

But its pretty clear that big ships have much more-crowded lifeboats.

 

We prefer smaller ships but our up-coming cruise is on MSC Seaside, almost twice as big as anything we've sailed to date - can't resist a bargain 🙄.

So I kinda wish I hadn't seen that video (though thanks to the cap'n for linking it).

 

I wasn't expecting a choice of wines & entrees, but as well as barfing there's the small matter of other bodily functions - and not a john in sight. 😲

I  just might stay on board with the captain as the band plays "Nearer my God to Thee"🥴

 

JB 🙂

 

I don't doubt your counting, but this just doesn't seem possible.  I mean, as you said, it doesn't include the crew.  And walking on the ship, I've seen the big "covered" lifeboats like we're discussing ... and also some other things that look to be a different, inferior type of lifeboat.  Not sure at all.  

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I understand what you are saying in your post.  I have been repeatedly assured that all crew and guests can and would be accommodated in the lifeboats/rafts, if need be.  But, the video is disturbing if one would need to be in such a situation for a week.    For most cruises, with the modern lifeboats that are aboard, cruising in most regions would not require such a long response rescue time.  But, in the middle of the Pacific or Indian Ocean where shipping traffic is few and far between?  

I guess a week would technically be possible, but 1) this is all hypothetical and extremely unlikely, even for an hour ...  and 2) a week would be in the most incredibly extreme and highly improbable situation.  

33 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

This is what the bilge pump is for.  Trust me, you will get barfed on.  Lifeboat seating is 18" wide, 24" from front of knee to back of butt, and designed for a 185 lb person ... 

 

Just realize that transferring passengers from a lifeboat to a ship is inherently dangerous, and will not be contemplated unless conditions are absolutely perfect.  Most cargo ships are not designed to load passengers from a boat (you would be climbing up a pilot ladder that is about 3-4 times as high as the ones the pilots use on cruise ships), so you would be waiting for Naval or Coast Guard vessels.  Even other cruise vessels would only open their tender ports in very, very calm seas, and there is no other way to do this.  

So I'm at an advantage, being a 110 lb person?  

 

Wow, that paragraph was a bummer.  

26 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Triage is always part of any emergency.  

But we don't like to admit that to ourselves! 

[Mum2Mercury]

Okay, I found information -- true?  Hard to know -- on those secondary lifeboats.  Pretty scary article:  https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2013/01/articles/sinking/titanic-redux-can-royal-caribbean-safely-evacuate-8500-passengers-crew-from-the-oasis-of-the-seas/  

 

Okay, I'm inclined to think choosing smaller ships might be a wise idea. 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Mum2Mercury

[navybankerteacher]

7 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

….

 

2) if we do, the ship staff will have decided it's a better choice than staying on the ship, and I trust them to make that choice.  

Are you referring to Captain Schettino?  He seems to have made “that choice”.

Edited October 1, 2022 by navybankerteacher

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I don't doubt your counting, but this just doesn't seem possible.  I mean, as you said, it doesn't include the crew.  And walking on the ship, I've seen the big "covered" lifeboats like we're discussing ... and also some other things that look to be a different, inferior type of lifeboat.  Not sure at all.  

 

7 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

Okay, I found information -- true?  Hard to know -- on those secondary lifeboats.  Pretty scary article:  https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2013/01/articles/sinking/titanic-redux-can-royal-caribbean-safely-evacuate-8500-passengers-crew-from-the-oasis-of-the-seas/  

 

Okay, I'm inclined to think choosing smaller ships might be a wise idea. 

 

Most things published on Walker's site are slanted to make his viewpoint of casting the cruise lines as villians, since he makes his living suing them.  Long before the Oasis of the Seas, not all souls onboard a cruise ship were allocated to a lifeboat.  Even on a smaller ship like the Norwegian Sky (1900 pax double occupancy), the only crew assigned to lifeboats were the three crew members who formed the boat's crew.  So, with 12 lifeboats, only 36 crew would be in those boats.  But, the 150 person capacity of each boat provided 1764 passenger seats in the boats, which is the ship's maximum capacity.  The crew were all assigned to liferafts.  Just note that some of the older Princess ships use the MES (Marine Evacuation System, or chute and rafts) for passengers above the double occupancy figure, so singling out the larger ships is not justified.

 

Mr. Walker places himself as an "expert" in marine evacuations, over those whose job it is to design equipment for these (both the manufacturers of the equipment, and the safety experts from around the world, that have approved the equipment used on cruise ships through the IMO.  Mr. Walker says that RCI's press release shows women and children using the evacuation chutes, but does not bother to explain that this is a stock drawing from the manufacturer, who provides this equipment not only for cruise ships, but these are commonly used on large ferries around the world, where lifeboats are not even required, just rafts, and this method has been shown to be a better and faster way to evacuate by raft than older methods.  

 

SOLAS, the international convention that regulates ship safety, and to which the US is signatory (and therefore has passed the terms of SOLAS into US law) requires that there be capacity in lifeboats and rafts of 125% of the total number of passengers and crew onboard.  It requires that lifeboats make up 75% of that capacity (37.5% on each side), and the balance in rafts (for passenger vessels, the rafts are either davit launched or MES, to keep from having people have to get into the water to use the raft).  This is the law, and has been since 1980 when SOLAS came into force, which is long before the Oasis of the Seas, that Mr. Walker picks on, was even thought of.  So, use of rafts has long been an accepted form of lifesaving, and one wonders why Mr. Walker just now seems to think they are not safe.

 

Are life rafts "inferior" types of lifeboats?  Not really.  I'm one who has used both, in the ocean, and neither is "fun" or "comfortable", but when you are in them, it is a matter of life or death, so those concepts are totally irrelevant.

8 hours ago, Mum2Mercury said:

I guess a week would technically be possible, but 1) this is all hypothetical and extremely unlikely, even for an hour ...  and 2) a week would be in the most incredibly extreme and highly improbable situation.

As part of a survival training course I took many years ago in Canada, the "final exam" was to spend 4 hours in a life raft at sea off of Halifax (in March, but that is another topic), and one of the main reasons for this was to show just how long 4 hours in a raft would seem.  While a week in a lifeboat would be improbable, a couple of days would not.  If the weather was not good, the powers that be would decide to leave you in the boat until conditions improve.  Trying to move people from small boats in the open ocean is a recipe for massive injuries and loss of life.  One thing I didn't mention about the water and rations is that you do not get any water for 24 hours, and no rations for 48-72 hours, so this stretches the amount further.

[sparks1093]

A lot of food for thought in this thread. As I said in another thread about the muster drill "I look around me and all I see are future casualties".

[Capt_BJ]

OASIS class required creation of a new higher capacity lifeboat - which in term required a new lifting (davit) system and loading process ..... a short article here .... the new design had to be approved by SOLAS .....

 

https://www.rina.org.uk/mega-lifeboat.html

[MBP&O2/O]

"As part of a survival training course I took many years ago in Canada, the "final exam" was to spend 4 hours in a life raft at sea off of Halifax (in March, but that is another topic), and one of the main reasons for this was to show just how long 4 hours in a raft would seem.  While a week in a lifeboat would be improbable, a couple of days would not.  If the weather was not good, the powers that be would decide to leave you in the boat until conditions improve.  Trying to move people from small boats in the open ocean is a recipe for massive injuries and loss of life."

 

North Pacific, January: We spent five hours in an open lifeboat in F7 gusting F8 winds ... with the appropriate seas. The last four hours were spent on a dead boat ... it took a large wave and we ended up swamped....this occured whilst trying to come alongside to transfer people from the boat.

 

Rations: we once came out of a dry dock and found that shore workers had ransacked the lifeboats. All food and hardware had been stolen.

 

As stated, time in a life boat is neither fun or comfortable.

 

[Joebucks]

What I want to know is how many chair hogs I have to battle for a seat

[txjim09]

1 hour ago, Joebucks said:

What I want to know is how many chair hogs I have to battle for a seat

Should I put my towel on a liferaft seat when I get on the ship?

[Capt_BJ]

a little reality check about rescue capability .....

remember this one?  

 

this was Carnival Ecstasy 1998 Port Miami. Minutes after departing the pier heading out for a cruise with a full load, they passed the Coast Guard Base at the mouth of the port who called the Master and asked if he knew he was on fire ....... at the time I was Captain of the 210 foot cutter that operated from this base.  Shortly after exiting the very narrow entrance channel the fire burned thru control cables and the ship anchored with no propulsion or steering and fire fighting efforts kicked into high gear. The ship was still within sight of the CG Base!

 

I was contacted to get underway and assist - we were in a maintenance period with limited capability - the majority of the crew had seen what was happening on TV reports and returned to the ship 'just in case'.

 

I told the rescue coordination center we were ready - with limited capability - and asked "what do you want me to do?"   And here comes my point or reality check ....

 

We may need you to evacuate people. OK, 'we' know from migrant operations that my cutter has a safe capacity of around 250 - 300 .... don't you think you should be looking for MORE ... like some of the ferries and tour boats ....

 

They may want to land helo's on you. OK, but then I can't take people off the ship as the deck is needed AND we both know the pilots always prefer to land on LAND over a cutter - when they take off from the airstation they can SEE the fire ..... where do you think they'll prefer to land?

 

We may need you to tow.  OK, the cruise ship exceeds my max towing capacity by a factor of 10+ and that's when I have both engines working - I have ONE and you know that (reported daily). Maybe you should call the half dozen tugs parked near me, who also have fire fighting capability.

 

Look if you want me to go out and be a pretty picture 'helping' and maybe escorting back in under tow from tugs that's fine but in reality I'm pretty limited in what I can do to help.

 

No I took NO heat from this discussion and we never left the pier.  Had this fire happened elsewhere and we were first on scene, different story for sure but there is not a lot a 1000 ton cutter can do when a cruise ship is in trouble ..... 

 

I subsequently was Captain of an even larger cutter and frankly the possibility of a real problem at sea out of helo range with a mega ship is something to give folks like me in the sea recue business pause. In a worst case 3000 + persons in lifeboats - first rescue vessel could be DAYS away and has no where NEAR capacity for everyone .... Houston we have a problem . . .

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Capt_BJ

[Mum2Mercury]

13 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Are you referring to Captain Schettino?  He seems to have made “that choice”.

A rotten apple.  In general, I trust the officers and staff.  If you didn't, you wouldn't cruise.  

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Most things published on Walker's site are slanted to make his viewpoint of casting the cruise lines as villians, since he makes his living suing them.  Long before the Oasis of the Seas, not all souls onboard a cruise ship were allocated to a lifeboat ... 

' I'm one who has used both, in the ocean, and neither is "fun" or "comfortable", but when you are in them, it is a matter of life or death, so those concepts are totally irrelevant ... 

 

Trying to move people from small boats in the open ocean is a recipe for massive injuries and loss of life ...

 

One thing I didn't mention about the water and rations is that you do not get any water for 24 hours, and no rations for 48-72 hours, so this stretches the amount further.

I don't know this guy's reputation, but I accept what you're saying -- and I absolutely know what you're saying about a-rescue-boat-for-all is true; in fact, ships are required to have MORE seats than souls on board.  We saw those "tube things" on the deck, and we wondered what they were.  I'm glad to have read the article (however slanted) to understand what they are.  

 

What's your job (or, less likely, hobby) that you've tried both?  

 

Until this thread I had not considered how people would get OFF the small boats, but -- yeah -- I totally see that's a real issue, especially for those who aren't able-bodied.  

 

I fully accept that -- if it comes to leaving the ship -- things will be very uncomfortable.  I suspect it's kinda like seat belts and air bags; they will save your life, but they'll leave you with bruises and other minor injuries.  

 

No water for a day /no food for two days?  In tropical heat, this could be really bad.  How is this enforced? 

I assume every small boat has an officer in charge? 

What about communication?  Do people know how far away help is? 

5 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

A lot of food for thought in this thread. As I said in another thread about the muster drill "I look around me and all I see are future casualties".

Eh, I don't know.  What we're discussing is, indeed, quite grim -- but consider the number of ships that sail day in, day out without any hint of a need to go to these lengths.  This is all highly unlikely.  

 

I tried (and failed) to find out when a cruise ship was last forced to launch lifeboats.  Does anyone know this answer?

4 hours ago, Capt_BJ said:

OASIS class required creation of a new higher capacity lifeboat - which in term required a new lifting (davit) system and loading process ..... a short article here .... the new design had to be approved by SOLAS .....

 

https://www.rina.org.uk/mega-lifeboat.html

The whole concept is interesting.  

 

On our recent cruise we received a letter saying that they'd be conducting a lifeboat test the next day -- smart to tell us this ahead of time.  We returned from our morning on one of the islands to see the crew setting out a lifeboat.  If we'd seen this without warning, we'd have been quite hesitant to re-board. 

 

We went up to the Windjammer, and we found a window seat, where we had a front-row seat to watch Carnival Horizon conducting the same lifeboat drill.  We were definitely interested in the whole process.  

 

A related topic:  We noted that they have -- in addition to the covered lifeboats, which we've been discussing -- another type of smaller, uncovered vehicle that looks faster /more maneuverable.  They took that out too, and we guessed it was for picking up a "man overboard".  Or retrieving a body?  We noted later that they have one of these on each side of the ship.  

2 hours ago, txjim09 said:

Should I put my towel on a liferaft seat when I get on the ship?

Great question!