Should Silversea be concerned about Crystal?

[ak1004]

8 hours ago, alithecat said:

What concerned us the most was the large size of the ship, which dictated where it could tender and dock. We felt like we were part of a mob scene leaving the ship on arrival at every port, and the ship was too big to dock in locations close to several of the cities we visited. We spent 2+ hours on a bus getting from the ship into Bangkok, and when we finally got there, we saw a lovely small Silversea ship docked right there. Same with the location of the dock in Saigon. It was in a commercial port far away from the city, while smaller ships were able to dock much closer. To each his own, I know, but for us, we prefer to cruise on Silversea and Seabourn.

 

This is a very good point, but I assume you are referring to the older and smaller SS ships? The newer ships are larger and almost the same size as Crystal. Can newer SS ships go to the ports you mentioned?

 

On a related point, many people say they prefer smaller ships in terms of number of passengers, but to me what really matters is passenger to space ratio. Oceania Riviera with 1,250 passengers felt more spacious than Oceania Regatta with 700 passengers. Crystal had one of the highest ratios - https://www2.cruisewatch.com/top-10/ships-space-ratio/

[ak1004]

9 hours ago, turtlemichael said:

I do admire your arguing skills ak1004.  But you do not speak for me. I value service, food, fellow passengers, itineraries, price and, to a lesser extent, entertainment. But I also seriously value a decent size cabin. I have not sailed on old Crystal but have on Seabourn, Regent and Silversea and in reality, I do not think there is significant differences between those three I have great trips on all of them. In earlier days I sailed on lines with small cabins. I was put off Crystal by the size of the base cabins and will continue to be put off if that does not change. We are all different.

 

But decent size definition varies among different people. I call 160 sqft small but 210 decent. You would probably call 210 small but 300 decent while I would consider 300 huge. In fact, I would consider 300 sqft more than I need, which means I'm paying for something I don't really need. 

 

In the same way, many people consider an all inclusive line a big advantage, but if you don't drink and don't use the ship excursions, then with SS you are paying for something you don't use or need.

[Host Jazzbeau]

One thing that doesn't bother me at all is the age of the ships.  In fact our #1 favorite cruise line is Noble Caledonia, which sails the first-gen Renaissance ships built in 1990.  But those ships only carry ~100 passengers and can dock anywhere!  And none of their cabins are small by @ak1004's standards – but even so we notice the difference between the Deluxe Balcony at 20.9 sq m (225 sq ft) and the Owner's Balcony Suite at 22 sq m (237 sq ft).  Same furniture, but that little bit of extra elbow room makes a huge difference to us.

[geoffieg]

One point that needs to be considered about the new Crystal.  Given ownership and the management being poached from Silversea, it would seem possible that the new Crystal will be a lot more like SS than the old Crystal.  Until the Crystal ships are retrofitted and start sailing again, we won't know how big or small the cabins will be, nor will we know if the shipboard experience is Crystal or SS.  Just because they were formerly Crystal ships does not mean the food, service, enrichment and entertainment will reflect the former Crystal.

[AtA]

14 hours ago, ak1004 said:

Luxury means different things to different people. To me, there are three main pillars that define a cruise experience:

 

1. Service.
2. Food
3. Entertainment/enrichment programs.

 

Crystal was the only line that exceeded in all three those pillars. This is why it had such huge following, and this is why many of Crystal fans didn't really care about those "tiny" 210 sqft cabins. This is why it was always ranked among the top 3 cruise lines, despite the "tiny" cabins. And this is why SS and other luxury lines should be concerned. 

In reality, my PH on Crystal cost less than the regular cabin I just had on a SS cruise. By a lot! And there was always something to do if one wanted to. And yes, even the worst butler on Crystal was better than the butler we had on SS.

[AtA]

22 minutes ago, geoffieg said:

One point that needs to be considered about the new Crystal.  Given ownership and the management being poached from Silversea, it would seem possible that the new Crystal will be a lot more like SS than the old Crystal.  Until the Crystal ships are retrofitted and start sailing again, we won't know how big or small the cabins will be, nor will we know if the shipboard experience is Crystal or SS.  Just because they were formerly Crystal ships does not mean the food, service, enrichment and entertainment will reflect the former Crystal.

Manfredi did say originally he wanted to recreate what made Crystal great. Let's hope he does.

[Host Jazzbeau]

20 minutes ago, AtA said:

In reality, my PH on Crystal cost less than the regular cabin I just had on a SS cruise. By a lot! And there was always something to do if one wanted to. And yes, even the worst butler on Crystal was better than the butler we had on SS.

That's why Crystal never made a profit.  I doubt that A&K intends to copy that part of Crystal!

[AtA]

20 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

That's why Crystal never made a profit.  I doubt that A&K intends to copy that part of Crystal!

But the PH on Crystal was the same size as the regular cabin with butler on SS.

[FlyerTalker]

Heard onboard a while back:

 

Do you know why the cabins on Silversea are larger?  Because people need to spend more time there, since there's nothing going on around the ship.

[drron29]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:34 AM, Host Jazzbeau said:

That's why Crystal never made a profit.  I doubt that A&K intends to copy that part of Crystal!

And I wonder how much Crystal prices would have risen if they hadn't gone bankrupt. I don't see Manfredi being ultra generous.

[SWFLAOK]

On 11/12/2022 at 2:13 PM, AtA said:

In reality, my PH on Crystal cost less than the regular cabin I just had on a SS cruise. By a lot! And there was always something to do if one wanted to. And yes, even the worst butler on Crystal was better than the butler we had on SS.

We never sailed on Crystal, because we don't like a small cabin with a lot of activities to do elsewhere onboard. We especially don't like lessons, or watching movies in the a theater type environment. While I love to cook at home, and have taken cooking lessons in the past at culinary schools, I don't want to do that when I'm on vacation. And I would rather watch a movie in my cabin. We also didn't see it as being an economical cruise compared to the other cruises we were doing. And the ships were too large for us, with over 900 passengers. We've only been on 1 cruise with that many passengers, and it was a 1 and done on HAL.

We sailed to the Amazon from Barbados and back on Silver Whisper in2018. We sailed in a Silver Suite which was 500 sq feet of luxury. There were a few days at sea along the way, and long passages on the Amazon, and we enjoyed watching them from our cabin, while enjoying our favorite beverages which were restocked in our cabin whenever they became close to needing to be. My brother was onboard as well in a smaller cabin. He had a plumbing problem in his bathroom that they were unable to fix in several tries. They moved him to another cabin, and while he packed everything in his cabin, his butler moved everything to his new cabin and unpacked everything to the same places they came from in his previous cabin. We didn't always feel like dressing up for formal night, so we sometimes had dinner in our cabin. Our butler served our meals and his service was flawless, and my brother was always welcomed by our butler to have meals in our cabin. He was the best butler we've ever had.

[SWFLAOK]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:16 AM, ak1004 said:

 

This is a very good point, but I assume you are referring to the older and smaller SS ships? The newer ships are larger and almost the same size as Crystal. Can newer SS ships go to the ports you mentioned?

 

On a related point, many people say they prefer smaller ships in terms of number of passengers, but to me what really matters is passenger to space ratio. Oceania Riviera with 1,250 passengers felt more spacious than Oceania Regatta with 700 passengers. Crystal had one of the highest ratios - https://www2.cruisewatch.com/top-10/ships-space-ratio/

The newer SS ships are still small enough to go into smaller ports, and still have a high space to passenger ratio. Silver Dawn has a maximum passengers of 596,and  a crew of 411. Silver Whisper, Silver Shadow, Silver Muse (a sister ship to Dawn), the Seabourn Odyssey and Encore, and the RSSC Explorer and Mariner all have significantly fewer passengers than the Crystal Serenity, and have a higher passenger space ratio.

Obviously, what's left of Crystal still has it's fans, but they're not looking for a luxury cruise. They looking for a very nice cruise at a reasonable price, and some comforting nostalgia onboard a ship they've known and loved in the past. Those that are really looking for a luxury cruise will stay with Silversea, or try out RSSC or Seabourn.

[ak1004]

8 minutes ago, SWFLAOK said:

The newer SS ships are still small enough to go into smaller ports, and still have a high space to passenger ratio. Silver Dawn has a maximum passengers of 596,and  a crew of 411. Silver Whisper, Silver Shadow, Silver Muse (a sister ship to Dawn), the Seabourn Odyssey and Encore, and the RSSC Explorer and Mariner all have significantly fewer passengers than the Crystal Serenity, and have a higher passenger space ratio.

Obviously, what's left of Crystal still has it's fans, but they're not looking for a luxury cruise. They looking for a very nice cruise at a reasonable price, and some comforting nostalgia onboard a ship they've known and loved in the past. Those that are really looking for a luxury cruise will stay with Silversea, or try out RSSC or Seabourn.

 

I didn't sail on SS yet (will be my first next month), but our Crystal sailing was as luxury as it gets. Besides of the cabin size, everything else was outstanding. 

 

In terms of passenger space ratio, Crystal Serenity was actually ranked #7 if you look at the link I shared, very close to the Spirit and Muse. The ability to go to smaller ports is obviously a big advantage, but this is not necessarily what defines luxury. Azamara ships have 700 passengers, but I don't think anyone would put them in the same category as SS.

 

Of course nobody knows at this point how the new Crystal will look, but they succeed to keep the same level of service, food, entertainment etc. then they will definitely be in the same class as Silversea, RSSC or Seabourn.

[ak1004]

46 minutes ago, drron29 said:

And I wonder how much Crystal prices would have risen if they hadn't gone bankrupt. I don't see Manfredi being ultra generous.

 

Well, obviously they will have to stay competitive and have the pricing significantly lower than SS, at least for the entry level cabins - otherwise who would book a 210 sqft cabin if they can book 310 sqft for the same price (and get butler and unlimited caviar as an added bonus)? Everything has its price.

[AtA]

1 hour ago, SWFLAOK said:

We never sailed on Crystal, because we don't like a small cabin with a lot of activities to do elsewhere onboard. We especially don't like lessons, or watching movies in the a theater type environment. While I love to cook at home, and have taken cooking lessons in the past at culinary schools, I don't want to do that when I'm on vacation. And I would rather watch a movie in my cabin. We also didn't see it as being an economical cruise compared to the other cruises we were doing. And the ships were too large for us, with over 900 passengers. We've only been on 1 cruise with that many passengers, and it was a 1 and done on HAL.

We sailed to the Amazon from Barbados and back on Silver Whisper in2018. We sailed in a Silver Suite which was 500 sq feet of luxury. There were a few days at sea along the way, and long passages on the Amazon, and we enjoyed watching them from our cabin, while enjoying our favorite beverages which were restocked in our cabin whenever they became close to needing to be. My brother was onboard as well in a smaller cabin. He had a plumbing problem in his bathroom that they were unable to fix in several tries. They moved him to another cabin, and while he packed everything in his cabin, his butler moved everything to his new cabin and unpacked everything to the same places they came from in his previous cabin. We didn't always feel like dressing up for formal night, so we sometimes had dinner in our cabin. Our butler served our meals and his service was flawless, and my brother was always welcomed by our butler to have meals in our cabin. He was the best butler we've ever had.

I'm glad your butler service was good because ours on Whisper was less than we had come to expect on Crystal. And in reality, I felt that the public spaces on Crystal were more spacious than on Whisper. And with a lack of liquors (my partner couldn't get a sazerac or a ginger cosmo because of a lack of the ingredients), food that at lunch and breakfast was less than stellar (hockey puck hamburgers for example), less than stellar service in the main dining room until we became friends with someone who had sailed something like 100 cruises on SS, a lack of anything to do during the day on sea days, etc, we felt the price did not warrant what we received.

[AtA]

30 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

 

Of course nobody knows at this point how the new Crystal will look, but they succeed to keep the same level of service, food, entertainment etc. then they will definitely be in the same class as Silversea, RSSC or Seabourn.

Actually if they keep all that, they will be ahead of those lines.

[commodoredave]

Based on my experience after sailing multiple times with Regent, Seabourn, Silversea and Crystal, is that Crystal was similar in quality to those 3 other luxury lines. In my opinion, the only drawback with Crystal was cabin size, which may be addressed with the ship renovations now taking place. I would love to see Crystal return as a genuine competitive threat to Regent, Seabourn and Silversea as competition brings out the best in everyone, and gives the consumer more choice.

[ak1004]

5 minutes ago, commodoredave said:

Based on my experience after sailing multiple times with Regent, Seabourn, Silversea and Crystal, is that Crystal was similar in quality to those 3 other luxury lines. In my opinion, the only drawback with Crystal was cabin size, which may be addressed with the ship renovations now taking place. I would love to see Crystal return as a genuine competitive threat to Regent, Seabourn and Silversea as competition brings out the best in everyone, and gives the consumer more choice.

 

Excellent comment, and most "expert" reviews would put those 4 lines very close in terms of overall quality.

 

My question is how can they change the cabin size? Wouldn't it require some serious structural changes, like re positioning all windows, verandas, doors, plumbing etc?

[Texas Tillie]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

 

Excellent comment, and most "expert" reviews would put those 4 lines very close in terms of overall quality.

 

My question is how can they change the cabin size? Wouldn't it require some serious structural changes, like re positioning all windows, verandas, doors, plumbing etc?

 

They took 3 regular sized cabins and turned them into the Seabreeze Penthouses. Seems like that would be possible again on Serenity. Symphony might be a bigger problem as there are so many cabins without verandas. For those of us who are solo travelers, that might be good news as it might allow solo fares to be "reasonable".

[ak1004]

4 minutes ago, Texas Tillie said:

 

They took 3 regular sized cabins and turned them into the Seabreeze Penthouses. Seems like that would be possible again on Serenity. Symphony might be a bigger problem as there are so many cabins without verandas. For those of us who are solo travelers, that might be good news as it might allow solo fares to be "reasonable".

 

But that means eliminating regular sized cabins at all? And if they take even 2 regular cabins and merge them, then the minimal size will be over 400 sqft.

 

If they do it this way, then cabins without verandas are not an issue - they just merge them and each cabin will have two windows instead of one. But it's hard to believe that they will do it and entry level cabins will be over 400 sqft. Turning 3 cabins into 2 makes more sense, but this might be much more difficult. We will see.

[Dolcevita Diva]

I never sailed with Crystal, although I looked at several voyages and have a few friends who are brand devotees (although they have not tried Seabourn, Silversea or Regent) and encouraged me to give it a try.   Although I was open to trying Crystal and routinely obtained quotes for voyages, several things held me back:

1) I sometimes cruise solo and even when cruising with solo friends, we book individual cabins/suites. Whenever Crystal had a promotion for reduced single supplements, the offer was only available for the lowest cabin categories and never seemed to be an option for veranda cabins. Silversea allows us to book any of the Veranda categories (and on occasion a higher category) at the reduced single supplement rate.

2) Butler service - my understanding is that on Crystal, butler service is only available for the higher suite categories, which I was not able to book on Crystal at a reduced single supplement rate.  To me, Silversea’s butler service sends a strong signal of “vacation” - having someone else to simply take care of things and occasionally surprise and delight     is a lovely departure from everyday life.  Even the one time that my butler was a dud.

3) Cabin size - 300 sq. ft. at a minimum. It’s simply more comfortable/spacious. 
 

All of the additional enrichment has mixed appeal to me.  Top- notch lectures and entertainment - sounds fabulous.  Cooking classes and wine tasting? Highly appealing.  
Knitting or computer lessons??? That sounds like “going to camp.”

At the same time, some if the recent changes in Silversea’s offering, especially the restrictions on Port-to-Port fares make many of us more interested in trying other lines.   
It will be intriguing to see how Manfredi structures the overall offering and physical plant. If he’s able to combine the most popular elements of Crystal and Silversea, the new Crystal will have much broader appeal.  At the very least, there will be very high levels of trial from both Crystal and Silversea fans, as well as those who prefer the other luxury and premium lines.  If the new Crystal offers a similar approach to Silversea for lower single supplement cabins, I will certainly give it a try. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Dolcevita Diva

[Dolcevita Diva]

40 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

But that means eliminating regular sized cabins at all? And if they take even 2 regular cabins and merge them, then the minimal size will be over 400 sqft.

 

If they do it this way, then cabins without verandas are not an issue - they just merge them and each cabin will have two windows instead of one. But it's hard to believe that they will do it and entry level cabins will be over 400 sqft. Turning 3 cabins into 2 makes more sense, but this might be much more difficult. We will see.

Here’s a thought. Remember, Silversea “stretched” the Spirit by inserting an entire new section of the ship.  The same could be done in the Crystal ships, but in this case possibly replacing a section with a newly configured one. That would also allow the addition of verandas. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Dolcevita Diva

[commodoredave]

4 hours ago, ak1004 said:

 

Excellent comment, and most "expert" reviews would put those 4 lines very close in terms of overall quality.

 

My question is how can they change the cabin size? Wouldn't it require some serious structural changes, like re positioning all windows, verandas, doors, plumbing etc?

According to this story in July from Travel Weekly, they are combing some staterooms to make larger ones. This should increase the number of larger cabins.

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/First-revelation-Crystal-ship-renovation

[ak1004]

22 minutes ago, commodoredave said:

According to this story in July from Travel Weekly, they are combing some staterooms to make larger ones. This should increase the number of larger cabins.

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/First-revelation-Crystal-ship-renovation

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

I guess this is the big difference between lines like Crystal/SS and lines like Celebrity. When Crystal goes to dry dock, they reduce the number of cabins and increase the public areas. When Celebrity goes to dry dock, they add cabins and eliminate libraries and art galleries.  

[Texas Tillie]

2 hours ago, ak1004 said:

 

But that means eliminating regular sized cabins at all? And if they take even 2 regular cabins and merge them, then the minimal size will be over 400 sqft.

 

If they do it this way, then cabins without verandas are not an issue - they just merge them and each cabin will have two windows instead of one. But it's hard to believe that they will do it and entry level cabins will be over 400 sqft. Turning 3 cabins into 2 makes more sense, but this might be much more difficult. We will see.

 

I reread what I posted and realized that I left out a word, they took 3 regular cabins and made TWO Seabreeze Penthouses.