Be Careful What You Buy on Board

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, Ret MP said:

Really?  What was said that is based upon first hand knowledge?  What was going on behind the scenes?  Did he know that it was a stop based of suspicion or was it a random event?  Was there a informant tip involved?  I don't know and neither does he or you.  

 

The only thing I agree with or can say is factually true is, "Not everybody is a criminal".  But, we don't know who is until, and I'm saying this for at least the second time, we get inquisitive, following legal bounds, of course.  

 

And just because someone says they are innocent, doesn't mean they are.  Jails are filled with  "innocent" people, just ask them.  I'm not saying that this guy, who knows nothing about Law Enforcement, is innocent or guilty of anything.  Just that we don't know why the alarm and walking trip, NOT A PERP WALK, to the CBO office was necessary.  

I think you are missing the point. They know that the purchase was made since all large purchases are reported to customs. When they bong the passenger for the purchase and take them aside all they do is collect the taxes. They don't charge them with any criminal act. So why do they treat them badly. Why don't they send them to guest relations and remind them about the taxes?  For that matter why don't they send a notice or message to the passenger the night before? There is no reason to assume the worst and treat them badly. I wonder how other cruise lies lines handle this. I have seen similiar postings before on the Royal Caribbean boards but I don't recall any similiar postings  of it happening that way on other cruise lines. 

[Ret MP]

2 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

I think you are missing the point. They know that the purchase was made since all large purchases are reported to customs. When they bong the passenger for the purchase and take them aside all they do is collect the taxes. They don't charge them with any criminal act. But, they could. So why do they treat them badly. Treated badly?  Do you think being asked to go to a safe location to answer questions is being "treated badly"?  Why don't they send them to guest relations and remind them about the taxes? Because that's not what they do.  There are procedures, as I've explained ad nauseum. For that matter why don't they send a notice or message to the passenger the night before?  Again, we don't know why, I know I don't.  And that's the point. There is no reason to assume the worst and treat them badly Agreed.  But, we don't know what is going on in this event, DO WE!. I wonder how other cruise lies lines handle this. I have seen similiar postings before on the Royal Caribbean boards but I don't recall any similiar postings  of it happening that way on other cruise lines. I don't care!

 

[ggo85]

Another thing to keep in mind . . . A family traveling together can pool their exemptions. Thus, for a family of 4, it would be $3200. Thus, a $3000 purchase, assuming  no other purchases over $200 total, would be ok.  
 

Duty free means the store didn’t pay duty, not that the purchaser doesn’t have to.  
 

Cruise lines are required to report because most passengers won’t.  If you buy in a port store and give them info about your ship or cabin, assume your purchase will be reported to the ship which will report it to US customs. 
 

The US duty isn’t super high. Just figure into the cost of your purchase and decide if it’s still a good deal for you. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by ggo85

[Seville2Cabo]

I guess it has changed and maybe port dependent. We’ve come thru customs 3 time over limit. 2 watches and one time earrings. Declared the item and they said enjoy. All were over the $4k of the op. The paper work was not worth the fee. 
On our last 3 cruise, the immigration officer asked us if we had anything to declare, we said no. 

[Charles4515]

12 minutes ago, Ret MP said:

Because that's not what they do.  There are procedures, as I've explained ad nauseum. 

 

I am not talking about law enforcement. We know they are trained to treat everyone as guilty. I also don't doubt that  there are passengers who don't report purchases.  I have also heard sales people in port suggest not reporting purchases. The cruise line knows about the purchases, they reported them. Guest relations can send a notice to the passenger reminding them that duty may be due for their onboard purchase. 

[Ret MP]

1 minute ago, Charles4515 said:

 

I am not talking about law enforcement. We know they are trained to treat everyone as guilty. I also don't doubt that  there are passengers who don't report purchases.  I have also heard sales people in port suggest not reporting purchases. The cruise line knows about the purchases, they reported them. Guest relations can send a notice to the passenger reminding them that duty may be due for their onboard purchase. 

Well, you quoted me and I said a couple of times in this thread that I'm not discussing the policies and procedures of a non-Law Enforcement entity.  I don't know their procedures and I don't care about their procedures.  And you did directly mention things that only law enforcement, in this event CBP, does, like collecting the taxes and charge people with a criminal act.  AND, I'm sure the Royal's crew only did what CBP was asking of them.  So, I don't fault Royal or their crew a bit.  

 

It seems that we are going around in circles again, repeating the same thing over and over again.  I'm sure that if you go back to several other posts, you will find where I answered/explained as best as I can and I think factually.  Take it or leave it, period.

[Charles4515]

14 minutes ago, Seville2Cabo said:

I guess it has changed and maybe port dependent. We’ve come thru customs 3 time over limit. 2 watches and one time earrings. Declared the item and they said enjoy. All were over the $4k of the op. The paper work was not worth the fee. 
On our last 3 cruise, the immigration officer asked us if we had anything to declare, we said no. 

 

I have meticulously reported all overseas purchases, kept the reciept and never had to pay any duty. i don't think that means they were overlooking duty owed. Even though the amount was over $4000 there are different rates based on category and origin. The common person is not going to be able to figure out what they owe. Busness people who import and export for a living probably could figure it out. And of sourse cutoms agents. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Charles4515

[BND]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:04 PM, Donsyb said:

Someone was complaining on FB about this too, they had bought a ring and had the same situation. They kept saying RC lied to them that they didn’t have to pay tax - not sure of it was just their misunderstanding or if they were missold.

Royal doesn't own/run the shops.  

[Donsyb]

4 minutes ago, BND said:

Royal doesn't own/run the shops.  

I never said they did. However they have a responsibility to make sure staff in those shops are not mis-selling to their customers on their ships.

The person said they specifically asked about customs and was told there was no tax and they didn’t need to fill in a form - they weren’t told Royal would report the sale and they’d pulled aside and questioned at customs.  If they had they could have pre-filled the form and would have been prepared for what happened.

 

Royal should be taking it up with the management of the shops.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Donsyb

[nelblu]

18 hours ago, reallyitsmema said:

 

You aren't a newbie.  You have filled out the form in the past.  We make sure we have all the information we need prior to traveling so we do not have any issues.  Being stopped by customs and not being prepared with our declaration form and duty owed is not something we want to happen as it could effect a family members job.  We do our homework prior to traveling.  The thing is, nothing has changed other than they no longer pass out the form to everyone.  

I'm familiar with the simplicity of the past processes with regards to exceeding the allowable amounts.  But, as far as I know no one was prevented from disembarking.  The final accounting occurred at Customs.

 

My son was not stopped by Customs as you indicate in your post.  It would be understandable if that was the case.  He was stopped by Royal Security and led by his nose to some unknown dark secret.  We had no idea that it was Custom's related.

 

As indicted by one of my posts, I did not know that he had bought a watch, until the Agent asked him for the receipt.

 

You seem to be knowledgeable so please educate me as to the current workflow so I can get my hands around how it can be prevented from happening in the future.

 

Does one go to Guest Services and get a declaration form.   The form gets filled out with details and then what?  Does one show the completed declaration form to Royal security and then what?  Does this action allow affected passenger unimpeded to proceed to luggage pen and then to facial recognition and then on to Customs Office.  Or is it the norm that purchase(s) exceeding the allowance, gets the individual escorted from ship to Customs directly.  I'm guessing so kindly fill in the blanks.

 

Ps.  The Custom Agents acted in a very friendly and professional matter.  They understood that this was an act of omission and not an act of smuggling, as some poster called my son.  As a matter of fact, he had a sense of humor.  My DIL was getting exasperated as she could not explain to her daughter what was going on and began mouthing.  The Agent interviewing my son joked and tells him, "We are so glad that we (Agents)are in sound-proof offices."

[foxgoodrich]

My suggestion would be to get the CBP form 6059B (the blue and white customs declaration form that used to be left in your cabin) from Guest Services any time you purchase an expensive item (above $800) onboard.  The forms are in a rack on the wall at GS usually, along with other printed information and print copies of the Cruise Compass.  If you have that form filled out, in advance,  you should be able to simply show it and proceed to Customs.  (I believe you can also execute your CBP 6095B online and show it on your phone or tablet, but I don't know from my own experience.)  If you know you've already settled your onboard account with Guest Services, you could assume it would be a Customs reporting inquiry that caused the flagging.

 

It sounds like the specific ship you were on did adhere to the US law by reporting the purchase of an item above the $800 limit onboard (your son was flagged), but they did not have good protocols worked out with the port Customs officials to efficiently handle the collection of duty in an expedient and professional manner.   I don't know if there  are protocols which are supposed to be implemented on a fleet wide basis or if it's the individual ship Captain's prerogative to determine how to handle situations like  yours.  I've never made an onboard purchase that exceeded $800, so I have no personal experience on how such things are handled.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by foxgoodrich
spelling

[reallyitsmema]

35 minutes ago, nelblu said:

I'm familiar with the simplicity of the past processes with regards to exceeding the allowable amounts.  But, as far as I know no one was prevented from disembarking.  The final accounting occurred at Customs.

 

My son was not stopped by Customs as you indicate in your post.  It would be understandable if that was the case.  He was stopped by Royal Security and led by his nose to some unknown dark secret.  We had no idea that it was Custom's related.

 

As indicted by one of my posts, I did not know that he had bought a watch, until the Agent asked him for the receipt.

 

You seem to be knowledgeable so please educate me as to the current workflow so I can get my hands around how it can be prevented from happening in the future.

 

Does one go to Guest Services and get a declaration form.   The form gets filled out with details and then what?  Does one show the completed declaration form to Royal security and then what?  Does this action allow affected passenger unimpeded to proceed to luggage pen and then to facial recognition and then on to Customs Office.  Or is it the norm that purchase(s) exceeding the allowance, gets the individual escorted from ship to Customs directly.  I'm guessing so kindly fill in the blanks.

 

Ps.  The Custom Agents acted in a very friendly and professional matter.  They understood that this was an act of omission and not an act of smuggling, as some poster called my son.  As a matter of fact, he had a sense of humor.  My DIL was getting exasperated as she could not explain to her daughter what was going on and began mouthing.  The Agent interviewing my son joked and tells him, "We are so glad that we (Agents)are in sound-proof offices."

 

Your son was flagged by customs and that information was put in the ship's security system and he was flagged as he was exiting the ship.  The ship was trying to clear passengers and they needed to present your son to customs in order for the ship to clear.  I know you didn't like the procedure but that is how it is handled in that port.

 

As far as it happening in the future, it is simple, if you exceed your exemption fill out the form.  Check the app that I pointed out to you before and see if you can electronically submit that for in the future so you don't get stopped.  If you do get stopped, go to customs and declare the purchase.  

 

No one is going to stand at the front of the line disembarking the ship and explain what is happening.  Whatever agency that has flagged you will play their hand when it is time.  You were all led away to customs because that is what the issue was and the problem was handled.  

 

Sorry it caused drama with your son's family but he is an adult and he should have been able to explain to his family what the issue was and have his receipts in order.

[meadowlander]

20 hours ago, Airbear232 said:

Did anyone not look at FAQs on Royal’s website?  
 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/are-the-onboard-shops-duty-free

Nor did they look at the departure information left in the cabin which states "guests are subject to the customs allowance of their country. US guests(returning to the US) purchases up to $800.

 

A simple inquiry at guest services would have avoided all the drama. It is called personal responsibility.

[PWP-001]

12 minutes ago, meadowlander said:

Nor did they look at the departure information left in the cabin which states "guests are subject to the customs allowance of their country. US guests(returning to the US) purchases up to $800.

 

A simple inquiry at guest services would have avoided all the drama. It is called personal responsibility.

How easy it is to climb on a soap box and wag one's finger preaching personal responsibility.

 

We've already covered that ignorance of the law is no excuse.  Yet it seems from a number of posts here that many people are unaware or have forgotten since the customs form is not typically a part of cruise disembarkation like it used to be.

 

RCL is in the service industry, and anything simple that they can do to help their guests should be considered an extension of good service.

 

Imagine if you were to take the elevator down from your apartment, stop to talk with the concierge, and then walk off without picking your phone off the desk.  How would you feel upon returning 30 minutes later to find your phone on the desk and have the concierge state:  "oh, I watched you walk off and leave it there.  I could have said something, but you should learn to be a little more responsible with your valuables."  How would you feel towards the concierge, knowing they could have simply said:  "Excuse me, don't forget your phone," 30 minutes earlier?

 

It's really that simple, just as in my example.

 

RCL and every other cruise line is in the position where they could simply do a better job at informing passengers two nights prior to disembarkation.  I bet it would save a good deal of time and embarrassment for guests.  It might even increase duty fees collected from those who didn't know and otherwise might slip through the cracks.

 

And should the cruise line  include information for passengers from every developed country in the world?  NO:  common sense should prevail.  How difficult would it be for them to have this info available for USA, EU, UK and Canada-- or whichever countries their data shows at top countries for passengers.  For cruises disembarking in Asia, have it available for that particular country.

 

Of course this idea of courtesy on behalf of the cruise line would be a waste of time for those who are so personally responsible that they have informed themselves of every rule, regulation and practice that could even impact themselves.  But in their omniscient state, they are also aware that the majority of passengers would appreciate and benefit by this information.  Furthermore, they would also know that it's fruitless to change that human behavior. 

[Ret MP]

SMH

[cruisequeen4ever]

The shoppies should prepare potential buyers or at the very least, buyers after they make the purchase that they are going to be stopped by customs and need to prepare to pay the tax when they disembark. On Princess, they’re very clear about that with buying alcohol beyond the limit. It’s only right to prepare customers for such a situation. I’m sorry your son went through that.

[PWP-001]

6 minutes ago, cruisequeen4ever said:

The shoppies should prepare potential buyers or at the very least, buyers after they make the purchase that they are going to be stopped by customs and need to prepare to pay the tax when they disembark. On Princess, they’re very clear about that with buying alcohol beyond the limit. It’s only right to prepare customers for such a situation. I’m sorry your son went through that.

 

Good idea and good service on behalf of  Princess.

 

 

[John&LaLa]

Happened to us twice. No big deal, but a bit of a surprise first time. We ended up owing nothing because Effy jewelry is made in the US.

 

Actually it can be a quick way to avoid the long lines sometimes😉

 

Personal escort 😁

 

And I do agree, the shops should do a better job explaining what will happen

[GatorGirl1313]

On 10/22/2022 at 8:18 AM, Ret MP said:

Okay, you obviously have nothing to do with Law Enforcement or Criminal Law.  We're just going around and around in circles.  Last word, unless you or anybody else comes up with something that is worthy of further discussion, IT IS EVERYBODY'S RESPONSIBILITY TO OBEY THE LAW, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".  

Finally....someone who has read every federal and state law and our 75,000 page tax code.  At least I'm assuming you have because you would need to in order to ensure you fully obey and understand every law. 

 

Or what about those arcane laws that never actually get enforced?  In South Carolina it's illegal to tell a woman you will marry her and not follow through.  In Texas it's illegal to take more than 3 sips of beer while standing. Every beer drinking Texan has likely broken this law.  Should these citizens know these laws and follow them? Have they violated their duty to know and obey the law? Are they criminals?

 

Of course not. It's entirely reasonable to believe that 100 percent of us have a gap in knowledge when in comes to our legal codes and laws.  Or we don't know which ones are still enforced. We shouldn't be treated like criminals for innocent mistakes.  Had the proper information been presented to the watch buyer he would have never made that mistake.  And just because the information was somewhere online doesn't mean he knew where to find it.  After all, thousands of Texans will likely break the beer law tomorrow despite me clearly posting it online for them today 🤣

[papaflamingo]

We had a similar thing happen a number of years ago.  My wife bought a pair of earrings on board and when we were in the long line to get off the ship, and scanned our sea passes, we go the "bong" and a ships agent came over.  She escorted us around the line to luggage, assisted us in claiming our luggage, then escorted us to a separate customs area where we showed our receipt.  Paid the duty (it was not very much) and headed to the car.  EASIEST debarkation EVER!  Saved a lot of time getting a personal escort off the ship and through Customs.  

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by papaflamingo

[desibee]

On 10/22/2022 at 8:37 PM, Ret MP said:

And the rest are innocent, too, I guess.  My statement was that if you ask them in jail, a very high percentage of them, they'll tell you that they are innocent, fact, not speculation.  And I agreed that not everyone are criminals.  However, those that were/are in jail erroneously, they were put their by a jury of their piers and in some cases by a lack of competent legal representation and in some cases by less than stellar prosecution and law enforcement and some by all the above.  I'll never deny that.  But, none of that has to do with the OP's event.  In fact, he was sent on his way without incident or a criminal report being made.  And there was no "Perp Walk".  

Some of them were probably put there by incompetent policing.  I'd say a good chunk anyway.  

[nelblu]

1 hour ago, papaflamingo said:

We had a similar thing happen a number of years ago.  My wife bought a pair of earrings on board and when we were in the long line to get off the ship, and scanned our sea passes, we go the "bong" and a ships agent came over.  She escorted us around the line to luggage, assisted us in claiming our luggage, then escorted us to a separate customs area where we showed our receipt.  Paid the duty (it was not very much) and headed to the car.  EASIEST debarkation EVER!  Saved a lot of time getting a personal escort off the ship and through Customs.  

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. 

I guess it is based on how a situation is perceived.  Yours was positive, ours was not.

 

Were you aware or had a clue that it was due to a purchase made on board. 

 

Also, as my son was escorted there were no lines to avoid (other than getting to the front via the Key program) as he was at the seapass scanning stage when he was bonged.  Both my son and the Royal member had to wade with/thru other passengers disembarking, with us trying to keep up.  In addition, no special assistance in claiming our luggage. 

 

Other than this incident, we had a spectacular cruise with beautiful weather (other than half a day of rain), entertainment, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[Charles4515]

1 hour ago, desibee said:

Some of them were probably put there by incompetent policing.  I'd say a good chunk anyway.  

The individual police are just cogs in a machine. Incompetent justice system not individual police officers, i.e. those who bring the cases to court.....

[BND]

On 10/22/2022 at 10:21 PM, Seville2Cabo said:

I guess it has changed and maybe port dependent. We’ve come thru customs 3 time over limit. 2 watches and one time earrings. Declared the item and they said enjoy. All were over the $4k of the op. The paper work was not worth the fee. 
On our last 3 cruise, the immigration officer asked us if we had anything to declare, we said no. 

We have had the same experience a couple of times.  We were over our limit and they just told us to have a nice day.  But that was about 10 years ago.  In all of our cruises, we have never seen anyone stopped at debarkation so it's not all that common.  We buy our jewelry and watches at a store we've been going to for years. It was not recommended by the cruise line or other cruisers.  It's a small family owned chain in St Thoma, St. Maarten and  Key West that was recommended by the President of the Co my DH used to work for.  They do not report to anyone and never ask for our ship/cabin info.  We always try to stay under our limit.  Prices have gone up a bit the last couple of years so that's getting harder to do.   I do wonder when the US will raise the $ limit as it's been the same for years.  We never buy cigarettes (no reason to, absolutely no one we know smokes) and have only brought back liquor one time (two bottles-Christmas presents for our sons).  CBP usually asks about cigarettes and liquor and we can always truthfully say no.  Those interest them a lot more than t-shirts and magnets and apparently even jewelry.

Edited October 24, 2022 by BND

[Ret MP]

3 hours ago, GatorGirl1313 said:

Finally....someone who has read every federal and state law and our 75,000 page tax code.  At least I'm assuming you have because you would need to in order to ensure you fully obey and understand every law. 

 

Or what about those arcane laws that never actually get enforced?  In South Carolina it's illegal to tell a woman you will marry her and not follow through.  In Texas it's illegal to take more than 3 sips of beer while standing. Every beer drinking Texan has likely broken this law.  Should these citizens know these laws and follow them? Have they violated their duty to know and obey the law? Are they criminals?

 

Of course not. It's entirely reasonable to believe that 100 percent of us have a gap in knowledge when in comes to our legal codes and laws.  Or we don't know which ones are still enforced. We shouldn't be treated like criminals for innocent mistakes.  Had the proper information been presented to the watch buyer he would have never made that mistake.  And just because the information was somewhere online doesn't mean he knew where to find it.  After all, thousands of Texans will likely break the beer law tomorrow despite me clearly posting it online for them today 🤣

Talk about an over reaction and exaggeration, WOW!  NO ONE said that anybody/everybody should be knowledgeable of every page of every law out there.  Hell, I know I am not.  What I've said and have eluded to is that the information is out there, if you are interested in trying to stay out of issues.  AND BTW, Royal does inform it's passengers to research the DUTY requirements for their home country.  I'm very active on my cell phone.  For example:  I didn't know the laws about transporting Mesquite wood from Texas to Alabama, I wanted to use in my fire pit, so I got out my handy dandy cell phone and went to each state's website and looked at their laws about introducing and burning out of state wood.  I don't know the local construction codes, I call or look-up what I need before I build or modify.  I wanted to run power to my shed, I called to get them come out to see where the underground utilities are, before I dig.  I could go on and on.  But, nothing I have and could give examples to is something that you or anybody else can't do.  It's really simple, all it take is a call or a search, as I've stated/eluded to.  I NEVER SAID YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE SHOULD KNOW ALL THE LAWS or even that I know all the laws!

 

In this event, the OP's, there was no harm, no foul.  We don't know what went on behind the scenes at the CPB office, we don't know why they did what they did, we don't know if the subject is on a watch list, and we only have the one side of the story.  CBP, obviously, didn't find any "criminal" intent (intent is a key word here) and let the subject go.  I'm sure we all want our Law Enforcement do their job, if they followed all laws and regulations, they are doing their job.  There was a reason for what they did.  It could have been something like at the airport when TSA pulls you out of the line for further inspection/investigation only because you were chosen for a random inspection/investigation which can happen even if you are Pre-Check, Global, or King of the Universe.  The important part of this is that WE, none of us, know what or why they initiated further inspection/investigation. 

 

Again, no one expects anyone to be knowledgeable about every law, regulation or whatever that is out there.  That is one reason why the law gives the Law Enforcement Officer/system discretion.  And yes, once you break a law, that makes you are an offender, some civil, some criminal.  Just because you weren't caught doesn't change anything.  And some times a crime may have been committed but the "intent" (if it is a requirement of the crime) can't be established/proven.  And generally, intent can't be proven until you actually talk to the subject.  Hence, being pulled aside and asked questions.  There are many crimes that don't require ANY intent at all, the mere fact that you did it is the crime, doesn't matter why.