HAL Next New Build

[CNSJ]

During and in the immediate aftermath of COVID, cruise lines were not in a rush to get orders for new ships into shipyards.  Now that COVID is getting further behind us (I know its not over yet!) cruise lines may soon start thinking about the fleets they will need in 2025 and beyond.  That said:

 

1.  What size (tonnage and passengers) and special features do you think should be in the next HAL new Build?  Feel free to use an existing class as a basis.

 

2.  What do you predict that HAL will build when they next submit an order to Fincantieri?  This might not match your answer to question 1. 

 

Perhaps HAL executives monitor this site and will at least read your inputs. 

[REOVA]

HAL has a history of long voyages and "ocean liners". It's will greatly depend on CCL's  future with its brand but they should build smaller ships and incorporate new features (like Dutch Cafe, Alternative restaurants, etc) but return to the prominade decks with loungers. They already have Pinnacle Class ships for shorter itineraries in various regions but need to return to more Grand Voyages (or 20+ days not just B2B) with quality entertainment. They can easily beat competition with a price point lower than luxury (seaborn) and better define itself from Princess and Carnival. With ports limiting ship sizes, this will be a niche HAL can succeed in. 

[tjcox9]

35 minutes ago, REOVA said:

HAL has a history of long voyages and "ocean liners". It's will greatly depend on CCL's  future with its brand but they should build smaller ships and incorporate new features (like Dutch Cafe, Alternative restaurants, etc) but return to the prominade decks with loungers. They already have Pinnacle Class ships for shorter itineraries in various regions but need to return to more Grand Voyages (or 20+ days not just B2B) with quality entertainment. They can easily beat competition with a price point lower than luxury (seaborn) and better define itself from Princess and Carnival. With ports limiting ship sizes, this will be a niche HAL can succeed in. 

Pretty sure they won't build anything smaller since they already pretty much run Seabourn. 

[OlsSalt]

IMHO: R-Class is the best sweet spot for HAL ships, traditions, itineraries and ambiance.  

 

1200-1400 passengers, and full libraries.  Transition the Pinnacle "steak restaurant" into more of a pan Asian hybrid since the Dutch Empire once touched many Southern Asia lands.

 

Be a travelers ship; not a hotel/entertainment ship.  Don't compete with "luxury" brands, many still want just good basics with fewer frills that won't require extra space for additional staff and crew. 

 

(R Class) Zaandam, Volendam, former Rotterdam and Amsterdam. 

[Dobby36]

I predict it will be something smaller than Pinnacle class, given they have retired some of the smaller oldest ones.  My rationale is they see the premiums that smaller ship lines can demand, and they can maybe even devise a "brand within a brand" concept, or something to so the Pinnacle class remains biggest, but some to-be-named class would be the most luxurious (or at least the HAL equivalent of it).  They have the chops to run global voyages, and the clientele to fill longer ones.  

 

However, in the Dec 2022 earnings call, CCL said they are not putting any new ships on order for many brands, likely until 2026 and that puts any new build out toward a 2030 timeline:  https://cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/2022/12/carnival-corporation-to-trim-down-cruise-newbuilding-pace/?feed_id=35&_unique_id=63a990e6f184d&fbclid=IwAR0oU5z-oZGwahcuy3PoExrr13irUj1KrzgczWdvJj4PtchvGCDwCf2fIMQ 

[Guest ldtr]

The pricing structure of HAL will not support new ships smaller than their more recent build. This is both from a construction point of view as well as operational efficiency.  Even with current ship sizes fares will probably increase by 25% over the next year. If you want Azmara or Oceania size ships, expect to pay their prices which are much more.

 

HALs future competitive position is pretty clear. Having the smallest avg fleet size of the mainstream lines, coupled with the longest average itinerary length, and more unique itineraries than the other mainstream lines.. They are not going to compete with the premium lines ship sizes.

[ski ww]

As long as they build them with real Promenade decks again. On sea days we love to find a deck chair on the Promenade, read a book.  

[YXU AC*SE]

If I were to hazard a guess, a slightly-upsized Pinnacle class. Fincantieri is delivering Queen Anne to Cunard in 2024 which is really a slightly-stretched Rotterdam by 75' with 2' added to the beam.  Tonnage would increase to 113k (https://www.cunard.com/content/dam/cunard/inventory-assets/ships/QA/0/decks/QA_accessible_deckplan_apr2022a.pdf) and pax count would be just under 3000 based on double lower berth occupancy.     Scott.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by YXU AC*SE

[PACD_JG]

Wishful thinking.  I'll put a $5 spot that HAL sells a ship or two before they ever build a new one.

Edited March 2, 2023 by PACD_JG

[SummmerInKefalonia]

As someone already said, Carnival Group has already announced it will not order any new ships for the near future.

But I still expect to maybe do some inside movements to ships.

Island Princess, Coral Princess & Arcadia are good candidates for HAL.

Also they can try to remove the less efficient ships from their brands, so Volendam & Zaandam eventually will be retired.

[CNSJ]

1 hour ago, PACD_JG said:

Wishful thinking.  I'll put a $5 spot that HAL sells a ship or two before they ever build a new one.

If they sold the remaining R-class and replaced it with a Pinnacle class they would have a net same amount of passengers with less operating costs.  1 Captain, 1 Chief Engineer, 1 Hotel Mgr.... etc.

 

Realize that many on this forum would jump off a bridge at the thought....

[CNSJ]

1 hour ago, YXU AC*SE said:

If I were to hazard a guess, a slightly-upsized Pinnacle class. Fincantieri is delivering Queen Anne to Cunard in 2024 which is really a slightly-stretched Rotterdam by 75' with 2' added to the beam.  Tonnage would increase to 113k (https://www.cunard.com/content/dam/cunard/inventory-assets/ships/QA/0/decks/QA_accessible_deckplan_apr2022a.pdf) and pax count would be just under 3000 based on double lower berth occupancy.     Scott.

 

 

 

 

Appears the extra length is in the bump out section in the middle.  Queen Anne has same Promenade Deck width constraints aft near dining room.  Using same design saves a bunch of money in naval architecture costs. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

55 minutes ago, CNSJ said:

Appears the extra length is in the bump out section in the middle.  Queen Anne has same Promenade Deck width constraints aft near dining room.  Using same design saves a bunch of money in naval architecture costs. 

 

Carnival corp has a history of re-using designs. HAL has 4 Vistas, Cunard has 2, Costa has some (sadly, minus one). I don't know how many others are out there. And the Signatures (not Pinnacles) are basically stretched Vistas, not a start-from-scratch design.

Edited March 2, 2023 by 3rdGenCunarder

[terrydtx]

IMO the Vista and R class ships do not have the variety of specialty restaurants that the Signature and Pinnacle class ships offer. I read that HAL is experimenting with a Tamarind light concept on the Westerdam that replaces Canaletto for several days on its cruises. I would love to see this go fleetwide to the R and Vista's. We sail on our first Pinnacle ship in November and we hope one is available in 2025 for Alaska cruises. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

21 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

IMO the Vista and R class ships do not have the variety of specialty restaurants that the Signature and Pinnacle class ships offer. I read that HAL is experimenting with a Tamarind light concept on the Westerdam that replaces Canaletto for several days on its cruises. I would love to see this go fleetwide to the R and Vista's. We sail on our first Pinnacle ship in November and we hope one is available in 2025 for Alaska cruises. 

 

Cunard has been doing this for years, with several different options in rotation. Like Canaletto, it's in a section of the buffet that can be closed off from the rest of it.

 

I have two long (for me) cruises on Zaandam next year. 21 days and 24 days. I would love to be able to have some version of Tamarind available. 

[JeffElizabeth]

9 hours ago, ldtr said:

The pricing structure of HAL will not support new ships smaller than their more recent build. This is both from a construction point of view as well as operational efficiency.  Even with current ship sizes fares will probably increase by 25% over the next year. If you want Azmara or Oceania size ships, expect to pay their prices which are much more.

 

HALs future competitive position is pretty clear. Having the smallest avg fleet size of the mainstream lines, coupled with the longest average itinerary length, and more unique itineraries than the other mainstream lines.. They are not going to compete with the premium lines ship sizes.

Exactly! I think their next ship will be Konigsdam scale.  They will probably lose us as customers. We are doing our last big 28 day cruise on the Zuiderdam, Boston to Boston, but after that our next two cruises are booked on 1200 passenger Viking and Oceania ships. We are tired of the giant industrial ports, no walkable access to the towns. 

[OlsSalt]

Since HAL daily creates interesting Pan-Asian cuisine for its multi-national crew, seems like it would be an easy extension to offer more of this dining variety to the upstairs passengers.

 

Either as a special dining room or section, or part of a regular MDR menu (not  as it is now, as a special menu request).

[JeffElizabeth]

3 hours ago, SummmerInKefalonia said:

As someone already said, Carnival Group has already announced it will not order any new ships for the near future.

But I still expect to maybe do some inside movements to ships.

Island Princess, Coral Princess & Arcadia are good candidates for HAL.

Also they can try to remove the less efficient ships from their brands, so Volendam & Zaandam eventually will be retired.

Makes sense. I think there will be more shakeout in the cruise industry.  I expect a couple more lines to fail as interest rates rise and they have to refinance.  Norwegian looks like it will have a couple tough quarters coming up. Why build a new boat at 8% interest when you could buy a fire sale Norwegian ship. 

[OlsSalt]

2 hours ago, CNSJ said:

If they sold the remaining R-class and replaced it with a Pinnacle class they would have a net same amount of passengers with less operating costs.  1 Captain, 1 Chief Engineer, 1 Hotel Mgr.... etc.

 

Realize that many on this forum would jump off a bridge at the thought....

 

 

...........Man Overboard ......Man Overboard ..........😬   (Moi)

 

Cost of operations balanced by ROI. Small can still work. Let's see how Fred Olson deploying the old Rotterdam and Amsterdam pencils out - plus they do carry higher maintenance costs as older ships.

[terrydtx]

25 minutes ago, JeffElizabeth said:

Exactly! I think their next ship will be Konigsdam scale.  They will probably lose us as customers. We are doing our last big 28 day cruise on the Zuiderdam, Boston to Boston, but after that our next two cruises are booked on 1200 passenger Viking and Oceania ships. We are tired of the giant industrial ports, no walkable access to the towns. 

I am afraid the smaller ship cruises of the future will only be on the premium or luxury lines. Cost per passenger ratios are too favorable for the cruise lines on bigger ships for mainstream cruise companies. I am surprised the Volendam and Zaandam are still in the fleet. We are booked next year on the Volendam for a Boston to Montreal cruise in a Vista Suite for about half the price on Oceania for the same length and itinerary. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

47 minutes ago, OlsSalt said:

 

 

...........Man Overboard ......Man Overboard ..........😬   (Moi)

 

Cost of operations balanced by ROI. Small can still work. Let's see how Fred Olson deploying the old Rotterdam and Amsterdam pencils out - plus they do carry higher maintenance costs as older ships.

 

Fred Olson's business model is based on buying "pre-loved" ships. They've been successful for many years. Perhaps because their passengers know they'll be on an old (but well kept) ship, they don't expect too many bells and whistles. So many people want the newest and biggest with the most restaurants and amusement rides. I don't mind an older ship. I always said QE2 was the love of my traveling life, and she was nearly 40 when I said goodbye to her (and cried).

 

[*Miss G*]

27 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I am surprised the Volendam and Zaandam are still in the fleet.

 

We were told at the October Ask the Captain that a ship’s lifespan is 25 years, after which they are sold or a decision is made to keep it in service.  Looks like we won’t have long to wait to find out.

 

Zaandam:   Built April 1999 (24 years)

Volendam:  Built September 1998 (25 years)

 

The smaller ships start generating revenue at/near capacity.  The Pinnacle ships start generating revenue at 60-70% capacity.

 

I can’t see a new-build smaller ship but I can see them refurbishing one+ of their older ships.  I do hope they keep both Pinnacle-size and the smaller ones in service as I like both products.  (And would sail the smaller ones more often if they refurbished.)

 

Since the Zaandam is currently receiving upgrades I imagine the decision was made to keep her.  I do not know if the Volendam has been receiving upgrades so perhaps someone who knows can comment.

[terrydtx]

7 minutes ago, *Miss G* said:

Since the Zaandam is currently receiving upgrades I imagine the decision was made to keep her.  I do not know if the Volendam has been receiving upgrades so perhaps someone who knows can comment.

From what I have been told the Volendam was refurbished in 2022. 

 

The biggest thing dictating keeping older ships may be the resale market for them. CCL during the pandemic got rid of many of their aging fleet built prior to 2000. A couple of their older ships even went to the scrap yards during Covid. HAL still has some interesting itineraries that the smaller R class ships are ideal for that without them might not happen, like our Volendam cruise next year.

Edited March 2, 2023 by terrydtx

[rothbury]

Was on the Nieuw Statendam last week at a Q&A with Rene Tuinman, the Hotel Services Manager.  Someone asked the question about future builds for HAL.  His answer was there are no plans currently to build any HAL ships out for the next 5 years.

On another note for those interested; he said the NS would be undergoing an overhaul in November.  Gave no details about what would be accomplished beyond mentioning things like carpets and everyday consumables.

[AFNavigator]

1 hour ago, rothbury said:

On another note for those interested; he said the NS would be undergoing an overhaul in November.  Gave no details about what would be accomplished beyond mentioning things like carpets and everyday consumables.

I believe that's the NS's first scheduled recurring drydock.  It probably would have occurred in 2021 or 2022 if not for the COVID shutdown.