You think it's only Princess?...

[Guest ldtr]

30 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

Agree, but your original statement was not referencing any of these, just(correctly) the value of the military and stock holder's benefit.

 

 

With Princess expecting 75% of passengers to have either Plus or Premier packages, then the value of the mini-bar approaches zero for them with the only benefit being canned soda as the other items are part of the included beverage package. Ditto for the Internet benefit for one device at a time per person since that is also included.

Actually in my post I stated the benenefit combined with the various obc. Still referenced, just not broken out as in the second post.  

 

Only if the passenger decide there is sufficient value in such packages. There choice if they choose to give up the value of some of the benefits. So about the only benefit I would give up with a package is the Internet discount.

 

Though the packages do not include laundry. One can pack up the minibar and take the contents home. Also some discounts are also not in the packages.

Edited October 9, 2022 by ldtr

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

For us OTOH we enjoyed HAL up until they introduced the Music Walk entertainment strategy while also reducing the quality level of their evening shows in the main theater. But when we tried Princess a few years ago on a 25-day Easter Island cruise from Ft Lauderdale coupled with their usually hilarious CD and 4-5 assistants, quality evening entertainment and lectures in the main theater, they have become our new long excursion cruise line.

 

However Princess is doing fewer long unique cruises as their average ship size increases.

[wowzz]

37 minutes ago, ldtr said:

The average age of Princess is now the oldest of the mass market lines it competes with, HAL has gotten younger, Princess has gotten older

Source please ?

Plus, what is the average cabin revenue/profitability per passsenger - no way that you will know that!  

It doesn't matter how old your passengers are, it's how much money they spend.  And, guess what, us old uns spend more,  cos we aren't going to be around that much longer !

Which is why we don't contribute to the drink smuggling threads  - we have enough money to buy our own drinks !

[sloopsailor]

20 hours ago, mom says said:

I don't disagree with anything he said on the video. But to be fair,  he did stress that this change is really only apparent on the newer E class ships. For now.

 

The older ships are being updated to the Edge model as they go into longer dry docks. 

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Source please ?

Plus, what is the average cabin revenue/profitability per passsenger - no way that you will know that!  

It doesn't matter how old your passengers are, it's how much money they spend.  And, guess what, us old uns spend more,  cos we aren't going to be around that much longer !

Which is why we don't contribute to the drink smuggling threads  - we have enough money to buy our own drinks !

 

The biggest issue with age is that sooner or later they stop cruising.  With an average age of 60 odds are that you will loose the half that is older than 60 within 20 years.  Since cruising is trying to be an expanding market  they need to constantly be attracting younger customers that will cruise for longer.  If the average age is increasing for a line the more their passenger base is subject to timing out, as well as it becomes less attractive to new passengers that they need to attract.

 

Or to put it another way a company that is increasing market share in a shrinking market is eventually doomed to failure.  The last buggy whip manufacturer had great market share, made a great product, until they too went out of business.

 

Never said anything about revenue per cabin.  But Market watch does report the market share of each cruise line in both revenue and passengers, which when combined would give one a ratio that would give a  good indication of relative revenue per passenger. Though one needs to also adjust by things like average cruise length when comparing cruise lines (the main reason HAL ratio is higher than Celebrity I believe)

 

For example

 

All of these ratios are down compared to 2019 when this group was pretty much in the 2.0 range

Princess 5.9% passengers  8.7% revenue   Ratio 1.47

Celebrity 3.9% passengers 6.1% revenue   Ratio 1.56

HAL   2.8% passengers  4.6% revenue  Ratio 1.64

 

Similarly one the family mass market lines are also grouped

Carnival   18.2 % passengers   7.6% revenue    ratio .417

Royal Caribbean 19.1% passengers  12.8% revenue  ratio  .670

NCL  8.6% passengers   8.6% revenue ratio 1.0

 

The family mass market ratios are lower due to the number of children and the discounts that largely apply to 3 and 4 passengers in a cabin.  One interesting this is with 2019 data NCL would have been closer to Carnival and Royal.  Not sure if this reflects higher revenue from their ship within a ship approach or if it is an anomaly related to startup pricing and passenger numbers.

 

 

 

 

Number of sources out there

This public source lists both HAL at Princess as average age 57.  Though that tends to be lower than is stated in the purchased reports on the industry.  Those tend to have both Princess and HAL in the 60 to 61 age range, with HAL being down from 64-65 a few years ago.

 

https://emojicut.com/articles/what-is-the-average-age-of-holland-america-passenger

https://emojicut.com/articles/what-is-the-average-age-of-princess-cruise-passengers

 

As far as across the entire industry CLIA does publish the industry numbers each year

 

https://cruising.org/-/media/clia-media/research/2022/2021-1r-clia-001-overview-global.ashx

 

Which in 2021 was 47.7.

 

I can give you the names of the companies that produce commercial reports that I have access to via my investment firm.  They contain better number but are pretty much in agreement that Princess and HAL are running the oldest demographics among the mass market cruise lines.

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by ldtr

[FrugalVoyager]

17 hours ago, Eglesbrech said:

Try cruising in November or February and see just who is filling the ships. It’s the over 50s.

 

I am a young marketing executive my self in my 30s and my philosophy as is with many of my colleagues is that the only reason young people don't fill the ships is because they don't want to cruise with old folks, on a boring boat. But as marketers our job is to completely re-emagine the market and define new expectations of what a "cruise is".

 

To do it effectively we need to basically start fresh and clean to attract the masses to so that effectively older people, seniors and anyone not fitting the new image needs to be phased out so the marketers can do their job and get young people to fall in love with the concept of cruising.

 

Yes it will take years to convert the industry but a massive change is needed to save the industry, the seniors will have to find another way to travel and other ways to vacation because cruising is going young hard. Just my insider take based on all the new advertisement assets cruise lines are focusing on, they are smart to do so.

[Ken the cruiser]

13 minutes ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

I am a young marketing executive my self in my 30s and my philosophy as is with many of my colleagues is that the only reason young people don't fill the ships is because they don't want to cruise with old folks, on a boring boat. But as marketers our job is to completely re-emagine the market and define new expectations of what a "cruise is".

 

To do it effectively we need to basically start fresh and clean to attract the masses to so that effectively older people, seniors and anyone not fitting the new image needs to be phased out so the marketers can do their job and get young people to fall in love with the concept of cruising.

 

Yes it will take years to convert the industry but a massive change is needed to save the industry, the seniors will have to find another way to travel and other ways to vacation because cruising is going young hard. Just my insider take based on all the new advertisement assets cruise lines are focusing on, they are smart to do so.

That’s an interesting concept and BTW you young folks can have all the 4-10 cruises you can afford to take time off of work to enjoy and us old folks on Medicare and drawing social security will just have to suffer on the longer, more boring 3 - 5+ week cruises. 😂

[dweeb]

If Princess is trying for the younger Generation, They better look really hard at their current WiFi / internet onboard their ships.  It is currently lacking.  The youngsters won't tolerate that too long before they seek vacations elsewhere.

 

 

[Kay S]

1 hour ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

 

 

To do it effectively we need to basically start fresh and clean to attract the masses to so that effectively older people, seniors and anyone not fitting the new image needs to be phased out so the marketers can do their job and get young people to fall in love with the concept of cruising.

 

 

Wouldn't it be easier just to take all us old people out to sea and throw us overboard?

 

What cheek.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Kay S

[Kay S]

Frugal Voyager, aren't you the one who was recently complaining that cruises to Hawaii are too expensive and the cruise lines should lower the prices just for you?  I'm sorry your income as Young Marketing Executive isn't sufficient to cover the cost of a two-week cruise on a main-stream line.  It may be time for the old folks to walk the plank in your fantastical universe, but maybe the cruise lines would like them to keep paying for those Hawaii cruises that they can obviously afford.  Funny thing about us old-timers:  we have money and we spend it.

 

See posts #96 and #98 in the "difference between carnival and princess" thread posted by seagoer1973 on Sept 29, 2022 in this Princess forum.

[nini]

21 hours ago, wowzz said:

The problem that you neglect to mention, is that all these trend setting youngsters don't have the time or money to cruise for more than one week per year.  Which is where us oldies come in and save the day,  by cruising two or three times a year, for weeks at a time.

We may not be market drivers, but without our money, there would be no cruise industry to drive !

Absolutely! As a mother of "young adults" with two kids each... I do NOT see them.cruising anytime soon! We, on the other hand..... We have the time and the money.

[sloopsailor]

1 hour ago, Kay S said:

Frugal Voyager, aren't you the one who was recently complaining that cruises to Hawaii are too expensive and the cruise lines should lower the prices just for you?  I'm sorry your income as Young Marketing Executive isn't sufficient to cover the cost of a two-week cruise on a main-stream line.  It may be time for the old folks to walk the plank in your fantastical universe, but maybe the cruise lines would like them to keep paying for those Hawaii cruises that they can obviously afford.  Funny thing about us old-timers:  we have money and we spend it.

 

See posts #96 and #98 in the "difference between carnival and princess" thread posted by seagoer1973 on Sept 29, 2022 in this Princess forum.

 

Yes, he's the one who can't count and calculate why longer cruises cost more than shorter cruises. His complaint was that he didn't understand why a 15 day Hawaii cruise cost two times more than a one week Alaska cruise. His words: "What is up with Hawaii cruises being so expensive" & "The Hawaii cruises cost 2x Alaska cruises ..... day/per rate.. why? Makes 0 sense."

 

Apparently being a "young marketing executive" doesn't require a basic understanding of the economics of things that are significantly different in value. 

 

Not sure what they are teaching these youngsters in college these days. But common sense economics apparently isn't one of them.

 

Or maybe the job title he claims is only in his imagination? 

[Eglesbrech]

8 hours ago, FrugalVoyager said:

 

I am a young marketing executive my self in my 30s and my philosophy as is with many of my colleagues is that the only reason young people don't fill the ships is because they don't want to cruise with old folks, on a boring boat. But as marketers our job is to completely re-emagine the market and define new expectations of what a "cruise is".

 

To do it effectively we need to basically start fresh and clean to attract the masses to so that effectively older people, seniors and anyone not fitting the new image needs to be phased out so the marketers can do their job and get young people to fall in love with the concept of cruising.

 

Yes it will take years to convert the industry but a massive change is needed to save the industry, the seniors will have to find another way to travel and other ways to vacation because cruising is going young hard. Just my insider take based on all the new advertisement assets cruise lines are focusing on, they are smart to do so.

I don’t know where you live frugal cruiser but here is Scotland young folks have respect for their older relatives, they enjoy their company, they enjoy the diversity of meeting people of all ages and experiences. They don’t want to phase them out.

 

I have enjoyed many multi generational cruises with my mother when I was your age and then with my nephew who is in your demographic now I am older.

 

Again if you live in another country then this may not apply but here is the U.K. we have the equality act which covers discrimination on a variety of grounds one of which is age. So seniors won’t “ have to find another way to travel” whether you and your colleagues like it or not. If they choose to travel on a cruise ship then they can do so.

 

In the meantime cruise companies need all passengers to stay profitable and survive.

[SargassoPirate]

8 hours ago, dweeb said:

If Princess is trying for the younger Generation, They better look really hard at their current WiFi / internet onboard their ships.  It is currently lacking.  The youngsters won't tolerate that too long before they seek vacations elsewhere.

 

 

WiFi?  If someone boards a cruise ship and keeps their nose on their device all of the time, why bother to cruise?  They may as well go to the carnival since they probably won't notice the difference unless someone takes a photo of them and posts it online.

 

Part of the experience of cruising for us older folks is that we can be in the moment, enjoy being at sea with the salt air, travel to new places, and meet new friends.

 

I can't begin to count the number of times I'll see a family on a road trip and everyone except the driver has their nose to their device and are missing the scenery around them.  They may as well stay in the driveway and run the engine every so often.  Or, how many times I'll see two couples or a family out to dinner and everyone is on their device and not interacting.

 

frugalvoyager the marketer should figure out how to market virtual reality cruises to the youngsters.  They won't notice the difference.

[SargassoPirate]

5 hours ago, sloopsailor said:

 

Yes, he's the one who can't count and calculate why longer cruises cost more than shorter cruises. His complaint was that he didn't understand why a 15 day Hawaii cruise cost two times more than a one week Alaska cruise. His words: "What is up with Hawaii cruises being so expensive" & "The Hawaii cruises cost 2x Alaska cruises ..... day/per rate.. why? Makes 0 sense."

 

Apparently being a "young marketing executive" doesn't require a basic understanding of the economics of things that are significantly different in value. 

 

Not sure what they are teaching these youngsters in college these days. But common sense economics apparently isn't one of them.

 

Or maybe the job title he claims is only in his imagination? 

 

Someone probably looked at a map and saw that Alaska and Hawaii are very close to one another out there in the Pacific.  Makes perfect sense when you have no concept of geography.

 

Remember when Jay Leno would do "Jay Walking" on the tonight show?

Edited October 10, 2022 by SargassoPirate

[wowzz]

46 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

Again if you live in another country then this may not apply but here is the U.K. we have the equality act which covers discrimination on a variety of grounds one of which is age

Not so sure about that. How does Saga get away with it, if it is illegal to discriminate on age grounds ?

[JF - retired RRT]

13 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Agree, but your original statement was not referencing any of these, just(correctly) the value of the military and stock holder's benefit.

 

 

With Princess expecting 75% of passengers to have either Plus or Premier packages, then the value of the mini-bar approaches zero for them with the only benefit being canned soda as the other items are part of the included beverage package. Ditto for the Internet benefit for one device at a time per person since that is also included.

Not true for those of us who don't drink.

[cruising.mark.uk]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Not so sure about that. How does Saga get away with it, if it is illegal to discriminate on age grounds ?

That's a very good point.  And then, of course, there are all the adult only ships.  So, clearly cruise lines in the UK are allowed to discriminate on the basis of age...  

[rhblake]

Don't get me wrong, we love Celebrity (900+ points) but Princess is better for us now because they do 14 and 14+ day cruise out of the USA. Celebrity has no round trip 14 or 14+ day cruises out of the USA any longer,  you must start or end in another country. We also sail Holland America for the same reason. Celebrity may have found a family friendly niche in 10 & 11 days cruise but not with us.

[Eglesbrech]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Not so sure about that. How does Saga get away with it, if it is illegal to discriminate on age grounds ?

The optimum words in that sentence are “get away with it”. 

 

Age discrimination is only allowed in limited and specific circumstances. There were some exceptions made for holiday companies when the legislation was drafted in 2010 specifically for “specialist group holidays" eg club 18 to 30 etc or SAGA for older travellers. This was and more importantly has always been  SAGAs core business for the over 50s so they may (or may not) be able to rely on that provisions if challenged.

 

A company that has always been open to anyone and then tries to ban certain segments of the population may find it more difficult to avoid being challenged. Just my opinion, the only opinion that would count is the person hearing the case.

I can see someone who has cruised with (insert name) cruise company and built up loyalty perks challenging if all of a sudden they are banned based on their age.

 

[Mike07]

2 hours ago, SargassoPirate said:

I can't begin to count the number of times I'll see a family on a road trip and everyone except the driver has their nose to their device and are missing the scenery around them.  They may as well stay in the driveway and run the engine every so often.  Or, how many times I'll see two couples or a family out to dinner and everyone is on their device and not interacting.

 

 

 

I'll do you one better... Valentine's Day (2/14) at a cozy restaurant... the couple were both on their phones the entire night.  We've reached peak humanity!!!

[Eglesbrech]

40 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

That's a very good point.  And then, of course, there are all the adult only ships.  So, clearly cruise lines in the UK are allowed to discriminate on the basis of age...  

But people who are legally adults of any age can travel on them, right?

 

There are well rehearsed legal distinctions between adults and children eg children aren’t allowed in certain licenses premises at certain times, casinos etc. 

 

It’s the difference between discrimination and potentially illegal age discrimination. If no one challenges it then the status quo remains. Who knows if it’s right or wrong.

 

[cruising.mark.uk]

28 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

 

It’s the difference between discrimination and potentially illegal age discrimination. If no one challenges it then the status quo remains. Who knows if it’s right or wrong.

 

I'm sure you are right.  And I suspect that, although they discourage it, if a 30yr old really wanted to travel with Saga, they wouldn't stop them.  Likewise, if you really wanted to take under 18s on an adult-only ship they probably wouldn't stop you either because the companies wouldn't want to fall foul of discrimination laws.  But, they do everything they possibly can to limit their passengers to those within their target demographic via their marketing and by making it seem as if someone who doesn't fit in that demographic cannot travel. 

 

And it certainly looks from recent marketing / advertising campaigns that Princess and others are making it very clear that they are targeting a younger demographic than might have previously been the case.  I sense from some of the recent threads on these boards that, in doing that, they are actively disincentivising some of those who fall within the more mature demographic!  While some on here think that would be a mistake, I guess that the cruise lines know their balance books and calculate that they will make more over time from recruiting new younger cruisers than they will hanging on to the older ones. 

 

Time will doubtless tell who is right.  I suspect that, as with most things, the real trick will be to find the compromise / balance point between attracting new customers who will provide income for the next forty years and retaining those who have provided income for the last forty years and may continue to do so for a few years more.

 

[Eglesbrech]

4 minutes ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

I'm sure you are right.  And I suspect that, although they discourage it, if a 30yr old really wanted to travel with Saga, they wouldn't stop them.  Likewise, if you really wanted to take under 18s on an adult-only ship they probably wouldn't stop you either because the companies wouldn't want to fall foul of discrimination laws.  But, they do everything they possibly can to limit their passengers to those within their target demographic via their marketing and by making it seem as if someone who doesn't fit in that demographic cannot travel. 

 

And it certainly looks from recent marketing / advertising campaigns that Princess and others are making it very clear that they are targeting a younger demographic than might have previously been the case.  I sense from some of the recent threads on these boards that, in doing that, they are actively disincentivising some of those who fall within the more mature demographic!  While some on here think that would be a mistake, I guess that the cruise lines know their balance books and calculate that they will make more over time from recruiting new younger cruisers than they will hanging on to the older ones. 

 

Time will doubtless tell who is right.  I suspect that, as with most things, the real trick will be to find the compromise / balance point between attracting new customers who will provide income for the next forty years and retaining those who have provided income for the last forty years and may continue to do so for a few years more.

 

That’s a fair summation and yes I think they will try to strike a happy balance to fill their ships and for the bottom line.

 

People will self select to move to another type of experience if they are not enjoying what is being offered to them but that may not be based on age.

 

I have never liked heavy rock music, noise and general buzz and prefer more quiet pursuits but I have friends who would be the last ones at the disco and could drink anyone under the table 😀.

 

 

[SargassoPirate]

1 hour ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

I'll do you one better... Valentine's Day (2/14) at a cozy restaurant... the couple were both on their phones the entire night.  We've reached peak humanity!!!

Maybe they were texting each other 😁